Well happy campers of never never land I have a few questions that need an answer or further talk.
-Who was funding and aiding Bin Ladden during the USSR-Afgan war?
-Who was giving Saddam Hussain F-14 and other military aid during the Iraq-Iran war?
-Who wasn't giving a wooden nickle about the UN's decisions in almost anything?
-Who is giving anyone the right to invade another country and pretend he is the messaia?
-Who is gaining from every war that is fought around the world?
-Who is bulling almost anybody?
-Who is always right when everybody's wrong?


My fellow citizens there is only one answer. The good ol' US of A. If you have a history book read it. Keep in mind though, history is written from the one who wins. Stop having this crystal nose pretending the US is the best in anything. This nose can easily break and unfortunately we all found out that on 911(by the way I have loads of questionmarks about this one). Remember the Great Britain about 300 years ago, it was huge, and powerful, but how it ended up?

If anyone has different opinion post it!!!

Dragon73 you make it seem as though we did all of these things knowing that it would all turn out like this. At the time we did not know that things would work out like this and the fact that we did what we did was to keep our nation out of economical crisis. Most people think that our economy is the greatest in the world but in all reality its not. The resecion gets worse each day it seems. I've been personally affected by this. But what I'm saying is that we make decisions but no one can tell how things will end up.

My friend you didn't understand, maybe it was my fault. I am not a judge to the people that they try to see a bit further from their nose. I am a judge to those who just repeat what the government proclaims without thinking. They can't see the bodybags, which is good in way because the dead are in a better place, the families that are left behind, the Vet hospitals (has any of them young ones been there to see what are dead spirits? who most of the times die alone in these hellholes, because they are the unwanted from their families and friends?), the disorders that the soldiers have when they return, the violence. WHY? Because in a remote country there is a dictatore or just somebody we don't like, we go there we don't kill him, we take some of his resources and then we let him be for further use e.g. war in the following years. War equals money. Our money. Why one earth should I fight for somebody else? Why should I bother?If my country was the case then I would gladly die. And by the way I have proven that in the past because I fought for my country (incase somebody asks!).

Just to nit pick, Saddam got more of his weapons from Russian rather than the US. F-14's belong to Iran and were sold to them when the shar was in power. Now after sanctions they are mostly flying pieces of junk.

PS. What war did you fight in Dragon ?

[Edited on 18-1-2003 by mad scientist]

The US was funding the enemy of our enemy, it was the cold war after all. And the cold war is over - partly because the US did what they did there?? Mujahideen did a number on the USSR. The US didn't give Iraq F14's, as MS has said. You'll need to clarify the other questions - they're quite oblique.

Originally posted by Dragon73

Remember the Great Britain about 300 years ago, it was huge, and powerful, but how it ended up?

Ok, in 300 years, I'll tell you what !

MS & BoB88 have right. USA sold 80 F-14A to Iran not to Irak. And they did it when the Sha was in power and Iran was an allied of the USA.

"US is being little by little ANIHILATED by the UN "

Surely this is a good thing?
global polotics should be decided by a coelition of many different countries, not a single nation with enough nuclear fire power to blow the others up.

Personally I'm looking foreward to the daywe level enough economic sanctions on the US to force them to disarm totally.
we can then keep them supressed as a military power until their electorial system becomes truely democratic and we've removed religious fundimentalists from its presidency.

Originally posted by Lupe_101


Personally I'm looking foreward to the daywe level enough economic sanctions on the US to force them to disarm totally.

Great idea Lupe_101.

And in less than 1 week, we'll see Chicoms troops in Taiwan, North-Koreans troops in South-Korea, mosleems troops in Israel and probably many foreigns troops on the US & UE soils.!!!!!!!! What a brilliant idea !!!

Like this, no more stupid democracy on earth, but only good dictatorships who'll have at heart our freedoms and liberty !!!!

Moron Award for lupe_101 and his post !

I'm sorry for this last phrase Lupe, but you're really weird, you know. Something is going wrong in your mind. Me, I should disarm FIRST all the dictatorship and NOT first all the democracy. Of course,it's just my point of view.

[Edited on 20-1-2003 by ultra_phoenix]

No need to apologise, you simply don't see the U.S. current administration as a threat to global stability and the country most likely to be responsible for another world war.

I do.

in your eyes that makes me a moron, in my eyes that makes you one, its all swings and roundabouts.

