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School Clams Up on 'Gay' Pledge Cards Given to Kindergartners

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posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 09:49 PM
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Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by TheRedneck
But the real reason for my post to you is to make a suggestion and get your (and of course, others') response to it:

IF homosexual urges could be shown to be chemically-based (endocrinological) and IF it was shown that a safe potential treatment existed that could change the homosexual urges to heterosexual ones, and IF such treatment were to be offered voluntarily, would you approve of such offers, or would you condemn them?

TheRedneck


Again, you will find most of my opinion revolves around two things.

The individual and externalities.

I would approve because of the key word "voluntary".

However, just as I'm sure if you could do this and make someone straight you could do the same thing and make someone gay...

Would anyone ever want to voluntarily turn gay? Probably not but if it is voluntary I'd let anyone do anything they want as long as it has no direct negative externalities.

--

Now for a further point, would we allow either of these treatments on children?


I think that any parent should feel obligated to make sure that their children's hormones are balanced correctly. Homosexualty aside, most records show that people with hormone imbalances tend to live shorter lives. It's just simply a fact that a male that has, what is considered to be, a normal level of testosterone is less likely to have homosexual urges.




Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by timidobserver
The purpose of sex is reproduction


This is pretty much your whole point.

Fortunately it is an opinion.

Sex certainly leads to reproduction in many cases.

However, correlation is not causation and vice versa.

Many animals besides humans have sex for pleasure or other reasons. Biologically sex often leads to reproduction, however the idea that this is the "purpose" is claiming to understand creation.



No it's not an opinion. I guess I am claiming to understand creation then? Most reasonable people agree that everything that survives on this planet is given a method of reproduction, and that is the purpose of sex for humans. Are you trying to say that reproduction and survival of a species is some how optional or a nice perk that comes along with the pleasure?


[edit on 6-11-2008 by timidobserver]




posted on Nov, 6 2008 @ 10:38 PM
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reply to post by PoliticalRevolutionUND
 


I'm gay and have only met one person that questioned where their sexuality started. It was a dear friend that claimed to have been raped repeatedly by his step father. Other than that all gays I have met will say they felt "different" even as small children. Myself I recognized this at seven years old.

My father was a Sunday School Teacher and a Deacon for a very strict religious group so it wasn't upbringing. So at seven I wasn't sitting around thinking lustful of schoolmates. I was making emotion bonds between friends that seemed to me out of the ordinary and couldn't understand why.
I found myself playing house with girls often and with dolls as well as boy things like playing baseball etc...

At seven a teacher beat my hand with a paddle because I was caught holding hands with another boy. My explanation to the teacher was, "He is my boyfriend." The teacher sat me to the side and quoted bible verses and explained I was being nasty. I had no understanding what she was talking about but, felt really out of place now like a broken toy.

Suffice it to say I still don't think children understand the cards. I wouldn't have. A pledge of being nice to all people would be good enough and that goes for adults too.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 12:03 AM
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Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by Epinephrine
If homosexuality were proven to be a choice then homosexuality would be viewed as an unnatural condition and could very well be reclassified as a mental illness.


Hmm, you kind of contradict yourself.


Not really, though I could have worded it better. Repeated behavior leads to changes in the brain that reinforce that behavior. Choice has an effect on the brain that leads to further inclination to make the same choice(or adverse to that choice, in the case of unpleasant stimuli like pain), these changes being the condition. Because thought and behavior affects the structure of the brain there's no real, clear separation between behavior and condition(unless you're comatose and have no thought).

[edit on 7-11-2008 by Epinephrine]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 06:27 AM
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Originally posted by toochaos4u
reply to post by PoliticalRevolutionUND
 


I'm gay and have only met one person that questioned where their sexuality started. It was a dear friend that claimed to have been raped repeatedly by his step father. Other than that all gays I have met will say they felt "different" even as small children. Myself I recognized this at seven years old.

