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US Military.... why?

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posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 10:18 AM
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reply to post by mf_luder
 




Sorry to jump the gun on you then.


No worries mate.


I think sweeping generalizations will always be made by some people for different areas and people in life;All coppers are bent.All lawyers are scum.All Muslims are terrorists.All US soldiers are insane butchers.All Germans were Nazi's etc etc.

To show evidence to the contrary is to shatter these peoples delusions.




posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:09 PM
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Mischievouself is the only person in this thread with a handle on reality.

Lets get back to the main topic of this thread. The op simply wants to know what causes all this anti-military sentiment. He's asked for examples and personal experiences.

Those have been given ad nauseam.

Every time an example is given, the people involved aren't the REAL soldiers, and no one in here serves with these kind of guys.

Get real.

When theres an overwhelming amount of information on soldiers raping, murdering, committing suicide, and engaging in all kinds of other behavior that sketches people out. Pile personal experiences on top of that and you know it's not the media spin.

The military personnel in this thread are clearly biased toward the military so no matter how much evidence you've got to support that military engagement in anti social behavior causes public opinion of the military to be negative, well they'll never see it.
Even jenna admits, she doesn't have to see it. Afraid of the truth. Yep.

Look the fact of the matter remains that many people have a negative view of the military, we keep showing you why, and you keep casting these reasonable arguments to the original question aside.

I have to ask, what is the point of this thread?

People didn't just decide to dislike the military. They have reasons, you can ignore em all you want, but that just makes the military look even worse.

If you actually care about changing opinions, then it starts with you. Telling people that they should support and not be wary of an organization where, violence rape, suicide, drug abuse, etc etc runs rampant only ads fuel to your opposition. Why would i trust or even respect someone who wants me to believe that? If I was that much of a conformist, I'd be in the army.

There's no argument happening here. The thread is over in my opinion. You won't see that the military is associated with some awful things, and logically that creates a negative opinion of them. Add the inability to grasp cause and effect, and basic psychology to the list of typical military characteristics.


-Liquid



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Semantics,

Clouding the Issue.


No it's not semantics. I said the people in videos on youtube doing illegal/immoral/unethical things are morons. You are trying to twist that into me saying all marines are morons. Not once have I said that and not once have I thought that.

The issue here is that you are so dead set that your opinion is right that you are twisting my words however you see fit.


Originally posted by jam321
Kinda sounds like these kids running the streets in the US causing havoc, terrorizing communities, and killing innocent people as they play their role as a gangster. Notice how the media latches on to these stories and play them over and over again because of their senseless violence. Are these kids in gangs really representative of their peers? Should we label all of these kids as trouble makers and murders just because the kids in gangs are?


Excellent point. Going by the logic here everyone in my age group is a trouble maker and a murderer because of the actions of a few morons.


Your evidence seems legit but even the Corps is prone to recruiting morons (since it is the word of the day) especially seeing as how the entire military has lower their standard in order to have sufficient members in its ranks.


Wrong. Recruiting standards have been getting stricter. Can't speak for the rest of the military, but the National Guard has more people enlisted than they had projected to have by the end of 2010 if I remember correctly.

Taken from one of my posts on this thread:




Army Has Not Lowered Soldier Recruiting Standards
The process for granting conduct waivers is tightly controlled, Siegfried said. For starters, individuals who have committed murder or sexually violent crimes, or those who have been convicted for dealing drugs or who are themselves dependent on drugs or alcohol, are automatically excluded from consideration for service.

The Army also excludes those individuals who have charges pending against them or who are on probation or parole. Today's All-Volunteer Army no longer takes those who have been ordered to join the military by the court in lieu of prosecution -- that means no more Soldiers who signed up to avoid going to jail


Same source:

Last year, the Army let in some 511 recruits that required a conduct waiver for felony crimes. Some of those felony crimes include:

-- A 12-year-old, "trying to mimic a bee keeper using smoke to calm down bees in a hive," lit a bee hive on fire, which caught the tree on fire, which then burned the siding of a house. Because of the classification of arson as a felony, he must get a waiver.

