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Would you stop believing if Religion is a proven lie?

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posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 04:54 PM

Originally posted by seb2882
Of course there are enlightened people, there are lots of religious and non-religious people who do good deeds, but the thing is precisely what you're asking not to look at: the ignorant masses, which are easily controlled: see for instance in ancient times, how people respected their King because it was God sent. If that's true, great! But if it's not, those guys just had quite the life on the expense of millions breaking their backs everyday.

In forming your opinion about religion, I'm asking you [rhetorical you] not to look at the actions of ignorant or corrupt individuals who use religion as a pretext to further their own ends. If there were no such thing as religion, many if not more of the same crimes of these sort would still persist throughout history.

I think I may have missed your point. The population that is willfully ignorant is easily manipulated and controlled - yes. They are controlled by appealing to their baser instincts. Fear, propaganda, arguments based solely on pathos, political affiliation, character attacks, misinformation, and so on are at the disposal of the elite in society. Some use a corrupted or twisted form of religion, but if they actually followed that very religion they would never allow such atrocities to occur. So I have to respectfully disagree with you that religion is the cause of the suffering, let's say, of peasants under a "divinely appointed" king. The king is the cause of their suffering. Hope that made some sense.

[edit on 4-11-2008 by Viral]

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 05:10 PM
When you have reached the end of all the light that you know, and you must step out into the darkness of the unknown, faith is knowing that one of two things will happen: either you will have something solid to stand on, or you will be taught how to fly!

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 05:12 PM
Religion may be a lie, but God is not. Since faith in God is just that - FAITH - you cannot "prove" whether or not He exists. I will continue to believe no matter WHAT anyone "disproves". Evolution is already being taught as fact, so what does that tell you about those who "prove" things?

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 05:14 PM
Anonymous there sounds like he is from one of those groups that are called cults but really aren't.

TWM maybe. A few others that are "off shoots" come to mind. The message though is not that we can know everything in the "Word" and to criticize others for mistakes is a judgement NOT granted us.

Be not equally yoked righteous to unbeliever...for wicked are the ways and devious is the path unto damnation?

Ya, so if that dogma is right I am "born again" but that's it. I purposed myself to eschew the imperfect teachings of imperfect men and divine for myself my division. I don't care if it gets me damned cause I would rather burn up in hell than suck at the teat of a merciful fool.

I am sure Lucifer would have kind words in regards to my "religion", since it eliminates his free will and his effect on anything. Oh, sure, there is evil and things we can not define...but what is the purpose of life if we are born losers and have to die to get anything worthwhile? Creation isn't about life, it's about who's lies we believe when we die. You people know that you have a cherry picked and horribly mangled book to go by and don't even look at the Apocrypha or the (little bit of what is defined as) the Book of Mary from Magdala.

The truth people seek is available, you have to be given the eyes to see it and the mind to decide for yourself (which we all have, in Christ). People split hairs over stupid issues that are answered else where - good luck and don;t hurt anybody if you get worked up into a "spiritual rage".

I don't know how to disprove myself but I am working on it.

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 05:20 PM

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by prevenge

And what if when in the future man does find a way to discover the beginning of all. Won't you be surprised to find that God really is there after all. Your question could have another answer that you do not want to believe.

Well I'm not saying that god didn't create everything.
I'm disputing WHAT god IS.
and if he/it's the collective unity of all consciousness then that's pretty much all-pervasive.
people who are used to story book bed time stories don't have the capacity NOR WILL to wrap their minds around the higher thought forms and concepts of intellectualizing the concept of god.


posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 05:25 PM
I'm ok on this subject because I follow Pagan values.

No one can prove to me that the Earth is not alive, if they could, they wouldn't exist!

The only god-like figure in my life is the Earth, I don't need any blind faith in it. My beliefs are all about respecting the Earth, environment, spirit and self.

But it's an interesting question. And I suppose I can flip it and suggest what I would think if someone could prove to me that another religion was proven as true.
And I think I would still follow my values and beliefs, because the most that could be proven would surely be a story. I have no doubt that a man (Jesus) existed, had some remarkable ideas, moved people, forced change and was a "celebrity" of his times. But there would always be other possibilities and explanations for things, such as an existence of God. If that were proven, it could also then be suggested that this is in fact an alien force, and not the true God spoken of in history.

Did any of that make sense?

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 05:52 PM
Religon predates Jesus... most ancient religions are the hybridic foundations of the newer ones. Please consider Bahai faith? it's an amalgamation of Judaism, Vatican Catholicism, Islam, and others...

The ideal, perfect man concept is surely as old as humanity. Well, maybe sometime in the later "tree" age or the beginning of the stone age...heh, I say as I am listening to my Pharaoh CD...

Meh, is religion a dogmatic literary expression of what the ideal perfectionism is?