My father was a Sunday School Teacher and a Deacon for a very strict religious group so it wasn't upbringing. So at seven I wasn't sitting around thinking lustful of schoolmates. I was making emotion bonds between friends that seemed to me out of the ordinary and couldn't understand why.
I found myself playing house with girls often and with dolls as well as boy things like playing baseball etc...

At seven a teacher beat my hand with a paddle because I was caught holding hands with another boy. My explanation to the teacher was, "He is my boyfriend." The teacher sat me to the side and quoted bible verses and explained I was being nasty. I had no understanding what she was talking about but, felt really out of place now like a broken toy.

Suffice it to say I still don't think children understand the cards. I wouldn't have. A pledge of being nice to all people would be good enough and that goes for adults too.








That was my whole point to begin with. While I will never believe that some people are born gay, its just not right what that teacher did.


A pledge of being nice to all people would be good enough and that goes for adults too




[edit on 7-11-2008 by PoliticalRevolutionUND]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 06:43 AM
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There is new theory that single mothers, having to act more fatherly, and masculine towards their male children, causes the male children to reject the confusing message coming from their single parent, the feminine mother also acting masculine. All the theories focus on is releasing the individual from repsonal responsibility for their actions and choices.

Bottom line :"Mommy sat me on the Potty crooked, that why I am like this."

Still, the choice is there, with the exception of XXY chromosomes.

Homosexuality used to be diagnosed as gender identity disorder, in the DSM III, and then the APA got infiltrated by gay friendly shrinks, so they eliminated that from the diagnostic manual.

APA is currently considering eliminating Narcissistic Personality Disorder as well beecause it is so common anymore in this "ME,ME,ME) mentality today.

APA= American Psychological Association
DSM= Diagnostic Statistical Manual Third Edition



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 07:40 AM
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reply to post by fmcanarney
 


There is a big difference between knowing what the DSM is and how it is read and used, as well as put together in the first place.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 08:56 AM
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reply to post by fmcanarney

You are apparently more intimately familiar with medical/psychiatric theories than I, but I have heard similar things. I have also witnessed similar things.

I have had the privilege in my life to know many different people from many different backgrounds. And many of those are gay. While the majority of the gay people I have known have some things in common with each other (never making a conscious choice, early sexual urges), there is also a wide range of details.

Quite a few have been abused as a child. This abuse ranges from mental to physical to sexual molestation, both hetero- and homosexual. In every such case, though, this abuse has been in the years prior to age 8. This does not, however, cover every single person, even in my limited knowledge.

There seems to be a larger number than one would expect statistically from uber-religious backgrounds. Generally, it is my experience that those from such backgrounds are convinced that something is 'wrong' with them and that they are an exception. It appears to be that the opposite is true.

There is indeed a select group who actively attempt to recruit others, albeit a small one. I know one guy who actually states he is not interested in meeting other gays; he prefers "straight men".


A little less than half claim they would like to have more normal urges, but simply cannot.

Still checking on the zinc correlation...

TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


It is very common for gays to desire and seek straight men for partners. It is something that I saw constantly expressed in the gay community. It kind of gives the impression that they know(at least on some level) that people can be made gay but refuse to acknowledge that the reverse sexual conversion is true as well.

I found some medical research that talks about zinc level differences between homosexual and heterosexual men. Do a search for the word "zinc" to find it.

www.clinchem.org...

Apparently homosexual men have weird zinc levels, especially when you look at the chart. There was no significant difference between the zinc levels of HIV positive and HIV negative homosexuals, so it seems to be something specific to gays.

edit:

Also, www.bmj.com... More informed speculation than research but very interesting.

[edit on 7-11-2008 by Epinephrine]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 09:39 AM
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I think the schools need to leave the teaching of such morals and tactfulness to me and do their damn job and teach arithmetic or read the Cat and the Hat.

These are the kind of things I would like to teach my child. See thats the friggen problem with public schools. They do a piss poor job teaching the things they are spoused to and then put their nose in issues that are inappropriate for them to teach without a parent present or permission. I don't need some teacher pushing some agenda.

Your probably thinking "but they are just teaching the children to not be hateful toward people who are different". Forget that crap!