-- A 13-year-old male was arrested after school officials discovered a letter that contained anti-Semitic comments, purportedly written by the subject. It was later determined that the subject's twin brother had written the letter, but only after the adjudication of the offense.

-- A 14-year-old male was charged for having consensual intercourse with his 14-year-old girlfriend.

-- A 14-year-old male was driving his parent's automobile without their knowledge. A friend, riding on top of the car, was thrown from the roof of the vehicle. He later died from his injuries. The driver was convicted of vehicular manslaughter.


All this was prior to all, let me repeat that ALL, felonies being disqualifiers for joining the military. If you choose to not believe me, I invite you to call the army or national guard's 1-800 number or your local recruiting office. Tell them you have a felony, pick one any one, and see if you are eligible to join. You don't have to give them your name, number, address, etc. Just tell them you might be interested but want to know if a felony disqualifies you. If they tell you that you are they must not have gotten the memo.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by liquidsmoke206
Mischievouself is the only person in this thread with a handle on reality.


I could argue with you but I won't waste space or time.


Lets get back to the main topic of this thread. The op simply wants to know what causes all this anti-military sentiment. He's asked for examples and personal experiences.

Those have been given ad nauseam.


Speaking of which I had asked you a question a page or two back that never got answered.


Every time an example is given, the people involved aren't the REAL soldiers, and no one in here serves with these kind of guys.


Perhaps because no one here has served with those kind of guys. With as many people as there are in the military it is entirely possible and even probably that most will not know anyone that does that kind of stupid stuff.



Even jenna admits, she doesn't have to see it. Afraid of the truth. Yep.


No I don't have to watch more of the same to know that the videos posted on this thread are of a few soldiers being complete idiots. Nor do I have to watch to know that they are doing something illegal/immoral/unethical. What is so hard to understand about me not needing to see these particular ones when I have already seen many just like them?


Look the fact of the matter remains that many people have a negative view of the military, we keep showing you why, and you keep casting these reasonable arguments to the original question aside.


The fact of the matter is many people have a negative view on the military based on the actions of the few, as opposed to the majority, and based on misinformation. What is wrong with trying to dispel the lies spread around with actual truth? I don't recall anyone denying that there are people in the military who do illegal/immoral/unethical things. The point that some here keep missing is that those people are a minority and are not representative of the majority of military members.


If you actually care about changing opinions, then it starts with you. Telling people that they should support and not be wary of an organization where, violence rape, suicide, drug abuse, etc etc runs rampant only ads fuel to your opposition. Why would i trust or even respect someone who wants me to believe that? If I was that much of a conformist, I'd be in the army.


Or you'd be in college, in the workforce, in a city, in the country, in a family, etc. Violence, rape, suicide, drug abuse, etc run rampant in every part of society. To single out one section as being worse than the rest, even when presented with evidence to the contrary is just asinine.


There's no argument happening here. The thread is over in my opinion. You won't see that the military is associated with some awful things, and logically that creates a negative opinion of them. Add the inability to grasp cause and effect, and basic psychology to the list of typical military characteristics.


And you and others won't see that some members of the military do awful things, but that most are decent human beings who do not do awful things. Add the inability to comprehend anything contrary to one's opinions to the list of typical anti-military characteristics.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:12 PM
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Check the Breaking Alternative News Forum....



Brooklyn Marine sergeant & wife tortured, slain in Calif.; 4 of his men are arrested.....


Tick tock and ya don't stop!!!

They're doing the same ^%@*(* here as they do in Iraq.


Nuff said.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by Jenna
 





I could argue with you but I won't waste space or time.

Well then why respond at all?



Speaking of which I had asked you a question a page or two back that never got answered.

