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posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:12 AM
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reply to post by Gateway
 


i think it is a little more complicated than that. It seems to me that American policies for the next 500 years are already mapped out. The only people who can change this are us and that is through working together and not through the existing channels.




posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:17 AM
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reply to post by Gateway
 


Gateway, you seem to think yourself an educated man (?), but your statements on anarchy, and socialism are fudamentaly wrong. Anarchy originated from the communist party during the mid 18 th century. According to Marx, anarchy was supposed to be the end result and objective of a communist state (read Marx, this is explicit).

The anarchist movement split from the communist party, because for some, there was no need for Marx's "transitionary" communist state, on the lines that if a popular revolution occurred, people were ripe for anarchy. To others, and history proves them right, communism gave too much power to the state, and even if the population got educated enough to consider anarchy, the state might not hand over power to the individual.

Make no mistake, true anarchists are extreme leftists. Nevertheless, right wing anarchists (or brown anarchists), do exist, and are despised by left wing anarchists (or black anarchists, such as myself). Libertarians (as they like to call themselves) believe in nothing less than the law of the jungle, that the strong should take from the weak because they can, and that humans are not fundamentaly equal. This is capitalo-anarchism, a most repugnant form of individualism.

On the other hand, TRUE anarchists believe that the suppression of wealth will lead to equality (our legacy from the communists), because we do not believe that productivity should be the basis of human life. We believe that, free from our capitalist dog eat dog system, man will acknowledge the fact that his own welfare is just as important as his neighbour's, and that all things material should neither be owned nor used for personal gain, but always for the welfare of the community. Because an individual's welfare depends on that of the community, black anarchists believe in an altruistic form of "individualism" if you will.

Your conception of left and right is flawed, because you measure these factors by degree of state intervention, whereas they are broader, more philosophical concepts. Rightwingers believe in competition between individuals, and that personal wealth creates the overall wealth of a society. Leftwingers believe that personal wealth creates inequality because there is only a finite amount of wealth available, which is why they advocate a certain form of redistribution, so that anyone can have access to services which can satisfy their basic needs.

Rightwingers believe (and this is blatant in many posts on this thread) that an individual should have access only to the services he can afford according to his productivity (meaning for example that a poor man who cannot afford heart surgery should be left to die because he should have worked harder). Therefore they believe that services should depend on market laws. This of course completly excludes the fact that ressources are finite, and leads to "creating" wealth that does not exist (which in turn leads to the financial situation we are currently facing).

Leftwingers believe that an individual should not be judged on his productivity, but on the fact that he is a fellow human, and should therefore have guaranteed access to VITAL services (socialism is not about who get's ferraris). Which means that since the market (capitalists) WILL not guarantee any form of access to services whithout making profit, the state has to move in to guarantee them. Therefore the state takes (by taxation) the wealth to pay for these services (and allow the poor guy to get his heart surgery).

I hope this helps to clear things up for you. If you really lived in a socialist state, there would be no multi-billionaires, and there would be free health care for all. Don't worry, that's not going to happen tomorrow. You still get to live with more than you need, while the third world starves. But hey, you deserve it, right ? You work harder than those guys who spend 14 hours a day in the uranium mines of Niger, without protection, for 5 dollars a day. While their boss, who is probably a fat rich occidental, who thinks just like you, buys his third mansion in Spain. Hell, their boss just deserves it. Dog eat dog. Right ?



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:20 AM
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I just find it funny that all the whining people in this thread could not cope loosing an election, before starting to call it names.

It is called democracy in your own words, it was a fair and square election and you lost get over it.

Best regards

Loke.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:23 AM
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reply to post by gizmohd
 


Your writing is very narrow minded and egocentric. Grow up and think outside the box ffs!



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by Blogstalker
reply to post by IceColdPro
 


I am thrilled we have a choice in America but I don't have to like who won. People just want to say how they feel, doesnt make them drama queens.

Bet there is a lot of gloating and "I told you so's" going on in other threads, do they get chastised too?

Seems lots of lessons to be learned.

And despite my opinions I wish Obama well and still respect the office of the the president.


You have a fair point, and I commend you for at least reserving judgement until Obama has had time to actually start making decisions in office.

However I disagree on your point about the people in here not being "Drama Queens", I mean, just look at the OP's thread title: "Welcome to the USSA" - Honestly?! That is probably the most sensationalist thread title i've seen in weeks on ATS.

I agree with your point that the "I told you so's" are annoying, and just as immature but the sheer level of sensationalism that is coming out of this thread is shocking!



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:30 AM
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reply to post by Ismail
 


Very well researched and stated. It is obvious your information comes from someplace deeper than cable news soundbites and episodes of American Idol.
Always good to learn new things.
We need to know where we are before we can know where we are going.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:38 AM
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Originally posted by gizmohd
November 4th 2008 marks the dawn of a new day. Gone will be the days where hard work actually means something in order to prosper in the world. Gone are the days where family matters. Welcome to the economic enslavement of the entire nation. No longer will you benefit from succeeding in business or work. No longer will you need to worry about paying for your electric bills or gas bills. Why? Because you wont be able to much longer. Obama told us that under his plans the cost of electricity would 'necessarily" skyrocket. Under his plan if I succeed and become successful I will be punished by higher tax rates. Gone is the American dream. I am rightfully upset. I am a single father raising two children without any help from their mother (financially or otherwise) and I take NO government assistance to do it. I worked 60 hour work weeks while going to school full time in the evenings while my children were toddlers giving up precious time with them in order to earn my college degree so that I could make more and provide more for them. But now, when Obama removes the Bush tax cuts, my taxes will increase, when Obama orders that the Power Plants pay a ridiculous carbon tax for burning coal, my Electricity costs will skyrocket... Now, when Obama stops us from drilling for more oil my fuel costs will skyrocket.. When is enough enough? Where is the point where Obama comes out and says that they will take 100% of my salary and provide me with what "I need" to survive? Myself, my father/grandfather/greatgrandfather etc all served in the military with pride to protect my and your freedoms from socialsm and now I get to explain to my children just why is it that we allowed socialism/communism to win. ANd the sad thing about it all is that they were right.. Because America allowed itself to be bribed with our own money, money that the government shouldnt have in the first place, we vote our freedoms away just for a damn handout..