C'mon Lupe, the most dangerous nation on earth is not the USA. China & Russia, probably. North-Korea/Irak/Iran, definitively.

But the USA ??????

None ogf those countrys are anywhere near as powerfull or totalitarian in their aims as the US currently.

Also neither of these countrys has used WMD's
The US has, and has threatened to use them in the near future agains Iraq.

Currently regardless of its status as our ally the single most volatile aggressive and incursive nation on the planet is the US.

If a Muslim state had decided to invade France, remove its leader and replace the government with a fundimentalist theological dictatorship the world would be up in arms.

the fact that we prefer Democracy makes no difference to what the US is currently doing in the middle east.

Its invading another country due to a theological dispute.

Its an illegal war and inflamatory to global stability.

Then of course, once Iraq has been "cleansed" of our "great evil" who will they move onto, Korea maybe?

so yes, currently the US is far more dangerous than any of the countrys you mention.

You live in a Dream world Lupe. China, is by far more totalitarian in their aims, and in life. Only there can you be walking to work, be picked up off the street by a soldier, thrown into a truck, driven to a government work site, and forced to work chopping rocks into gravel what have you, until the job is completed. Only in China do you have prison camps that feed dead prisoners to the other inmates because they don't have enough food for them.

And do you know what those prisoners are in there for? Wanting a more democratic government.

The US is pretty aggressive, because it knows that for Democracies to survive, for the western way of life to survive, Dictatorships must bet destroyed, no matter how small they are.

So I think you should come out of your "fantasy" shell, and smell the real world. France was invaded by a fundamentalist theological dictatorship, it was called Nazism, and hitler was its god.

And who came to its aid? America.

Who comes to the rest of the Middle East's aid? America...and it does need aid, Islam is a fractured religion, that kills members of different sects as zealously as christians and islams did in the crusades.

All the governments in the Middle east with the exception of Israel, are dictatorships.

You should untie America's hands so that we can go in there, knock all their regiems over, and put up democracies in their place.

Sincerely,
no signature

actually I think your the one living in a dream world.
your love of "democracy" comes accross as exactly the same sort of overly zealous devotion to a philosphical concept that you accuse your enemys of.

your coming at this from a "our way of life is right, so theirs must be wrong, so we must destroy their way of life and put ours in its place"

It won't be long before people like you are flying planes into Mosques in terrorist acts designed to combat your own "great evil"

try and step back from your own preferences and look at what is happening from an objective philosophical perspective..

The US is doing exactly what Al Quaida would do if it had the fire power.

you can't bring about global stability by crushing your enemys, This simply breeds more enemys to crush.

Originally posted by Lupe_101

1) actually I think your the one living in a dream world.
your love of "democracy" comes accross as exactly the same sort of overly zealous devotion to a philosphical concept that you accuse your enemys of.

2) It won't be long before people like you are flying planes into Mosques in terrorist acts designed to combat your own "great evil"

3) try and step back from your own preferences and look at what is happening from an objective philosophical perspective..

4) The US is doing exactly what Al Quaida would do if it had the fire power.

5) you can't bring about global stability by crushing your enemys, This simply breeds more enemys to crush.

1) We are dreaming, you are dreaming....everybody are dreaming.

2) Hey FM, may I be your co-pilot ????

3) " philosophical perspective " ? But peoples who are dieing in these chicoms and north-koreans death camps don't care about any " philosophical perspective " ! They just want to be free. And if we don't act, it mean that we let them die. I didn't see any death camps in the USA. And you ? Did you see them ?

4) Not at all. If Al Q. had this power, Al Q. would blown up all of us !

5)I don't remember who many time I asked this question : BUT WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO THEN ????????????????????

They don't want to do peace, they don't want to stay cool, they don't want to see a democratic system in thier country,they just want to attack us, BUT WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING ! What's YOUR wonderfull solution ????????????????

[Edited on 20-1-2003 by SimonGray]

1) We are dreaming, you are dreaming....everybody are dreaming.

That I agree with. the concept of good and bad is an illusion, the concept of good and bad politics is an illusion within an illusion.


3) " philosophical perspective " ? But peoples who are dieing in these chicoms and north-koreans death camps don't care about any " philosophical perspective " ! They just want to be free. And if we don't act, it mean that we let them die. I didn't see any death camps in the USA. And you ? Did you see them ?

