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posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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Is the parent post here trying to imply, that, if we go back to a system of taxing -- you know, before Reagan, where CEOs don't make 600 times the average worker's salary, and that I might actually have a living wage, that I will be LESS valued?

Is half this country brainwashed? We used to pay for our roads and bridges. You can also save money by not changing the oil on your car -- but eventually, you will pay more for repairing that car when the engine burns up. Since the poor and middle class have seen a gradual reduction in buying power -- you know, things like food, college and housing, since the 1980's, we certainly cannot be shouldering the same amount of burden as the wealthy, who get to live in a country where they can be on a board of directors, voting each other a raise, and trying to pretend that some free Market decided that a CEO on a failing company can make a $2 Million dollar bonus.

We do not have business or work in this nation without rules. Everything is arbitrary. Minimum wage is arbitrary. The free market is only some term -- it doesn't exist. What they are really talking about is anarchy, where those with the most power dictate the rules. We should just wait until the banks and phone companies consolidate again, and they they tell us how much we are worth, and how much they are going to charge us.

Both competition and cooperation are necessary. The idea that everything can be "left up to the markets" is a childish idea and needs to be grown out of just as we do with Santa Claus.




posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 12:20 PM
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Its been 3 days since Obama became President elect. I remember the day after the Beatle's were on the T.V. & my parent's & the rest of the adult world were ready to have Holy Coniption fits & how we were all going to hell in a hand basket. That Revolution was Groovy Baby & now we're in the midst of another one & my guess is I'll still be around to tell about how "Back in the day some folks went into coniption fits over a radical new change in our Government ( African American & young President) & some went bersrk & started acting sorta mongoloid & hearin voices & seein things that wasn't there & I'll lift my glass to them & say.......Shoot low boys they're ridin Shetland Ponies.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 12:32 PM
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To get off the ground, most any alternative energy solution will REQUIRE government support. The "free market" folks, think that roads and trains just build themselves. Maybe we should have different companies compete for roads? I might need three cars so that they will be compatible with the GM road -- just like the different chargers I need for cell phones. Does any house NOT have 25 old cell phone chargers lying around?

The PROBLEM with Green Energy is also its promise: It will take a massive infrastructure investment to make it available -- meaning, no business can pony up the cash to create for instance, hydrogen fueling stations. And AFTER we have algae, methane, solar and other sources of energy -- a small startup will be able to do it on an ad hoc basis.

Some company like Exxon, is not going to spend $100 Billion to create the infrastructure where everyone can get involved in competing with them for energy creation.

So the business model of making profits is very speculative at best. High investment, and then no guarantee of return.

But for the rest of us, it means much lower prices, lots of jobs, and entrepreneurial opportunities. Things that fat-cat Globalists hate.


******

reply to post by Jadette
 


Thanks. That one graphic should say it all; THE SUM TOTAL of Republican prosperity was immediate gratification purchased on a credit card. We don't have money for things like Universal Healthcare, because we have insurance company lobbyists bribing congress and because when the Democrats get control -- they are always paying off for the party that the Republicans had.

Every time we have the "Royalists" who support every largess of the "ownership class" get control for 3 successive administrations, or economy tanks. Every. Damn. Time. Then we re-learn what we knew 80 years ago and realize that we have to have regulations and oversight.

All wealth in this country is created by people working -- it is not created by money. Money seeks to make profits, and must be invested in things that create value. How does value get created by invested money? Work. There has been a huge investment in training people to think like Peons, and to welcome trickle-down economics, but this is eventually unsupportable. The current recession, which could go to a total depression, is the result of consumers having supported the current market boom with their own debt. There IS NO MORE MONEY for us to buy things -- therefore the market is going to slow down, and people are going to get laid off.

When Bush lowered your taxes, he borrowed money for an even bigger tax cut for the rich. He also borrowed money for the war. You might think that lower federal taxes saves you money, but then you pay more for all the little things, like education, energy, daycare, and a thousand fees that the states start tacking on things to make up budget shortfalls. Your money also becomes less valuable as the fed prints more of it. The government could have ZERO taxes, but as long as there are Bombers to build -- they will just print money. What do you think would be the end result of that? Maybe something like the current banking crisis.