So, as the title suggests... Welcome to the United Socialist States of America. God help me, I pray that I am wrong and things will not get as bad as I forsee.. But when everything I was taught about freedom and what this Republic stands for is going to be flushed down the toilet, it makes me mad. But most of all, it makes me extremely sad.. Just how is it that I am going to explain it to my children how we allowed this wonderful country to slip away from us.


Stop crying like a little baby. As much as you think so negatively you don't know how well or bad America will by an Obama presidency.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:40 AM
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Wow, so many people who think they know how to run the most powerful nation on Earth, you should all run for president next time!

Fact is, under the Bush administration, the financial crisis was created. He created two wars, he shredded your rights and the rights of millions of people around the world, he created the biggest global social movement against America ever seen. He lied, cheated, stole and (if you accept some of the evidence) had a hand in the greatest terrorist attack to ever visit American soil.
The dividing chasm between rich and poor has deepened and widened under that government.
The members of that government worked for their own interests and put the interests of their people last.

And people still have the stupidity to be suspicious of a man who hasn't even taken office yet.

And even if Obama does introduce some sweeping changes to adversely affect a majority, no one will protest. If you can't protest against Bush while he acts illegally in your name, limits your freedoms and destroys your rights, you'll never protest about anything.

What I see is a lot of people mincing his words, assassinating his character, making assumptions that have no basis in fact. But then again, isn't that what the Republicans did throughout their campaign in the hope that they could actually win this?

I'm elated that Obama got in. Maybe America will finally start taking some responsibility for its actions, and the people start on a new road where equality isn't a whispered curse in the seat of government and the poor aren't treated as slaves to make the wealthy elite even richer.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:41 AM
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reply to post by IceColdPro
 


At least we can be respectful to the others feelings, for lack of a better word. What is the opposite of a drama queen, in the "winners" threads.

I will probably stay out of them, I don't feel like being banned or have my posts deleted. lol... but reserve my right to change my mind.


[edit on 11/5/2008 by Blogstalker]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 05:42 AM
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MOD EDIT - Quote to removed content snipped

Worst article ever!

Comparing Obama to Hitler because of the way he holds a crowd? Grow up, they are polar opposites. Hitler would have had Obama killed in a concentration camp if he was in germany in those days leading up to WWII.

The reason Obama won was because of 8 years of failed policies, huge account deficits and the fighting of a war that seems to have no end. There was NOTHING in the water, but you can keep telling yourself that's what happened, after all this is ATS, I can stand to hear another far out and ridiculous conspiracy theory.


[edit on 5/1108/08 by neformore]

[edit on 5/1108/08 by neformore]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:05 AM
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You fear of Obama's policies? What about Bushs' policies that have made this country go bankrupted? They say Bush did all this mess in 8 years, it would of taken about 42 presidents, +220 years to create the same mess that Bush did.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:13 AM
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reply to post by gizmohd
 

This is a joke right.
Do you actually think Obama is a communist.
I love ya boys but there needs to some schooling going on



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:17 AM
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reply to post by badgerprints
 


Thank you friend. Deny ignorance. Peace.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:20 AM
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My fear is that his policies will be like typical democrat policies times a million: and for a childless person that means even higher taxes for more crap I'll never use. More policies that use me up and throw me away as 'not essential' because I don't breed. A for instance would be his so called 'national' health insurance that only helped people with kids: because it'd be 'too expensive' to cover everyone. Apparently to BHO you're not an american unless you breed little Americans

The gobment has no idea what people need. they think they know what the average person needs and that means they dont know what anyone needs.

Good job screwing us over for a hand out guys.
i mean seriously was it that bad under Bush? OMG i have to take care of my self...oh gee how difficult. NOT! BTW i have stocks in the stock market and own a house and am doing fine...well I was under Bush. IDK what will happen now but I have a feeling I'm gonna get screwed royally.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:22 AM
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reply to post by Armin
 


from what I've seen it was the democrat controled congress that made this country go bankrupt and have a mortgage and financial melt down..

[edit on 5-11-2008 by TrekFan]



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:26 AM
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You American's should be proud of this moment. Why are all you pathetic whingers flapping on about the end of America? This man will do great things.

I'm an Australian, I would be proud to have a man like Obama run our country. Sure he might do some unpopular things along the way, but that's always going to be the case.

I'm getting real sick of this site. It's getting more and more full of selfish and arrogant wankers.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:28 AM
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reply to post by whaaa
 


But better it should be 'love it... and leave the rest of the world alone!'




posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:33 AM
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I don't get it. Everyone talking bad about Mcain and then Obama wins and there is still bad talk?

I agree with the people who say we must unite, and there is plenty of negativity going on here. What happened to you guys?

I don't know what's going to happen of Obama leading the country, from that speech he gave, it sure did shine some light in this hole. At least it did for me and I'm not doing so good financially. I'm sure we will get by no matter what.

I'm just glad bush is going out and I hope the war in iraq discontinues.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 06:35 AM
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So this is how democracy dies..... with thunderous applause....

Careful we must be, dark times these are..... sense much fear and anger I do.

I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi.



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