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posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by dave420
 


Just a thought Dave, how much of your paycheck are you willing to give up, aside from social security, local, state, and federal taxes you already pay?

Don't get me wrong, I am all for helping the disabled, elderly, and veterans.




posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:13 PM
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Not everyone strives to the same goals. Not everyone measures happiness by the same measure. There is room for divergent opinions and points-of-view in this country without marginalizing anyone.
reply to post by jtma508
 


I agree with you on this. If only we didn't have the Feds trying to throw us all in one basket.

We're supposed to be free to choose... if people want to be socialists, why do I have to be one? If socialism is so great, then why must it coerce people to its ends to prove itself so? Give me my freedom, and I may choose to cooperate and be a contributor, a creator, an artist. If I must be coerced, then I am nothing but a slave.

The Establishment spews its contrived feel- good rhetoric all over the airwaves to the exclusion of almost all else; 24/7, blah, blah, blah, and they do it to control you, me, and everybody else. It's an illusion, but the beast is beginning to show itself. You know your government is corrupt when they begin to require your personal liberties in order to "solve" the problems of the nation.

Don't listen to them, don't trust them... once they have all the power, the people may never get it back.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by gizmohd
 

Your questions bring up on very important question. Have any of these things happened?
The man is still 2 plus months from taking office and you have decided the course of history for the forseeable future. What actual evidence for this do you have. A rational man bases his decisions on actual evidence, Not conjecture. So if we are to be rational men we must wait to make our decisions based on fact. I for one know very little about this man. I certainly don't trust anything in a blog. The media must all be fact checked before anything they print is believable. This requires thinking, and doing research to verify, or disprove, what ever statements are made. I intend to act as a real rational man and get the verifiable facts before I add to my own stress. There is enough that is bad about our current situation without manufacturing any more. Thank you, Steven Doyle



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 03:25 PM
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Something I made to commemorate this post.





posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 05:27 PM
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ok he`s just plain stupid ...
man do you have any idea what you`re talking about?

this is why americans are considered to be fat, ugly ans stupid ... people as ignorant as he is.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by sickofitall2012
Don't get me wrong, I am all for helping the disabled, elderly, and veterans.


How do you feel about taxpayers bailing out corporations?
Taxpayer funded subsidies to oil companies that show huge profits?
Enormous foreign aid to rich countries like Israel?
Subsidies to megafarms not to grow crops for market manipulation?

www.greenleft.org.au...

Thats where most of your tax dollars go. Not social programs to help the poor.

[edit on 6-11-2008 by whaaa]



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 07:58 PM
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reply to post by gizmohd
 


The only reason you say that all those bad things will happen to our country is because a white man is not president. In your eyes only a white man can uphold the American Dream. You show your fear.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 08:05 PM
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reply to post by secretstash
 

IF.....you didn't have....what you call... "illegal aliens". Who would.....pick the fruit? Plant the crops? Do the cooking? Mind the children? Clean the house? Work at menial tasks? Live in squalor? Without rights. And subject themselves to rascist remarks? America is built on the backs of the underpriviledged and the dis-enfranchised. Get over it.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 08:41 PM
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Originally posted by Venit
reply to post by gizmohd
 


The republican party lost all credibility it had with financial matters when it managed to wipe out Clinton's surplus and leave the United States with a deficit. Add to that Bush's rampant deregulisation of the financial systems that helped get us into this mess and Obama has got to lose his sting for those afraid of him for whatever reason.

Oh, and another thing, Obama's not a socialist, if you want to see what socialism really is i suggest you look outside the boundaries of America. Obama is, in fact, a moderate conservative compared to us here in the E.U


Bill Clinton's "surplus" was merely the result of creative accounting. They do it in Hollywood all of the time. How I tire of the comments about how the Republicans "wiped out Clinton's surplus", while never, ever mentioning that we were attacked and are at war, a very costly business. Disingenuous to say the least.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 09:43 PM
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Bill Clinton's "surplus" was merely the result of creative accounting. They do it in Hollywood all of the time. How I tire of the comments about how the Republicans "wiped out Clinton's surplus", while never, ever mentioning that we were attacked and are at war, a very costly business. Disingenuous to say the least.


First, could you please provide a source for your "creative accounting" claim? It could be true but I'd like to have something more concrete to support it if you've got that in your quiver. Next up, I don't think it's at all disingenuous to hold Bush and his Republican cohorts responsible for the massive military spending that depleted the surplus you claim was merely a product of "creative accounting". Many people in the United States and in the world thought attacking Afghanistan was nuts, let alone Iraq. You make it sound like it could hardly be avoided, but I would certainly beg to differ. We were not attacked by a sovereign state, but we've spent hundreds of thousands of lives and billions of dollars warring against sovereign states to respond to the action of a dispersed group operating out of any number of countries. Further, there are strong arguments suggesting that "dispersed group" isn't a cohesive organization at all, merely a flag that's popularly rallied around by disenfranchised Muslims. There are also strong arguments that the explanation for 9/11 is, to be conservative about it, quite lacking.