4 of every 5 dollars was off that balance sheet, so the war costed about $4.5 Trillion. Then, he supported Paulson and Bernanke to increase the leverage of banks and financial institutions, so that in 2008, when one of them failed, all of them can fail. The banks don't have any money, because they leveraged it all out. If they lose 1 dollar, they have to sell off $10 in leveraged assets, that causes a ripple effect, because the sale reduces the value of their other, over-leveraged holdings. This is the same damn thing that caused the 1929 Great Depression and it is really hard for me to believe that Greenspan and Henry Paulson made millions of dollars being this stupid.

It is so very clear, that those who push to support the poor and middle class will always be building up an economy, and those who don't allow for progressive taxation and for a living wage, will eventually -- guaranteed, be running the economy into the ground.

Lower taxes for the poor and higher for the rich does not create disincentives. And we've really exaggerated that old saw. Does Donald Trump need to make two million or ten million to keep him working on get rich quick real-estate flipping deals? I really don't care, because he never created anything in his life. As long as you have a middle class with money in their pockets, there will be a bank around ready to invest. If you don't, there is no amount of money you can give a bank to get them to invest in someone who won't pay them back.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 12:34 PM
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reply to post by Gateway
 
we, the american people, are the responsible parties for the decline of the United State of America for failure to trust but verify. we looked the other way and allowed this.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 12:34 PM
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reply to post by HIFIGUY
 


Look..I am all for people helping people. But to make it the law of the land is not right. I do a lot in my community and I by no means am right. If fact I am disabled and on a fixed income. I live a pretty simple life. I'm fine with that. I still find ways I can help other people. but to say that success should be taxes I'm not so comfortable with. It is no more than government sanctioned theft. And I do not think that is a good christian thing to do. You're talking to someone that lives in the middle of Bible country. I know all too well of what you are trying to say. But nowhere in my Bible does it say that anyone owes me or anyone anything because they have more than me.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 01:24 PM
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Its really quite facinating to see that this thread and the american government needs to be over thrown are two of the biggest threads ive seen here in a long time.

I have been here nearly sense the very begining on the old ezboard and I cant remember many times when a thread got more then 30 posts. I look at things this way.

150 million people voted in the presidental election of 2008 in the united states. There are 300 million people that live in the united states 150 million people did not vote. The republican party lost this election and the election of 2006.

75 million people voted republican in this election and didnt win 150 million + 75 million is 225 million people that have no say in what goes on in there government vers 75 million who supported the democrat's in this election.

Over 100 million people own guns in the united states and not all of them are republicans or democrats. I believe that 150 million people that in my view boycotted this election tells me that I am on the right side by not voting and being one of the 150 million american majority that told in a silent voice for now I want nothing to do with what you think is best for me exc exc.

I think it will take about 1 to 3 months with that amount of people that both have no longer any say so in the direction if they ever did of there country before there will start to be a backlash. Anyone who has read any legislation that clinton and other democrat's have passed knows what they get away with.

Alot of people have speculated what would gore have done I believe and im sorry to say it that gore would have followed exactly in bush's footsepts perhaps without the 2 illegal wars that are now going on but I believe that gore would have gone along with the same kind of legislation.

The difference between now and 8 years ago is alot more people that were not aware of how there future was going to turn out as a result of the people that have been pulling the strings on there way of life are now more aware then ever before.

I think it may take a few months but I still am going to maintain that people wont stand for anymore of what's been going on in there elected leaders positions. Call it a guess.

Thats my 2 cents for now.

Falcon

Viva la france.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 02:23 PM
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Is it just me or do the conservatives want to deny the poor people of this country a fair shake at the American dream and just pick on them as
lazy people with out ambition. Just easy scapegoats for the elrushbo devotees.

Then on the other hand completely ignore the corporate welfare state.

gbgm-umc.org...

Perhaps the reason for Obama's win is because thanks to the www., the people of this great land want a change that reflects a care for the taxpaying citizens rather than the blood sucking corporations that have a staff of lawyers and accountants that know how to avoid paying their fair share thru off shore accounts and sneeky tax law avoidance.

The social programs pale in comparison to the bailouts, subsidies, foreign aid, and hidden black project money.

No wonder the electorate wanted change.

As a small businessman, taxpayer and Republican; I would rather see my tax dollars spent on something like the School lunch program or food stamps than $600 hammers or $18 nuts and bolts that I can buy at Lowe's for 35 cents. Military industrial obscene profiteering needs to stop.



[edit on 7-11-2008 by whaaa]

[edit on 7-11-2008 by whaaa]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by DrumJunkie
I know all too well of what you are trying to say. But nowhere in my Bible does it say that anyone owes me or anyone anything because they have more than me.