People in wheelchairs are different, children with down syndrome are different.
Transvestites,gay people,metro sexual people and whatever the hell else they call themselves are living a careless confused life and I don't care how much society accepts it now days its friggen WRONG!

Thats why children are so confused nowadays. They get all this crap thrown at them too early and they don't know what to think.

Stop trying to force feed my child a way of life that is not proper. I don't want my children desensitized to that garbage at 5 years old. I know how to talk to my child about these things. My job! Not some teacher with pamphlets. That is a boundary a teacher or school should not cross in my opinion.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by Epinephrine

It is very common for gays to desire and seek straight men for partners.

Hmmmm, that is very interesting, as are the two links you provided. thanks again.

I am learning some interesting things that challenge what I thought I knew about homosexuality. My friend, you are a wealth of knowledge. Star, again, and this time I'm adding you as a friend. If this research keeps leading the path it seems to be following, I am sure I'll need all the backup I can get!


TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 02:05 PM
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I'm glad to see this thread turn more to the positive side.

Also, there are many different, and very interesting theories being tossed around. I've never really thought of most of this stuff before, but I can always trust other members of ATS to bring cool theories like these to the table.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


Oh I'm not sure I'll be much help to you(a redneck teamed up with a reptilian alien abductee would be the two biggest liberal scapegoats combined) but it could be fun along the way.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by timidobserver
I think that any parent should feel obligated to make sure that their children's hormones are balanced correctly.


Everyone has different hormone levels that change variably. Homosexuality is not considered a negative effect by many.


Originally posted by timidobserver
No it's not an opinion...Are you trying to say that reproduction and survival of a species is some how optional or a nice perk that comes along with the pleasure?


Of course it is an opinion....I believe sex is for reproduction AND pleasure. The same evidence that leads you to believe sex is for reproduction is what leads me to believe it is for pleasure also.

And again...how can it not be optional? We decide to do it...

Stating the "purpose" of sex is not fact and never can be.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 02:55 PM
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reply to post by Jezus

Everyone has different hormone levels that change variably. Homosexuality is not considered a negative effect by many.

I believe he was referring to the question I asked earlier. I'd appreciate your views as well:
Post by TheRedneck


I believe sex is for reproduction AND pleasure. The same evidence that leads you to believe sex is for reproduction is what leads me to believe it is for pleasure also.

I would say the pleasure is a means of encouraging the use of sex for reproduction, not an end in itself. Without reproduction any species would die out after a single generation; therefore reproduction is essential to the continuation of the species. If such actions were not pleasurable, then there would likely not be enough of them to perpetuate the species.

With that explanation, sexual activity is for the prime biological purpose of reproduction. The pleasure is an integral part of it, yes, but as a biological reward for the actions, not as an end in itself.


Stating the "purpose" of sex is not fact and never can be.

I dunno, seems pretty simple to me...

TheRedneck



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by Jezus

Originally posted by timidobserver
I think that any parent should feel obligated to make sure that their children's hormones are balanced correctly.


Of course it is an opinion....I believe sex is for reproduction AND pleasure. The same evidence that leads you to believe sex is for reproduction is what leads me to believe it is for pleasure also.


Isn't that a bit like stating that the purpose of eating is pleasure on the basis that eating provides pleasure just like sex does? Would you argue that the purpose of eating is for pleasure against someone who believed that eating was for survival? You can see what's happened from accepting eating for pleasure as one of eating's primary functions: nations of fat, diabetic youth who can't focus on anything. Sex for pleasure has equally unhealthy, well known side effects. Take the gay community's physical health and see where sex for pleasure has gotten them.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 04:12 PM
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Eating for pleasure results in gluttony becoming the norm.
Sex for pleasure results in lust being the norm.
Chemicals for pleasure resulte in addictions being the norm.

Temperance in all things.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 04:13 PM
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There is a difference between cause and effect.

Many points in the last two posts are based on assumption.

"Purpose" from a human's perspective on reality can ONLY be an opinion.

If YOU create something than you can know the purpose.

