Obama wants 'price signals'

Leftard meddling in the economy through pricing rarely works. If they push it too far all it does it create an underground economy. Smokes are probably a good example.

Another good example is our gearhead of a Premier up here in British Columbia. Even though his government is centre right, he has spent the past year desperately kissing every leftard's fanny in a foolish attempt to ensure he'll get re-elected next spring as he wants to be the man shaking all the dignitaries when the winter olympics come here in 2010.

So last July he implimented a 2c/ltre "carbon tax" at the gas pumps that will rise over the years to 12c/ltre. Talk about "timing" as oil was well north of $100/bbl at the time. It has completely blown up in his face and if an election were held today he would lose. Not only would he lose, he would lose to the wackjob lefty party that almost SINGLEHANDIDLY destroyed this province's economy the last time they were in power in the 90's! (Like, how bad is that?)

Lastly, just to give you an idea how stupid this carbon tax was, the price of gas at the pumps basically DOUBLED between 2005 and 2008 here in BC and during that time gas consumption province wide actually INCREASED. i.e. like a 2c/ltre gas tax is going to do anything to reduce consumption.

Best of luck to my American friends!

JK

[edit on 3-11-2008 by leo123]

Originally posted by shauny
4 years of McCain will push the world to WW3 (FACT)

Care to start a new thread detailing your proof of this statement? I'm sure you will have plenty of participants if you do have proof that this statement is fact and not just your opinion.

Good thing I wasn't voting for this spineless, communist gob in the first place. This just reinforces my opinion.

Here sa news flash for some of you jokers. Not everyone can get by on some tiny little economy car. some of us oh my god, let me say it.. need a truck for their job, lifestyle, or so on, why are these people going ot be penalized just so you can feel smug about your vehicle?

yes, workmen who need vans to transport tools and materials on a daily basis. they lose out, and they already pay extra just for their license plates (in IL at least. truck plate). Others such as myself who are practicing musicians need a truck to haul gear around, constantly. oh wait, we'll be forced to pay more too, then its not even economically viable to persue that second job, let alone a life long passion in music. I guess that means I also should likely pack it up and not do my charity benefits either, since I can't afford to move my instruments to the venue. Don't worry, the kids will understand.

I smoke too, and I don't plan on quitting. I already pay extreme taxes here, so I go one county over and pay half price for my smokes. Guess what numbnuts, its not to change my behavior, its so the powers that be can exploit a large group of addicts for more of that holy cashola. Oh but coffin bro, you can quit smoking any time you want! Yeah right, Stop being a pompous ass first, and inspire me.

now, who else here notices something.. never at any point does this non resident alien of a candidate mentioning LOWERING taxes on necessary items.

Lets forget green for a bit too. Too expensive, and frankly, all you do gooders should pay triple for your so called eco friendly cars in taxes for all the plastics, toxic manufacturing and waste that went into getting you your extra 10-15 mpg.. oh wait, but that doesn't matter, the friendly eco friendly good guy badge masks the stink of your own hypocrisy, doesn't it? The novel notion of getting more people to buy and the price will go down is bunk as well. you know it, I know it, lets cut the crap for a bit, shall we? Until you, or the government is willing to put up or shut up and offer a subsidy for most people to 'go green' with alternitive fuel and energy sources, just please for once shut your yap and quit being an armchair environmentalist.

Lets face it, not everyone is going to do it your way, since many of us think your way is crap. There are those like me that consume more, and at the same time give a lot more back, more than you do, and if you want to compare, feel free to step up and PM me to discuss it, and you'll feel ashamed in no time.

reply to post by arizonascott


Amen

What meaningless rhetoric....

When Obama makes it expensive enough for those of sufficient means to seek alternative energy options, THEY will be the only ones to truly benefit. When they are 'off the grid', who will be paying for the energy subsidy to support supply for the remaining poor?

Obama's thinking on this is so flawed.

Dream on people.

Not even I believe he can, or will, pursue this disastrous course.



[edit on 3-11-2008 by loam]

More tax is NEVER the answer! And using LESS energy is NOT the answer!

Eliminate the Federal Reserve Bank. And in short order we will have enough money to invest in infrastructure for renewable energy. Nobody would even feel it in the pocket-book because we'd all be twice as rich if there were no Federal Reserve Bank.

Other Libertarian policies would need to be in place for all this to work, but like most other problems we have, the solution lies in abolishing the Federal Reserve Bank.

We'll NEVER go backward on how much energy we use. That's not even a realistic option. That's just pandering to 20th century conservationalist mentality. We desperately need to move toward cheap renewable energy so we CAN use as much energy as we want.

[edit on 3-11-2008 by Liberty1]

Let's see which slimy politician creeps up first to provide a solution with the fascist "carbon tax".

It's going to be interesting to watch how the Democrats put laws in place to finish the job of completely fleecing the American people.