The Bible does say this:



"A man planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a pit for the winepress and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 2At harvest time he sent a servant to the tenants to collect from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3But they seized him, beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4Then he sent another servant to them; they struck this man on the head and treated him shamefully. 5He sent still another, and that one they killed. He sent many others; some of them they beat, others they killed.
6"He had one left to send, a son, whom he loved. He sent him last of all, saying, 'They will respect my son.' 7"But the tenants said to one another, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.' 8So they took him and killed him, and threw him out of the vineyard.

9"What then will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10Haven't you read this scripture: "

'The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone;
the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes'"


We as a people have had much time to produce a harvest. We continue to perceive the vineyard and all its produce as our own. We build fences and borders and create laws that profit the few while limiting the man.

Jesus said thier are two types of Sons of man.

Now we can do what is your right, or you can do what is right.

Do the right thing as a people. In the OT God selected individuals and community alike holding themselves and their generations accountable for their actions. It is no different today.

Even Jesus spoke again on this regarding crime and beggary versus doing what is right. You are very well right that no one is forcing you.

Love one another, as I have loved you was an asking and a COMMAND.


Jesus said, Behold the honoured men of all Samaria! the men ordained to lead the people in the way of right. 20 And I am come to help,and not to hinder in their work. 21 There are two classes of the sons of men; they who would build the human race upon the sure foundation stones of justice, truth, equality and right, 22 And they who would destroy the holy temple where the Spirit dwells and bring their fellows down to beggary and crime. 23 The holy brotherhood of right must stand united in the stirring conflicts of the hour. 24 No matter whether they be Jews, Samaritans, Assyrians, or Greeks, they must tramp down beneath their feet all strife, all discord, jealousy and hate, and demonstrate the brotherhood of man.


Right is right, and good people know what good is. Simple as that.
The infectious behavior of greed, ego, and personal gain in the name of individual freedom that has construed that freedom into an abomination walking over the prosperity and rights of peoples of other nations as well as our own, is in my mind deplorable and shameful.

Peace


[edit on 7-11-2008 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 05:33 PM
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Socialist??? How ignorant can you be.

Obama is center at most. In fact in Europe he wouldn't be even moderate left.

The former Soviet Union was socialist. Cuba is socialist. Venezuela is turning socialist.

USA is not and will never be socialist. Buy yourself a brain.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 06:38 PM
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You are wasting your breath debating the surpluses under clinton. Under Clinton's years in office our national debt went up a TRILLION bucks!!! I'd encourage you to look it up. Maybe I was looking at the numbers wrong but that is what they told me. I think its an epic failure that during the greatest influx of wealth the world has ever known, a country could and did build up a massive debt!


I merely asked for a source. Preferably a neutral (i.e., non-partisan) one. Have one?



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 08:55 PM
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The USSA is right. How sad for our great country to go completely down the tubes. Now the dem's want to take our 401k's too. Well if they want to redistribute my "wealth" then they can redistribute my debt too.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by whaaa
As a small businessman, taxpayer and Republican; I would rather see my tax dollars spent on something like the School lunch program or food stamps than $600 hammers or $18 nuts and bolts that I can buy at Lowe's for 35 cents. Military industrial obscene profiteering needs to stop.


I have a question for you. Who's more at fault:

The knuckleheads in the military supply system that buy the $600 hammers?

Or the suppliers that are selling them to the military for that price?

I remember an article where an Admiral that was running a program and called a supplier about washers. He identified himself as Mr Smith and was quoted a price of a doller per 100 washers.

He then called the same supplier about the same washers, but identified himself as Admiral Smith. Funny, the price for the same washers went up to $50 per 100 washers.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 09:28 PM
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reply to post by xxpigxx
 



I think that they (blacks) and the rest of America voted for Obama simply because he was the best man for the job, because he ran a superior campain, because he had the best ideas which resonated with most Americans, because he is was a representation of what America looks like and stands for, because he was more strategic in his message, because he was smarter. The McCain campain was completely out-worked, out planned and quite frankly out-classed. America is in a # hole financially, socially and politically. Now who in there right mind wants 4 more years of that? People talk about the American dream, now Obama truly embodies what the American dream is. He is the American dream. He proves that with hard work, determination and resilence that in American anything is possible. And this is why America will regain its status as a place thats loved and admired by the world.



posted on Nov, 8 2008 @ 02:51 PM
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Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by whaaa
As a small businessman, taxpayer and Republican; I would rather see my tax dollars spent on something like the School lunch program or food stamps than $600 hammers or $18 nuts and bolts that I can buy at Lowe's for 35 cents. Military industrial obscene profiteering needs to stop.