--


Originally posted by fmcanarney
Eating for pleasure results in gluttony becoming the norm.
Sex for pleasure results in lust being the norm.
Chemicals for pleasure resulte in addictions being the norm.


Those are GIANT assumptions.

I can use all those things for pleasure in moderation.

[edit on 7-11-2008 by Jezus]

[edit on 7-11-2008 by Jezus]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 08:46 PM
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Personally I think the whole structure of society has gone completely bezerk in the fact that it seem anything becomes the norm as long as its repeated enough.

For example, how many people watch the news in shock when a couple have been killed in drink driving accidents. I don't know of one. Because its fed to us so often that it becomes the norm and thats the most disturbing thing about the society we live in today.

No one I know of has the guts to put there foot down and say enough, this is where we draw the line and if we do want to draw a line we are accused of not being accepting...... completely ludicrous. How far does it have to go, do we have to accept all and anything because we are to afraid to say 'enough'. Will it come to the point where if a couple has sex in public you cant say a word because your supposed to be accepting.......is that what it has to come to to draw the line?

I knew a gay guy at highschool (secondary school) and I noticed the one thing that he lacked was self questioning because he decided to take the easier way and slap a 'gay' badge on himself. There was no inquisitive nature about him at all, he just blindly accepted his label as gay and that was it.

Right here is the issue, If I know there is something not quite right with me, do I go and get it checked out or make a 'Persistent Arrogance Disorder' and move on with my life. The problem is thats exactly what a majority of gays and other non heterosexual types do, they are assigned a label and move on.

As far as Im concerned the first question a non heterosexual should ask themselves is 'why am I like this' and get it checked out via medical examination, possible hormone imbalances things like that. They should not blindly ignore it, slap a gay badge on and say its a lifestyle and I think its because they are afraid to see the truth, that it cant be ignored and there is something wrong.

Whatever lifestyle people wish to take on is their choice but dont expect it to become the norm and have all the issues and inner questions disappear because they will not be honest with themselves as so many do.

Its pretty basic there is a female and male, now unless you live in total denial and self arrogance the first question any gay should ask them selves is 'why am I holding hands with a guy instead of a girl' or 'girl with girl'.

Or the simpler more arrogant approach is 'Im gay its my lifestylye' sure its easier but it doesn't provide any answers, unless they want to pretend there are none in the first place


[edit on 7-11-2008 by Drakiir]



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 09:43 PM
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reply to post by Drakiir
 


It is ironic you talk about arrogance/

Arrogant is thinking that you can decide that something that negatively effects no one is negative.



posted on Nov, 7 2008 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by Jezus
 


It is ironic you talk about arrogance/

Arrogant is thinking that you can decide that something that negatively effects no one is negative.


If I were as arrogant as you claim I would slap a 'social badge' on myself and dismiss whatever problem there is. And its also nice that you can speak on behalf of the billions as in you saying 'no one'.

Why do you think so many are apposed to gay marriage, are they included in your 'no one' also?

Personally my thoughts are honestly in it being a chemical imbalance of too much estrogen and not enough testosterone, just my theory. There was also an article I read about geneticists being able to adjust chemicals in insects to 'turn off' the gay attraction and it was as success.

They got a male and female insect to mate with each other and after they did some chemical adjustments, the male insect mated with another male. I know its on an small level in it dealing with insects but I think it further points toward my theory of a chemical imbalance.

The only reason why I don't understand allot of gays is because they think branding it a lifestyle will dissolve the question of 'why am I into guys'. Of course societies training to accept absolutely and anything as normal from enough repetition will encourage no answers or even questions for that matter.

We are in a world today where allot problems regarding gender are met with a simple sentence 'it doesnt matter how different you are, we accept you'. Thats all nice and 'happyland' but that does not make the 'difference' disappear. Its highly arrogant and dismissive and it does not solve the issue.

Now there is arrogance on a global level, we should be solving these issues instead of picking what label to stick on it


Here is a saying you might want to remember 'in a world where anything is normal their is no room to distinguish fact and fiction'.

[edit on 7-11-2008 by Drakiir]



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