It'll be a nice change of pace from watching Republicans AND Democrats fight over who could rob us more.

Originally posted by marg6043
Isn't that what states does already on some goods and services?

Sorry to bring this to you my friends.

But with the economical mess we are in no matter if is Obama or McCain we are due for the ride of our lives.

In order to fix the corporate ridden president legacy of bush and help the nation is actually with taxes increases, cut spending and yes the defense budget.

In 2009 our nation will no have enough money to pay for services.

Remember people that we are bailing out with tax payer the wealthy elite and the global banks.

So how come now I see so much outrage at what Obama may do?

We already have not problem bending over for what it has been done to us so far.

[edit on 3-11-2008 by marg6043]

Finally !

Someone gets it...

Very few ppl realize what is coming and the financial bomb
that is about to go off will make the housing crisis look like
a speed bump.

The derivatives fiasco reminds me of the 700+ shell corps setup
in the Caymans by Enron to hide their real debt load.

The same thing has been done with unlisted, and unregulated
derivatives on the OTC to the "tune" of 600+ Trillion.

Yes, Trillion with a "T".

www.newsweek.com...

They try to talk it down like it is not a big deal, and they cancel
each other out, but some companies have invested in a lopsided
portion on one side and not in a cancelling manner.

Some of these derivatives are where some of the companies
are hiding their true debt loads, just like enron did.

Old game, new tricks.

Originally posted by CoffinFeeder
yes, workmen who need vans to transport tools and materials on a daily basis.

Oh, good! I found something in all that rot to respond to!

You have a good point here. Putting this into practice would not be simple. Because, like you said, some use trucks and vans for their job and it's necessary that they drive them daily. There's also the guy who's driving a gas hog car that's all he can afford. He's going to work and making a living, but just enough to get by. He can't afford a smaller, newer car.

I HATE blanket statements, and blanket laws, too. But I'm sure there are people who could figure out how to make this work for everyone.

Oh but coffin bro, you can quit smoking any time you want! Yeah right, Stop being a pompous ass first, and inspire me.

I'd be glad to. I quit smoking August 19, 2001 after smoking for nearly 30 years and trying to quit 10 times or more! It was HARD! If you're interested, U2U me and I'll tell you what I did.

now, who else here notices something.. never at any point does this non resident alien of a candidate mentioning LOWERING taxes on necessary items.

He lives in Chicago (resident) and he was born in Hawaii (non-alien). But he DOES mention lowering taxes, not on items, but for the middle class and the poor.

You can find our how much your taxes would go down here.

reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic


So your answer is you pay any way you go. In order to cut energy costs you pay to save on costs which you average out anyways. Or just accept the increase in cost.Lets justjack the prices up until something or someone blows. Wow I cant believe my eye's. Prices for everything are increrasing. You are going to create a way for the lower and middle class to barely make it at the end of the year with this type of thinking.

To the people commenting on the high cost of investment in solar panels, it's sort of a catch 22, that will in the end benefit everyone.

If all the people who can afford solar panels suddenly have a huge incentive to do so, prices of production will drop making them far more affordable to the average consumer. It will also lead to more money being invested in the development of cheaper panels, and an increase in service-based installation jobs.

Everyone wins!

reply to post by Nivek Serca


Not I. Don't even try to lay this in my lap. It has been known since the 1970's that this day was coming. But did anybody with the means do anything about it? Hell no. Just keep driving huge cars with one person in them, don't invest in any meaningfull way in the R&D necessary to get past it, hell no.

Now, when the problem is so obvious even the troglodytes can't help but notice, and the pain of fixing it is considerably higher than it would have been 30 years ago, and we still have huge resistance to it.

The piper has been playing, and now it's time to pay up.

But it aint 'cause of me. I have done my part - yes, since the freaking '70s - to minimize, save, re-use blah blah blah. I'm an adherent of "use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without".

So don't come crying to me.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
sos37 - Obama's not talking about taxes or "hiking taxes on things". I'm not talking about a luxury tax on yachts or trips to Las Vegas. It's not about what wealthy people can afford.

If you can afford a yacht, go for it. But when it comes to the NON-RENEWABLE RESOURCES we ALL use, if you're going to waste it like there's no tomorrow, then you should have to pay more for it. Per Unit!

If I scrimp and save and turn off lights and bike and take the bus, I don't think I should pay the same per gallon as the guy who drives his Hummer by himself 50 miles a day without a care. And not enough people are doing it voluntarily to make the difference we ALL need.

I could afford it, by the way. This isn't about being poor or rich. It's about the Earth running out of the means of supporting us.

Dog Food is NOT a non-renewable resource.

Okay, so if the intent is to safeguard non-renewable resources that are non-renewable, then why focus on tax increases instead of tax credits and incentives to people who do the right thing instead?