I have a question for you. Who's more at fault:

The knuckleheads in the military supply system that buy the $600 hammers?

Or the suppliers that are selling them to the military for that price?


Perhaps the scum sucking pigs that instituted the no bid system and the
pigs that support them. Who do you think that is?

If Obama can reverse that trend; it should save the taxpayers a bundle.

[edit on 8-11-2008 by whaaa]



posted on Nov, 8 2008 @ 06:54 PM
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I'm so damn tired of this black-and-white view that you either have to be a hardliner free-marketeer, or else you're an outright socialist. Let's get real. If you look at the political spectrum as a whole, from Hitler to Stalin and everything inbetween, Obama falls just slightly to the left of Bush. America will be fine.

Even if Obama is a secret-ultra-hardliner-socialist, he will move to the center because he still has enact policies that are palettable to the center-right American public. Some of his comments about "redistribution" have been tin-eared and downright sloppy, but we have to remember there's a larger political system that will keep him in check.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 02:21 AM
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reply to post by HIFIGUY
 


You still don't get to the point. And that is to wish to offer some of what you have to those that don't is great. But where is it the governments job to apply this? Right or wrong as to what and how people should co-exist to take something against the rightful owners will is theft. You can quote scripture till the cows come home but we are still left with this simple truth.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 07:20 AM
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reply to post by DrumJunkie
 


Our Government buys 500 dollar hammers without your approval.
Our Government buys guns and bullets and bombs without your approval.
Our Government pays welfare and an assortment of assistance on a massive scale every day without your approval.

You make it sound like this is some kind of new thing lol.

Its a Republic. A representative Government that defends the Republic for which it stands.

Rather then guns and bullets and bombs, it appears that some of that money will go towards actually helping the American public in the form of tax breaks, health care, and social systems that help more of us then the trickle down theory that let the tree die and everyone that depended on it.

Caesar can do with the money what Caesar wants. Bush did it, and so will the current administration. You can write letters till your blue in the face, and just like the bail out, it didn't make one iota of difference.

The Government does as it sees fit and I for one, am applauding the change that is about to take place. A step in the right direction, and a lesson of compassion for those of selfish nature in America.

Peace


[edit on 9-11-2008 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 08:14 AM
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Originally posted by pexx421
no, actually fascism is from the right, as capitalism is pushed to the extreme where the corporations gain the power to disrupt the political system and push legislation that benefits them at expense of the people.

But in socialism, contrary to your statement, the means of production are not necessarily owned by the government, they can be owned by the businesses, however, the PROFIT, or at least some of it, is used for the people. Thats what socialism is, nationalization of profit for benefit of citizens.


Sorry but you've either got some MAJOR rose tinted glasses on or believe that a government like the USA's is going to suddenly turn leftist Libertarian all of a sudden if you believe that.
Socialism, in reality means more intrusion and more government oversight.
Socialism is all about CONTROL.
Capitalism is about FREEDOM for the individual, it just needs to be applied correctly. Which is hasn't been for a good few years.

Yes US folk the USSA is a very possible outcome. God help you over there folks.



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by WatchRider
Socialism is all about CONTROL.

And Capitalism isn't? If given the choice in terms of whats best for all the people Id take altruistic socialism rather then corporate fascism.


Originally posted by WatchRider
Capitalism is about FREEDOM for the individual, it just needs to be applied correctly.


Capitalism historically up to the present day, from Enron, Exxon, the banking industry, etc; the FREEDOM you talk about has been abused at a gross level. The economy under a free market hemorrhage's unnecessarily from corporate and free market leverage that in the name of profit does what is legally right even if it is NOT the right thing to do.

Your statement is almost exactly backwards. Capitalism is all about CONTROL. Controlling markets, and the competitor. Walmart, a business concept gone global is everywhere. And one merely needs to read the news to see those Americans that are against it despite living in a " Free Market " economy.

What our Republic is seeing now days, is that the corporations that were the backbone she supported, taking liberties with the free market and the people that were unethical, illegal and immoral.