Sorry, I missed it, I'll answer it now. I'm glad you checked out my link. I think it's important to note the comment on it of a similar experience, that someone else had. My point is, that when drunken fights happen at parties, between friends no less, it's just not much of a surprise that's its a vet. This has been my point the entire time, that this behavior is associated with these guys. Check the late breaking news. Also this is just ONE personal experience, I could tell you more. I've been to a lot of parties, usually fights don't break out, but when you have either gang bangers or military dudes hanging out, you gotta keep your wits.



Perhaps because no one here has served with those kind of guys. With as many people as there are in the military it is entirely possible and even probably that most will not know anyone that does that kind of stupid stuff.


That's funny cuz i keep running into them, and the media and everyone else has no shortage or bad military stories. Maybe you don't recognize any of the people we're referring to because you ARE one....just saying....




What is so hard to understand about me not needing to see these particular ones when I have already seen many just like them?

"many just like them" let it be known from this point on, Jenna can't see the forest through the trees.



The point that some here keep missing is that those people are a minority and are not representative of the majority of military members.

I want to believe that, I hope you convince me. I just haven't seen it. And if majority means 51%, then I'm still REALLY unimpressed.



Violence, rape, suicide, drug abuse, etc run rampant in every part of society.

RAMPANT in EVERY PART, is not accurate, but the discussion is about the military, which has a bad rep.



And you and others won't see that some members of the military do awful things, but that most are decent human beings who do not do awful things. Add the inability to comprehend anything contrary to one's opinions to the list of typical anti-military characteristics.

I comprehend what you're saying I just don't see the evidence for it or have enough positive experiences with military personnel, which therefor forms my opinion.

I think we should stop using "anti-military" at least in regards to Liquidsmoke. I'm not anti military, I believe that a country, especially the US, needs defense.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by liquidsmoke206
Well then why respond at all?


I was being nice. Not by responding, but by not arguing that point.


Sorry, I missed it, I'll answer it now. I'm glad you checked out my link. I think it's important to note the comment on it of a similar experience, that someone else had. My point is, that when drunken fights happen at parties, between friends no less, it's just not much of a surprise that's its a vet. This has been my point the entire time, that this behavior is associated with these guys. Check the late breaking news. Also this is just ONE personal experience, I could tell you more. I've been to a lot of parties, usually fights don't break out, but when you have either gang bangers or military dudes hanging out, you gotta keep your wits.


I figured you did. Drunken fights break out all the time though. As I said in that post, well I think I did anyway, I have been to high school graduation parties that ended with a fight between friends and neither of them were in the military or in a gang. And yes, high school kids who are just graduating can be in the military for any who think otherwise.



That's funny cuz i keep running into them, and the media and everyone else has no shortage or bad military stories. Maybe you don't recognize any of the people we're referring to because you ARE one....just saying....


I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you did not just call me a puppy-killing, murdering rapist, even though that seems to be some's definition of member of the military. And no, I am not in the military nor do I think they are all puppy-killing, murdering rapists before someone tries to twist my words again. Maybe I don't recognize any of the people you are referring to because I don't know any like that. I have known people from school, years ago, and from places I have worked that give off that psyco stalker rapist vibe, but none of the military people that I personally know have or would do anything of the sort.



"many just like them" let it be known from this point on, Jenna can't see the forest through the trees.


Videos such as those posted are only posted to invoke an emotional reaction. There are only so many videos of that nature that one can watch before one knows without watching what will happen and what will be said. The actions of the soldiers in those videos and ones like them are deplorable, not once have I denied that. I simply have no desire to witness needless atrocities, nor do I need to to understand and agree that there are some really sick people in this world both in and out of the military.


I want to believe that, I hope you convince me. I just haven't seen it. And if majority means 51%, then I'm still REALLY unimpressed.