In light of all this, then, I think it's fair to argue that many people have perfectly legitimate reasons for believing that money was squandered and that our people would have been better off not having spent our money and our clout invading Afghanistan and Iraq.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by JohnnyElohim


Bill Clinton's "surplus" was merely the result of creative accounting. They do it in Hollywood all of the time. How I tire of the comments about how the Republicans "wiped out Clinton's surplus", while never, ever mentioning that we were attacked and are at war, a very costly business. Disingenuous to say the least.


First, could you please provide a source for your "creative accounting" claim? It could be true but I'd like to have something more concrete to support it if you've got that in your quiver. Next up, I don't think it's at all disingenuous to hold Bush and his Republican cohorts responsible for the massive military spending that depleted the surplus you claim was merely a product of "creative accounting". Many people in the United States and in the world thought attacking Afghanistan was nuts, let alone Iraq. You make it sound like it could hardly be avoided, but I would certainly beg to differ. We were not attacked by a sovereign state, but we've spent hundreds of thousands of lives and billions of dollars warring against sovereign states to respond to the action of a dispersed group operating out of any number of countries. Further, there are strong arguments suggesting that "dispersed group" isn't a cohesive organization at all, merely a flag that's popularly rallied around by disenfranchised Muslims. There are also strong arguments that the explanation for 9/11 is, to be conservative about it, quite lacking.

In light of all this, then, I think it's fair to argue that many people have perfectly legitimate reasons for believing that money was squandered and that our people would have been better off not having spent our money and our clout invading Afghanistan and Iraq.


You are wasting your breath debating the surpluses under clinton. Under Clinton's years in office our national debt went up a TRILLION bucks!!! I'd encourage you to look it up. Maybe I was looking at the numbers wrong but that is what they told me. I think its an epic failure that during the greatest influx of wealth the world has ever known, a country could and did build up a massive debt!

[edit on 6-11-2008 by truthquest]



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 11:21 PM
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posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 11:55 PM
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Hey OP apparently you haven't heard the news, Obama won not McCain, you must be confused.

And to all the lamers complaining about the American Flag pin not being worn, do you even own one and wear one at all..... ever?

Bush wore one, look what he did to our Country.

Yeah, that's what I thought.


[edit on 7-11-2008 by porschedrifter]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by porschedrifter
 



wtf does american flag pins have to do with anything? Some phony BS manufactored by some idiot you saw on tv to create division between two candidates that have the same policies to try and fool you into ignoring real issues?

Also to all you democrat leftest who are fooled into your michael moore fantasy about the evil corporations with their money corrupting the moral government which would overwise be saving us from each other. How about you think for a second about how what is essentially a private citizen who has no power can control a government. The campaign contributions candidates recieve are tributes not bribes. The government is what is corrupt. The government is what makes the laws. It has the police power. It has the tax power. It starts the wars. Those industries haliburton, blackwater, and the arms industry are not independent in the capitalist tradition they exist to serve the government are funded by it, and thus are simply an arm of it.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 02:58 AM
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I own and wear a flag pin every day.
I get a little misty when I hear the National Anthem.
And I think Obama was not the best choice.
I guess I'm lame too.

I choose to wait until I have something to complain about before I'll get into an argument like this but I understand why people are getting so involved.

I hear people saying that we should be trying to raise every ones standard of living. No matter where they are. Why? People go after their wealth and it's theirs. If I Started a business and want to put a million bucks in the bank who is anyone to say what I am do do with it. If I want to keep it around the house and roll around in it it's mine and no one has the right to say otherwise. You want it? go make it. I am so tired of hearing how anyone with money is a thief and should be flogged. I'm sure there are bad people that are rich. Bit to say that I have too much and need to give it away is insane. If I"m hungry and I come to your house and demand that you give me money because I have none that makes me a thief and I will go to jail.

I have watched all the speeches and I am a little nervous but I keep hoping that it will be more BS and he will have to see that it ain't easy to effect change when there are people that want to kill us because we have a Macdonalds on the corner. I don't like the idea that the new President thinks the Constitution is flawed and needs changed. Many fought and died to protect that document. Sure the U.S. has problems. But the basis on what this country is founded on was and is sound. The idea that we can complain about it at all is taken for granted. A lot of this thread would not been allowed on some places.

