[edit on 1-11-2008 by norskie]

The problem is, in this country the rich actually work hard for their money and deserve it.

Not all of 'em! I can quote and cite a good deal of thieves who have built their empires on the backs of the poor. Petty and otherwise. I'll start with my ex landlord and work my way up to every stuffed shirt pig we have lounging around in Washington soaking up our tax dollars.

I am not a socialist- just pointing out the flaw in what was said- tho THOSE people should be stripped of everything and have it distributed to their victims first, paying double what was taken, then to everyone else. Think of it as 'honesty socialism'. ;-)

[edit on 1-11-2008 by wylekat]

Yet another reason America is NOT the greatest country on Earth!

Okay, first off. ANYONE who believes we are/have been a Capitalist country needs to go to a basic Economics class and then do some long and hard research about America the Beautiful. That is one point...

Point Number Two: Our "Capitalist," "Free Market" wielding leaders just bailed out ALL of Wall Street. Before that, they were bailing out companies anyway. In Capitalism, those companies fall and they fall HARD. Where's the invisible hand? It doesn't matter because we have the entirely visible hand of the government telling us it's necessary that we do this to save our economy and overall livelihood. Okay, if that's true and for the sake of argument let's say that it is, that we need the government to step in and oversee business and their regulations, enforce stricter business practices, is that Capitalism? The next argument might be "We the people didn't want that, the government did it!" HELLO, DOESN'T MATTER, NOT CAPITALISM!

Point Number Three: One ideology is not ultimately superior compared to the other. They each have flaws. One flaw of Capitalism, as already pointed out, is you end up with the power residing in the hands of only the wealthy. Okay, if this country is the country by the people for the people yadda yadda, why is it that we are now ran by corporations and big business such as the Military Industrial Complex, Big Pharma, and Lobbyists? Why can't we move on to sustainable energy and why are we addicted to petroleum products? Why are things such as "Earmarks" and "pork" such a big deal? The economic/societal ideologies as they stand in America are corrupt, failing, and we allow it. Why do we allow it? Well, because were are super busy with my next point...

Three: Race, religion, ideologies... America is a country divided, definitely not united. We let ourselves fall into useless traps of back and forth bickering White vs. Any other Race, Christianity vs. Any other religion, Status Quo vs. any other thinking.... Personally, I think to understand ANYTHING you have to rationally look at both sides without any preconceived notions. I am not trained to think one thing is ultimately great and the other ultimately inferior. Get over that line of thinking. It's pathetic. Unfortunately, way too many people have been bombarded with so much stimuli that this is their ONLY way of thinking. Christianity = Best. White = best. Capitalism = Best. Democrat/Republican = Best. Pop Music = Best. Rap Music = Best. Country Music = Best. You're all nothing but jokers.

Seriously, I am falling further and further into disgust with ATS as well as the entirety of America because of all this B/S.

SOCIALISM IS NOT BAD. EVERYTHING YOUR PARENTS TOLD YOU IS NOT TRUE. EVERYTHING YOUR TEACHERS TOLD YOU IS NOT TRUE. GET OFF THE COMPUTER, PUT DOWN YOUR IPOD, PUT DOWN YOUR IPHONE, PUT DOWN YOUR XBOX, READ A BOOK, CRITICALLY THINK, RATIONALIZE, ASK QUESTIONS, FIND THE ANSWER YOURSELF, LEARN, EVOLVE YOUR LINE OF THOUGHT.

sheesh.

Socialism is a system that seeks to reward those less fortunate in life instead of punishing them. To the fortunate, who dosn't understand that god dosn't deal everyone the same hand to each individual, this might seem unfair. But in the end if you help the less fortunate you will have higher morale and production than you would ever have by punishing them.

Socialism is good for the unity. Capitalism is good for succesful individuals and bad for the rest.

I'm sad to see how most people seem to think that it is a bad thing.