I can't give you a percentage as I do not have statistics handy. But I do know that those members of the military who do engage in illegal/immoral/unethical activities, and then tape themselves doing it for youtube of all things, are not any indication of how the majority of military members behave. That would make about as much sense, as was pointed out by another poster, as saying that all teenagers are murderers simply because some teenagers are ignorant enough to join a gang.

And therein lies the fault in your and others' logic. If a few are always representative of the whole as is suggested by claiming that all military members are essentially monsters, then all college students date rape other college students and all teenagers are murderous gang members.


RAMPANT in EVERY PART, is not accurate, but the discussion is about the military, which has a bad rep.


Please enlighten me as to what part of society does not have rape, drug abuse, violence, etc.


I comprehend what you're saying I just don't see the evidence for it or have enough positive experiences with military personnel, which therefor forms my opinion.


Then I would suggest you are hanging around the wrong people. You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone, but if everyone you run into from the military is engaged in, or has engaged in, illegal/immoral/unethical behavior then perhaps there is something you are doing or some place you go that increases your likely-hood of running into such people. I'm not trying to pass judgment or anything, it's just a suggestion to think about.


I think we should stop using "anti-military" at least in regards to Liquidsmoke. I'm not anti military, I believe that a country, especially the US, needs defense.


Fair enough, agreed.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 02:49 PM
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Originally posted by liquidsmoke206
Every time an example is given, the people involved aren't the REAL soldiers, and no one in here serves with these kind of guys.

Get real.


Look, my main issue is that I'm not trying to sit here and tell anyone that they should ignore the fact we have crime in our ranks. Hell, any organization with humans in it has crime. That's not my point.

My point is that you cannot tell me that ALL of us are guilty for the actions of the few.

You cannot lump us all into the category of "rapist", "murderer", etc - because of the actions of the few.

That's my point.


As for the people who've provided their side of the argument on here, I appreciate these examples and I agree the people who've done wrong should be punished, cast aside and looked down on -but not the entire US Military.

My bias, of course does lie with the US Military, but I'm reasonable enough to look at the entire picture and make an assessment instead of calling an entire group of people names and deciding they're all a bunch of criminals based off the actions of the minority.

I don't have them now, as I just woke up, but I'm going to go get some numbers in a few hours and post them on here for crime vs size of US Military forces.


Please don't derail my thread. While you may feel the thread's main point is moot because of the supporters and their views oppose the non-supporters and their views, that's for them to decide. I want this discussion to continue. You said it yourself - for people to see that we're not all bad, it starts with us, right? Well, I haven't been flaming people on here for the fact that they aren't military and I sure don't appreciate it when people flame me because I am. I want to see how I can work to fix things.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 03:14 PM
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Here is a poem I saw years ago and still makes me think. At the time this was written there was an unpopular war going on and people hating the military and everything it stood for. Unfortunately; some things never change.

If you are able,
save for them a place
inside of you
and save one backward glance
when you are leaving
for the places they can
no longer go.

Be not ashamed to say
you loved them,
though you may
or may not have always.

Take what they have left
and what they have taught you
with their dying
and keep it with your own.

And in that time
when men decide and feel safe
to call the war insane,
take one moment to embrace
those gentle heroes
you left behind.

Major Micheal Davis O'Donnell
1 January, 1970
Dak to, Vietnam



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by MischeviousElf

I suggest many here if they have not seen it already, watch the film by Stanley Kubrick - Full Metal Jacket, if they find the videos above not worth watching.

Many people don't realise that the Marine sergeant who trains them in the Film, was AN ACTUAL MARINE SERGEANT in Vietnam, he loved the Marine Corp, he was no actor, he fought bravely for his country, but after sending 30-40 kids to battle every 8-12 weeks after initial training, and seeing the huge numbers being killed, and realising that

The war was not about freedom.

The war was not about Protecting His country men or furthering the Cause of his countries values.

That it was wasteless and useless, he left the Marine Corp and became a outspoken critic of the brainwashing techniques he himself had propogated, where Kids go and Murder, kill and maim with no thought of why they doing it.