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 06:18 PM
It's amazing to me how so many people can have such differing ideas and also motives in this thread. Some people desire something to come from their religion or their god and so they stick by it even on this thread when we should let go our predispositions and try to have an open mind. Still people are praising the Lord(or whatever) even here though. They think they are doing the right thing by spreading what they believe, whether it is true or not. Others are studying the human behavior in this thread and trying to understand and see things from another perspective. And others are searching for something to believe in.

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 06:32 PM

Originally posted by detachedindividual
I have no doubt that a man (Jesus) existed, had some remarkable ideas, moved people, forced change and was a "celebrity" of his times.

You have no doubt about this? Even many Christians have doubts about some of that.
For example if Jesus was a celebrity as you call it than why are there so few first hand accounts of him? And from the perspective of the bible why would Judas Iscariot have to identify him to the guards before his death? Don't you think if he was well known he wouldn't need to be identified?
Also I don't know if Jesus as a real person either miraculous or not ever existed, so I can't have doubt, but it sounds to me like you are saying you have no doubt that he existed just that he was not miraculous nor the son of God.

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 06:48 PM
This is a hard question.

I believe in a supreme being. Call it what you want. This was all created somehow and I believe in what created it. I also respect it.

I, however, do not like organized religion. There's way to much corruption in religion for me to believe in any of it.

If you discount the major religious icons, it wouldn't change how I feel a supreme "being" or whatever term fits.

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 06:49 PM
reply to post by seb2882

Havn't read the whole thread yet, just the initial post. Feel it's gonna be interesting, and the op has valid points.

Re: Religion. Religion's are only different paths to the same supermarket. God, the divine, evolution, it doesn't matter what linguistic label we place on it, this creative force exists, even without our man-made religious beliefs. It is above that, :-) .

For sure, the bible as we generally view it today, has been changed considerably. Though, the core message of all religions are sound. If we concentrate on spirituality, and set 'ego' and politics to the side.

If we remember, religion is only a set of guidelines to become one with all that is, and there are various ways to taste this dish, then we see how useful religion is.

We shouldn't confuse human greed and ego with what is essentially, sound messages to help fellow humans, irrespective of differences.

take care

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 06:55 PM
I advise you to read the quran translation in english
but read it all just all of it

If You could not

I advise you another time to read Mary Sura in quran or what is Marim in arabic language you will see the truth coming out like a bright lightning or a bright lighting sun

May Allah THE ONLY ONE God WHO CREATED ALL THINGS make you believe

I am waiting for your reply

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 07:17 PM
I think that things that question our faith are good for us on a personal level, it is through questioning that we begin to appreciate concepts outside of our own preconceived notions and are able to expand our horizons.

You should never take anything anyone tells you as an absolute truth, be it a minister, or a doctor, a scientist, a politician or me, the duty falls on you to explore the information you are given and to come up with your own set of beliefs about the world based on your findings, then by all means share with the rest of us.

I wonder actually what is faith, is faith simply believing in a godlike figure, is faith believing in a godlike figure who may care about you and grant you favor in some way, is faith believing that the message passed onto man about how to behave is for the good of man and not the institutions who passed on the message or the being they serve (be it devine or otherwise).

What is the core belief drug that keeps people coming, the quest for some form of ascended enlightenment or simply the desire to have protection from something greater than yourself.

For me most religious systems have value, there seems to always be several tiers to any religion, we have the common worshippers who generally cow-tow to the religious authorities to protect themselves from divine (and church based) retribution, then possibly you have an initiate level where people actually use the scriptures as a foundation for deeper spiritual seeking, then you have the manipulators, these can exist in valid forms like local rabbi's or bishops who oversee a large area for administrative purposes and they can exist in the form of the non devout using the institution for their own material desires.

It seems that once a person truly begins to quest in a spiritual nature they are able to rise above the manipulative false dross planted in the various scriptures and commentaries of each religion and bring it to a new level which in part helps validate the control level that is being used on the general hedging your bets masses. There is no doubt surely there can be very holy / enlightened Christians and Jews and Muslims and members of other faiths as well, however just because some people are able to cleanse the taint off what their own religious stance has become and return it to a higher level, does not validate the mass produced versions of those religions.

I think its time for something new, sadly though too many people are still caught in the fear traps that mainstream western religion use to ensure their followers do not wander (i.e. the concept of hell amongst others).