I think you've answered your own point. It is precisely because of one groups philosophical stand point that they're in these camps. Thats why a solid Philosophy is more important than individual actions, acting in a way that undermines the philosophy you are attempting to perpetuate helps no one.
what the US is doing in Iraq undermines the philosophies that the U.S. claims to stand for. namely freedom and democracy.

4) Not at all. If Al Q. had this power, Al Q. would blown up all of us !
exactly, thats why we must find better ways to change global politics, or are you saying that Al Quaidas methods are good enough for them so they're good enough for us (and so as not to risk anyone forgetting can I remind the thread that Al Quaeda have never been proven to be, nor claimed responsibility for Sep 11 its still just speculation)

5)I don't remember who many time I asked this question : BUT WHAT DO WE HAVE TO DO THEN ????????????????????

If you read some other threads you'll see my "solution"
I've typed it out so many times I really can't be bothered any more but basically it involves investing in countrys like Iraq and Afghanistan to the point that the people are not only affluent and educated enough not to reach the levels of desperation that fuel terrorism, And allowing healthy democracys to evolve slowly and steadily.

Its not as quick flashy and slap dash as bombing their schools but it does have the advantage of actually working to vcombat terrorism

Originally posted by Lupe_101

If you read some other threads you'll see my "solution"
I've typed it out so many times I really can't be bothered any more but basically it involves investing in countrys like Iraq and Afghanistan to the point that the people are not only affluent and educated enough not to reach the levels of desperation that fuel terrorism, And allowing healthy democracys to evolve slowly and steadily.

Of course Lupe, I agree with you. That's better to help them than bomb them.Sure. But do you think that Saddam, or any other tyrans, will let us help their peoples ? That they will let us teach them that democracy is better than dictatorship ? That's where you dream. You can do that only when the country is a democracy. You can't do that in a dictatorship, BECAUSE that's a dictatorship ! And you know it perfectly. So, I don't see your point. You know that it will not work until they are not democratic.

If you can level enough guns at saddam to get him to quit his presidency, you can certainly level enough guns and cash at him to get him to let you rebuild his country.

And frankly it would be less expensive.

Poor Lupe, what's wrong ?
Jealous of the US eh ? I can understand that, but there is no need to tell lies. European ingratitude is shameful, more accusations should be levelled at the EU for sitting on their arses for the last 50 years. Maybe then you wouldn't be so marginlised and impotent.
GROW UP stop posting these blatant anti-american diatribes. I am sick of reading the exact same argument from u time and time again on different threads. Why don't you post something useful for a change.

Please no more ravings and half truths. If you attack US policy, please by all means provide a logical alternative. Propose something different, such as what to do with terrorism and rogue states. I await your thoughts.

[Edited on 21-1-2003 by mad scientist]

"Poor Lupe, what's wrong ?
Jealous of the US eh ?"

you know I laugh every time somone pulls this.
"they don't like american foreign policy they must be jealous of the U.S."

Jesus, didn't you go to school, don't you read the papers or watch the news, surely your pathetic little mind is capable of coming up with a more constructive argument than "they must be jealous"

ok, hows this. I have a nice job. I have a nice house. I live in my nice house with my 2 nice girl friends. when I finish my nice job today, I will go back to my nice house and cook a nice meal, then me and my nice girl friends will mellow out for a while and probably talk about how utterly lucky we are, who knows maybe my nice agent will ring me and offer me a nice fat pay check to bang out another piece of piss script so that me and my nice girlfriends can go on another nice holliday and then we will probably go to bed and dream nice dreams and think nice thoughts and you know what?

I'll still think Current US foreign policy is a crock of sh1t

we're not jealous doodle.
we're angry.

"GROW UP stop posting these blatant anti-american diatribes. I am sick of reading the exact same argument from u time and time again on different threads. Why don't you post something useful for a change. "

No Problem.

Dear Mr Mad Scientist.
If you have such an amazing problem with my views on certain topics and how I express them, why don't you simply ~not read them~
I know how certain mind sets seem unable to see the obvious solutions to their many and varied psychosis and as such you have my sympathy / pity.

Originally posted by Lupe_101

to get him to let you rebuild his country.

And you believe that it will work with Saddam ?

Unfortunately for us, Saddam didn't probably see what you wrote about him, otherwise, he was laughing to death, and like he was death, we didn't have to go in Irak anymore.