So..Lets sit back and see how it goes first. At this point there's nothing that can be done right now anyway. If he does well I'll be the first to say I was wrong. I do hope that I am. But if I"m not those that are I do hope will step up and admit the same.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 03:23 AM
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Socialists like to kill developing fetuses - they allow and encourage it.





[edit on 7-11-2008 by TruthTellist]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 04:40 AM
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Originally posted by DrumJunkie
If I"m hungry and I come to your house and demand that you give me money because I have none that makes me a thief and I will go to jail.


I will share a story with you about Jesus and the thief. As it applies to your statement. Those who have plenty while the poor are hungry and without covering many times are blind to injustice. Read this lesser told story about Jesus, and see if a greater good is not in order for those less fortunate.


A MULTITUDE of people thronged the streets. The officers were on the way to court withone, a man accused of stealing bread. 2 And in a little while the man was brought before the judge to answer to the charge. 3 And Jesus and the twelve were there. The man showed in his face and hands the hard drawn lines of toil and want. 4A woman richly clad, the accuser of the man, stood forth and said, I caught this man myself: I know him well, for yesterday he came to beg for bread. 5 And when I drove him from my door, he should have known that I would harbour not a man like him; and then to-day he came and took the bread. 6 He is a thief and I demand that he be sent to jail.7 The servants also testified against the man; he was adjudged a thief, and officers were leading him away. 8 But Jesus standing forth exclaimed, You officers and judge, be not in haste to lead this man away. 9 Is this a land of justice and of right? can you accuse and sentence men to punishment for any crime until they testify themselves? 10 The Roman law will not permit such travesty on right, and I demand that you permit this man to speak. 11 And then the judge recalled the man and said, If you have any tale to tell, say on. 12 In tears the man stood forth and said,I have a wife and little ones and they are perishing for bread, and I have told my story oft, and begged for bread; but none would hear. 13 This morning when I left our cheerless hut in search of work my children cried for bread, and I resolved to feed them or to die.14 I took the bread, and I appeal to God, Was it a crime? 15 This woman snatched the loaf away and threw it to the dogs, and called the officers and I am here. 16 Good people, do with me whate'er you will, but save my wife and little ones from death. 17 Then Jesus said, Who is the culprit in this case? 18 I charge this woman as a felon in the sight of God. 19 I charge this judge as criminal before the bar of human rights. 20I charge these servants and these officers as parties to the crime. 21 I charge the people of Capernaum with cruelty and theft, because they heeded not the cries of poverty and want, and have withheld from helpless ones that which is theirs by every law of right; 22 And I appeal unto these people here, and ask, Are not my charges based on righteousness and truth? 23 And every man said, Yes. 24 The accused woman blushed for shame; the judge shrank back in fear; the officers threw off the shackles from the man and ran away. 25 Then Jesus said, Give this man what he needs and let him go and feed his wife and little ones. 26 The people gave abundantly; the man went on his way. 27 And Jesus said, There is no standard law to judge of crime. The facts must all be stated e'er a judgment can be rendered in a case. 28 You men with hearts; go forth and stand where stood this man and answer me, What would you do? 29 The thief thinks every other man a thief and judges him accordingly. 30 The man who judges harshly is the man whose heart is full of crime. 31 The courtesan who keeps her wickedness concealed by what she calls respectability, has not a word of pity for the honest courtesan who claims to be just what she is. 32 I tell you, men, if you would censure not till you are free from sin, the world would soon forget the meaning of the word, accused.


So difficult it is for the rich man to enter the kingdom of God for he despises those that have little.

Socialism?

Try Altruism.

Peace



[edit on 7-11-2008 by HIFIGUY]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 07:52 AM
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i think we should help the poor. i just don't know if it's a good idea to include the government in the loop. they make it really hard to even get the help and they dehumanize you quite a bit in the process. seems we should have something more geared at the city/town level, by volunteers. i realize we have that already, but i mean something more comprehensive. i don't know what would be the best way to do it, but letting the government into the exchange, lowers the amount available in many cases and makes it very hard to get.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 08:00 AM
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reply to post by undo
 



If I choose to give a poor man on the street $1, I give him $1. IF the Gov't takes that $1 from me and redstributes the $1, by the time it gets to the poor man, he only recieves .25c. 75% was consumed by the gov't buearcracy.........



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 08:46 AM
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Clinton's surpluses never implied that the government was in the black. But rather, it was /budgetary/ surplus that was used to pay down the debt.

In other words, say Joe the Plumber has 10,000 dollars in credit card bills. Joe eats mac and cheese for a year and pays his debt down. AND, on top of that, quits putting anything on the credit card.

This is what Clinton did.

When Bush got into office, he changed the budget, therefore 'blowing' the planned surplus by spending it AND going further by putting charges on the credit card as well.



www.cbo.gov...





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