I'm guessing you are talking about R. Lee Ermey (aka "Gunney")??

Could you provide a source to the info quoted above? If it is Ermey you are talking - I went looking and couldn't find it.

I found this on his bio.

R. Lee Ermey


Ermey spent eleven years in the Marine Corps, Two of which were spent as being a Drill Instructor at Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego, India Company 3rd Recruit Training Battalion 1965-67, Arrived in Vietnam in 1968 spending 14 months attached to Marine Wing Support Group 17 and 2 tours in Okinawa. He rose to the rank of Staff Sergeant and was medically retired for injuries received. On May 17, 2002 he received an honorary promotion to Gunnery Sergeant (E-7) by Commandant James L. Jones, becoming the first retiree in the history of the Marines to be promoted


It it was Ermy you were talking about - could you provide the source?



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 03:54 PM
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look here, if you want to find what it is you are looking for you must first seek the great wisdom of little frog, for it is little frog that can explain what is happening with us because it has become obvious that you do not understand.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 04:06 PM
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reply to post by Frogs
 


Frogs I think that was him, the one who trains in the beginning of the film, and is shot by the lad with Learning Difficulties before they went to Vietnam.

I got the info years ago as I am a Fan of Kubrick's and was watching a Bio type thing of his life, ideas and films a documentary.

In that it was mentioned, how he chose to do the film as he was disgusted about the Kids he had sent to be slaughtered, and a rough outline of his life.

I will dig around for the actual docu/film and try and post it on here it was very interesting if you like Kubrick, and especially in relation to this Guy and also as ATS the Nazi Paperclip operation, bringing all the SS to America after the WW2 to the Military Industrial Complex, which is what he based his other anti war film on "Dr StrangeLove"

It was many years ago so bear with me.

Elf.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 04:20 PM
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reply to post by liquidsmoke206
 



More than 1.75 million servicemen and women have served in Iraq or Afghanistan;


source

What percentage of these 1.75 million that have served in the war thus far do you think are the ones responsible for the violence rape, suicide, drug abuse, etc etc that you speak about?



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by liquidsmoke206
Mischievouself is the only person in this thread with a handle on reality.

Lets get back to the main topic of this thread. The op simply wants to know what causes all this anti-military sentiment. He's asked for examples and personal experiences.

Those have been given ad nauseam.

Every time an example is given, the people involved aren't the REAL soldiers, and no one in here serves with these kind of guys.

Get real.

When theres an overwhelming amount of information on soldiers raping, murdering, committing suicide, and engaging in all kinds of other behavior that sketches people out. Pile personal experiences on top of that and you know it's not the media spin.

The military personnel in this thread are clearly biased toward the military so no matter how much evidence you've got to support that military engagement in anti social behavior causes public opinion of the military to be negative, well they'll never see it.
Even jenna admits, she doesn't have to see it. Afraid of the truth. Yep.

Look the fact of the matter remains that many people have a negative view of the military, we keep showing you why, and you keep casting these reasonable arguments to the original question aside.

I have to ask, what is the point of this thread?

People didn't just decide to dislike the military. They have reasons, you can ignore em all you want, but that just makes the military look even worse.

If you actually care about changing opinions, then it starts with you. Telling people that they should support and not be wary of an organization where, violence rape, suicide, drug abuse, etc etc runs rampant only ads fuel to your opposition. Why would i trust or even respect someone who wants me to believe that? If I was that much of a conformist, I'd be in the army.

There's no argument happening here. The thread is over in my opinion. You won't see that the military is associated with some awful things, and logically that creates a negative opinion of them. Add the inability to grasp cause and effect, and basic psychology to the list of typical military characteristics.


-Liquid

Replace "military" and "soldiers" with "blacks" or "Mexicans" and this post gets REALLY funny.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by MischeviousElf
 


No problem -

I couldn't find that much on his views to be honest.