Peace


[edit on 9-11-2008 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 06:55 PM
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reply to post by gizmohd
 
Gone was the day Bush stole office eight years ago. Let me guess you voted Republican and you still belive Bush / Republicans did a good job while in office.



TextThe nation’s jobless ranks zoomed past 10 million last month, the most in a quarter-century, as piles of pink slips shut factory gates and office doors to 240,000 more Americans with the holidays nearing. Politicians and economists agreed on a painful bottom line: It’s only going to get worse.
the above from www.boom2bust.com...



TextBy Les Christie, CNNMoney.com staff writer-NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Foreclosure filings in the first three months of 2008 rose more than 112% over last year, according to a study released Tuesday. Real estate information firm RealtyTrac reported that nearly 650,000 foreclosure filings - which include notices of default, auction sales and bank repossessions - were issued in the first quarter. That represents 1 of every 194 households and marks a 23% increase from the last quarter of 2007. Foreclosures increased in 46 states and in 90 of the nation's 100 largest metro areas. Some regions that had been only marginally hurt by the mortgage meltdown recorded large increases in filings. In Connecticut, for instance, filings tripled compared with the first three months of 2007. Massachusetts recorded a 260% increase.


CBS/AP) The Census Bureau reports that 12.5 percent of Americans, or 37.3 million people, were living in poverty in 2007, up from 36.5 million in 2006.

“Lack of health insurance causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United States. Although America leads the world in spending on health care, it is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure that all citizens have coverage.” —Institute of Medicine

How is it that citizens in countries with free health care systems (France, Canada, and UK) have longer life expectancy rates than Americans? I told my husband last week we should consider moving to France. He looked at me like I was crazy. But France has the best health care in the world and its free!

We Americans are often quick to turn our noses up at at other countries. We often think we are better and have all of the answers. Perhaps its part of our conditioning or mis-education. We are spoon fed lies that we actually believe about the evils of free health care for every American. Our American wisdom tells us that free health care for all Americans is too much like socialism and socialized health care is the enemy… If so called socialized programs are destructive then how do we explain our current systems for police, fireman, schools, and libraries?

I wonder if the reason American's are year by year having a lower quality of life due to our military spending? YA THINK? DUHHH

As our people grow sicker and deeper in debt with medical bills or die from inadequate medical care; health insurance and health service providers like Humana are literally raking in Six BILLION Dollars! What is wrong with this picture?

“I live in the richest place in the world…
at war gainst itself…over wealth…
its greed instead of feed…
less fortunate barely have the skills to read…”



TextFor FY 2008, the Bush administration has requested $647.3 billion to cover the costs of national defense and war. This includes the Defense Department budget ($483 billion), some smaller defense-related accounts ($22.6 billion), and the projected FY 2008 cost of Iraq, Afghanistan, and counter-terror operations ($141.7 billion). However, it does not include non-DOD expenditures for homeland security ($36.4 billion) or the Veterans' Affairs budget ($84.4 billion). Nor does it include the request for supplemental funds for outstanding FY 2007 war costs ($93.4 billion).

TextFor FY 2008, the Bush administration has requested $647.3 billion to cover the costs of national defense and war. This includes the Defense Department budget ($483 billion), some smaller defense-related accounts ($22.6 billion), and the projected FY 2008 cost of Iraq, Afghanistan, and counter-terror operations ($141.7 billion). However, it does not include non-DOD expenditures for homeland security ($36.4 billion) or the Veterans' Affairs budget ($84.4 billion). Nor does it include the request for supplemental funds for outstanding FY 2007 war costs ($93.4 billion).




TextThe $647.3 billion request represents a 75 percent real increase over the post-Cold War low-point in national defense spending, which occurred in 1996. Today's expenditures are higher in inflation-adjusted terms than peak spending during the Vietnam and Korean wars -- as well as higher than during the Reagan buildup



TextOne way of appreciating the significance of this change is to view it in terms of world military spending. Whereas the United States accounted for 28 percent of world defense expenditures in 1986 and 34 percent in 1994, it today accounts for approximately 50 percent.

Above quotes taken from www.comw.org...

Now please read: Naomi Wolf's "The End of America" which explains all the "adjustments" we have had to the American Constitution over the last eight years.

So many problems from a president and party that was incapable of managing without greed and so many sheeple out there still kissing the hand that is slowly strangling them and because of selfish pride refusing to even give the new president a chance, all because "he isn't Republican". tsk tsk.



[edit on 9-11-2008 by ofhumandescent]





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