What I hear coming from Obama consistently is "punish the wealthy for being wealthy" or "force the wealthy to share". The wealthy do share, by creating jobs and paying higher taxes already.

And, if non-renewable resources are such an issue, where are the incentives to get more farms built? Where are the incentives for science programs to produce clean water from tainted water? These are the most non-renewable resources we use now and with population growth happening the way it is, food and water shortage will surely become a serious issue - especially with so many farmers making a switch to corn crops to support this ridiculous ethanol push.

I'm not sure if it's the right way to go about fixing it, but the U.S. does waste a LOT of resources, every day. I work for an enviromental company, and they've really jumped on the "green" bandwagon lately. It's amazing how much we waste.

When I was serving in Korea, and in the showers with the KATUSA soldiers (Korean augmentation to U.S. forces), American GIs would do the regular thing. The Korean soldiers would, just by way of habit of saving water, turn on the water, get wet and lather hair. Turn off water. Wash and do hair without any running water. Turn back on to rinse. Turn off and brush teeth while in shower. Turn on to finish. They'd use a fraction of the water we did. It was an eye-opener for me. We waste food, energy, gas, and natural resources. At the gas station, you get the option for no receipt. At the store, I do not, and in fact, get an amazing 12 inch piece of paper for buying two things, plus another spits out coupons I"ll never use.

So.. while perhaps this isn't the right method to do it (although I think people are blowing stuff out of proportion), it's nice to have someone who wants while in office, to actually try changing the things that need to be changed.

Originally posted by sos37
Okay, so if the intent is to safeguard non-renewable resources that are non-renewable, then why focus on tax increases instead of tax credits and incentives to people who do the right thing instead?

THIS IS NOT ABOUT TAXES. Sorry, I've said that twice and you still bring up taxes. I'm not talking about taxes. I'm talking about "Price Signals".

And people who do the right thing ARE getting incentives. If you Solarize your home, you get a great tax cut here. Those are good things.

Originally posted by Liberty1
Let's see which slimy politician creeps up first to provide a solution with the fascist "carbon tax".

Al Gore is already making money on a faux- carbon footprint scam.
He's getting companies to buy and sell carbon credits.

Originally posted by sos37
I see this as being the first step in telling us how to live, morally. Next he will be telling us when we can and cannot watch TV, what we can and cannot drive, etc.

EXACTLY! The left complains that the right is always trying to push right wing morals onto them. This 'price signals' is just the "peace loving", "tolerant" left showing their facist colors - tolerance only for what they think is correct. It's them pushing their version of morals onto everyone else. It's a slippery slope and if anyone thinks it's just going to be 'carbon footprint' and 'sin tax' items ... .... that's being myopic.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by sos37
Okay, so if the intent is to safeguard non-renewable resources that are non-renewable, then why focus on tax increases instead of tax credits and incentives to people who do the right thing instead?

THIS IS NOT ABOUT TAXES. Sorry, I've said that twice and you still bring up taxes. I'm not talking about taxes. I'm talking about "Price Signals".

And people who do the right thing ARE getting incentives. If you Solarize your home, you get a great tax cut here. Those are good things.

"Price signals" is price fixing.
Price fixing is regulation.
Regulation is always bad.
Regulation is what causes the price fixing to begin with.
Regulation always leads to more corruption.
Corruption in the form of theft and inefficient bureocracies.
Which leads to more spending.
Which means an increase in the money supply through either printing money or selling federal securities.
Which leads to inflation.
Which is known as the "poor tax" or the "inflation tax".

So, I disagree with you because it's ALWAYS about taxes.

reply to post by detachedindividual


great call, i totally agree

reply to post by Liberty1


Yeah its always a tax no matter what else you want to call it. If the government takes your money its a tax. You can call it a price signal or the loving benevolent government fund.. but its still a tax.

What no one seems to understand is taxes are going up no matter who is in office. Do people not understand the nature of the crisis that just hit and the bigger economic crisis that is still to come? It seems like people aren't getting it.

Nothing is going to be the same...everyone's standard of living is going to dive, the middle class will drop more and more into poverty. Even those of us who want to put ourselves first by "keeping our wealth to ourselves" will pray that the government will help us once we are all jobless and have lost our homes, once we see the people we care about going under.

We are still in a downward spiral and the landing is going to be more and more traumatic.

Right now the value of the dollar is up, but this is temporary. Once the value of the dollar plummets and hyperinflation hits, once we begin to have our taxes increased (because we have to pay for the bailout, remember?) and jobs continue to evaporate...it's gonna get ugly. Why do you think that our government has been preparing for military crowd control?

I just feel like people are whinning about "their money" but, hello, you going to lose what you have. Jobs are tanking daily and more banks are going to go under...this is just the beginning.

You have to read a ton, and I mean, a ton, to understand what Wall Street is so volatile. The crap is going to hit the fan!