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 08:00 PM
I go along with the idea that the big bang and Brahma is the same thing and has created a universe that enables Brahma to experience everything all at once

this creator does not need prayers or rituals and when we kill or do harm to someone else it is simply Brahma hurting himself to experience both the giving of hurt and the receiving of hurt at the same time

take a look

just like the big bang theory of the creation of the universe, Brahma exploded himself and became the universe exprssing itself at every point in the universe

that is why god allows injustice and disasters and why bad things happen to good people - because we are all - right down to the smallest atom - experiencing the universe - we are god's sensory organs and this god is like the robot in the movie 'short circuit' and wants more input and information

to all the devout people here - know that whatever you do to glorify your god - it is right or you to do that - you are experiencing the universe in exactly the way that god needs you to experinece it for him - if you believe the earth is alive then that is the right belief for you , if you believe that Christ was the saviour then that is the right belief for you etc

[i have made this the male gender just to leave the sentences uncomplicated but in fact i believe god is both genders and no gender all at the same time- go figure!]

me? I have my own path and no amount of reading any religion's books will convert me - sorry

posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 10:11 PM
God is a state of mind. A really great state of mind.
Available whenever you call on it to be there.

posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:20 PM
I want to approach this idea of religion from a sociobiological point of view, especially with regards to human evolution. As humans evolved, we lived in groups of about 30 or so for the most part (which interestingly enough is about the average size of a school room class or maybe the number or your own closest circle of friends and family). In these groups there was usually an alpha male as you often see in our closest living primates. We still have alpha males, kings, presidents etc., but in my opinion we are hard wired to believe in something more omnipotent: an all knowing alpha something. It brings us comfort knowing that there is someone vastly superior to us looking over us.
This explains the need for the white bearded god looking down upon us and telling us what we should do or not do. It does not however explain the awe and wonder some of us feel when looking at a beautiful sunset for example. This awe in my opinion has nothing to do with religion, we are products of our world and we appreciate beauty.
I was raised a Roman Catholic but have also studied other religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Zen, Tao, Wicca etc. Many seem to try to describe the world and our place in it. I take what I like from these “religions” and disregard the hate mongering many of them have. Bill Maher in his movie Religulous seems to indicate that believing in organized religion is basically a selfish act, in that if I follow the rules I will be saved and if other people have to die horribly, so be it.
In my own world view, god is the universe and we are all part of it. Life is a process (Tao) and not a place to get to (heaven). The connections we feel with everyone and everything is simple: we are all islands in a quantum sea, rising up from the sub-atomic ocean but still connected at the quantum level. There are an amazing number of articles related to quantum consciousness and biology now (some links: ).
This being said I believe that we should abandon religion altogether and instead live our lives in a moral way. Many religions defend immoral acts because “God is on our side”. Morality would be enforced by education in, omg, liberal arts, which train people how to think in morally and socially responsible ways rather than how fast can I make a buck and who cares about the road kill. Civil laws would be enforced for those people who just don’t get it, those that behave immorally because the devil (or god) told them to do it. Pipe dream? You bet.

posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:22 PM
Horrible mistakes can teach a wonderfull lesson. The very fact that in the infinite pissiblitys of reality that THIS here around us even exists is proof of some resonance or design. In this design we can easiliy see (if we choose to) how our actions effect and cascade through time.

Its not the perfection of the physical that is important. Its your desire and intentions towards life. If you have a pure/holy spirit in your desires for knowledge and wisdom then not only shall you seek it in your desire but you will hold on to every crumb not just for your sake but for others.

There are people out there dispensing wisdom to help you avoid pain. if you have no ability to decern what is pure/holy then you can not have faith in it. You cannot learn from things that you have no faith in. In that lack of faith there is no desire for implimentation of that wisdom into your own life.

With my pure desire i can see it in others and in the way they speak. From that prespective it is easy to see and have faith in those words and by doing so avoid pain of consequence. i have chosen to read everything and allow these trillions to become my one and that pure intention to guide me.

posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 12:43 PM
Wow,just Wow.How many people here are going to deny God's existence,when being in this world full of Intelligent Design?Tell me this....if God isn't real(YAHWEH) then how did the Bible know that the Earth was floating without anything holding it up?

JOB Chapter 26:7 says, "He spreads out the northern [skies] over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing."

"He draws up the drops of water, which distill as rain to the streams; the clouds pour down their moisture and abundant showers fall on mankind." - Job 36:27-28

"He wraps up the waters in his clouds, yet the clouds do not burst under their weight." - Job 26:8

The wind blows to the south and turns to the north; round and round it goes, ever returning on its course. All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the place the streams come from, there they return again. - Ecclesiastes 1:6-7

Religion is False,and God is real,God being Jesus and Yahweh.

Hebrews 1 8-10

"But unto the Son he saith,Thy throne,O God is forever and ever."

God calling Jesus....God,WOW.

I could post so many Bible Verses that fly right over people's heads man,God is real,believe.

posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:08 PM
Now tell me how many people who are religious investigate the religion?

I can not see how after investigating religion you still would believe in what it tells you unless you have IQ of monkey.

In fact I don't think monkeys believe in God.

posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 01:49 PM
the catholic religion and Dante's Inferno. Enough said. Read them both you will see

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