I did find a page of quotes by him that was the closest I could find to giving his views.

R. Lee Ermey Quotes

The quotes were honestly a bit of a mixed bag. A few that suggested he disagreed with some of the more modren training methods and the meddling of politicians in the way 'nam was handled.

The problem with the scattered quotes I found were they are just that. Here a few from the link above that seemed related to training and 'nam.


There have been a lot of changes in recruit training in the past twenty years.
.....................
Even though I disagree with many of the changes, when I see the privates graduate at the end of the day, when they walk off that drill field at the end of the ceremony, they are still fine privates; outstanding, well motivated privates.
...............................
Back in the old Corp, we weren't training those privates to infiltrate into the peacetime Marine Corp. We were training those privates to go to Vietnam.
.............................
The biggest problem was the politicians knew nothing about fighting a war.


But also these that seem to indicate he was proud of his service.


I don't have any respect at all for the scum-bags who went to Canada to avoid the draft or to avoid doing their fair share.

It's my firm conviction that when Uncle Sam calls, by God we go, and we do the best that we can.

You'd be surprised how many kids and young people come to the website and send me email that they are actually going into the Marine Corp because of something that I said or did.


I'm not saying he didn't do/say the say things you mentioned - just that I couldn't find them. He may very well have and I just can't find it.

I watch his Roll Call show sometimes and he always seems very pro military on that and that was promted my search.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 05:03 PM
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R. Lee Ermey is like the most pro-military guy alive. How could one think he's anti-miltary when he does that show?



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by Frogs
 


Well I think its obvious from anyone watching the Film the message he was trying to convey, and Kubrick was strictly making the film as an Anti Vietnam/ War film, and in respect to the real Warriors too, the dichotomy is ever present with the Main Character with his CND badge etc.

Also the film displays some of the Massacres of the Vietnam Civilians in villages.

Also the main Sergeant, who may or may not be who you mention, is killed by one of the very soldiers he trains by brainwashing him, using the Techniques they had to to get more "Grunts" out there to die in such a short space of time, the dehumanisation, mental torture and breaking of any logical thought process necessary to turn young Boys, and lets be fair that's the issue young Boys into paid killers in a 2-3 month period.

He wouldn't I am sure displayed the training of the Marines in such a Bad light, and supported such a strong and striking War Film taking the Main early role, Parodying his own Job and peers unless he agreed with it.

I am sure that man did not sell out all the kids he trained and comrades that died with him unless he truly truly believed in it.

Anyone watching that film is left in no doubt at all about the message it conveys, and I am sure its obvious his Primal and Pivitol role in the first 1/3 of the film and its subsequent colouring of that films message of the Military in Vietnam, and the training of these kids.

" This Is my Rifle, I Love My rifle, my rifle is my Best Freind, I would Die For my Rifle etc" has always stayed with me since watching it.

The message is very clear for anyone watching it, and after I watched it after seeing that Doc with Kubrick etc and this Sergeants actual history that he was who he Played in the film it took on a whole new meaning for me.

Frogs I will get the source soonish let me dig around I would like to see it again anyhow, I love Kubrick!

Elf.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 05:46 PM
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I thought it portrayed the Marines fine. Some people are #ed up- the fat kid couldn't take the stress and blew it. Not everyone can.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by SuperViking
I thought it portrayed the Marines fine. Some people are #ed up- the fat kid couldn't take the stress and blew it. Not everyone can.


Welcome to my ignore list

that FAT KID was based on an actual person who did kill someone in training because he had Autism and was conscripted.

Its a form of learning difficulty.

Bye Bye.

That's what we "Cissy" civilians cant get that sort of attitude.

Livid with anger, and Id show you a True warrior if you came within 100 feet of me Now my friend and Kick you Fat ass marine or not!

A tree hugging real Warrior!

Elf.



posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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reply to post by MischeviousElf
 


Now it's "based on a true story"? No, it's not. Calm down.



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