Originally posted by LogicalExplanation
If he does this, people will no longer want to try hard and become wealthy themselves, since their money will just be taken any way. So what would be the point in going out and making something of yourself? Absolutely nothing. With no one going out and forming businesses, hiring employees, etc, etc, our nation's infrastructure and economy would flat out collapse.


For anyone that believes in Socialism, I dare you to actually move to a Socialist nation and live there. Hmm, no takers? You would rather prefer to stay here in our capitalist paradise? That's what I thought.

[edit on 31-10-2008 by LogicalExplanation]

So, people won't actually live their lives in greed and chasing money? They will only go into a certain business for a better reason? Maybe people will actually go into businesses for the good of the community? or because they enjoy that area of study?

Hey, we might actually get somewhere as a community!!

No.. we want to have a completely corrupt political system that's ran by greed and servitude to the wealthy.

Obama's plan is unfair to some people, but it would actually encourage many to plan their life and careers around something other than greed and money.

what has capitalism got us? a screwed up economy due to greed. some say socialism isn't fair so does that mean capitalism is fair? is it truly fair that a blue-collar working busting his butt off day in and day out can only make enough money to get by even when he's usually putting in more effort per week than a high paid CEO? The people who rise to the top... do they really deserve their 'hard earned cash' over every one else? Is that what people call fair?

We already have the technology and resources to feed every human on earth with a minimal amount of effort. it's just a matter of changing our priorities and 'sharing the wealth'. earth as a whole could be very wealthy, but the elitists out there only care about gaining personal wealth.

I'm pretty well off myself and I know that the main thing that keeps the economy going is the lower and middle class which usually do the hardest work. When the middle class suffers, everyone suffers. I'm glad to share my wealth and I do so by donating to charities. I'm not saying a pure socialist society is better than a pure capitalist society but I do think we need to have some sort of hybrid society where everyone's basic needs are given to them while everything else you gotta cough up some dough for.

[edit on 1-11-2008 by curiousbeliever]

interesting thread, thought I'd come out of the shadows to put in my piece. FYI I live in Canada and think anyone in America happy with the direction the election has gone needs to get their head checked. It was blatantly obvious a year ago that Obama was the media's choice candidate, where is the democracy? They tell you the polls each day so that come election day no one freaks out when their choice is elected, everyone saw it coming. My point here is that Obama represents more of the same, his strings are pulled by the same masters regardless of his personal political/economic opinions. So the question of socialism good/bad is irrelevant. You already have corporate socialism, as many have already pointed out.

But in all this thread I was a bit surprised that no one mentioned what I consider the biggest reason pure socialism would not work in America: America is a giant target for every other country, especially right now. In an international system, countries pressure other countries, sometimes physically but usually economically, to gain a step and become more powerful. This is the reason the USSR failed, because socialism cannot exist in a nation within an international community. Everyone who thinks socialism is great and blah blah free health care blah blah equality, well what does that do to your countries standing in comparison to the others internationally? Socialism works in Canada in particular precisely because we don't have to be America. We don't have to spend money on defense (big one), we don't have a large homeless population (it gets too f-ing cold to stay on the streets all year). I can't speak for Europe, I'm not sure if socialism works there or not but I would guess if it does it is for similar reasons; most countries don't have the same international pressures as the US.

Socialism in America would lead to disaster because other countries like China India and Russia would pick it apart until there was nothing left. Socialism can only work if it is implemented globally, and even then I have my doubts.

Don't be fooled though, the republicans represent socialism just as much as the democrats, you have been tricked into choosing from heads or tails of the same coin (and the value of that coin is declining). They both want to take your money and give it to people who don't need it because they have this flawed idea that subsidizing an industry somehow helps it. It only promotes monopolies of lazy corporations whose profits are your tax dollars, and in some states they have the nerve to tax you again every time you use their services!

America can be great again if you get rid of these useless bureaucracies that soak up social spending dollars so that the money never even goes where the politicians intended. Cut the spending and you'll be lowering the incentive for corporations to get in bed with the government and maybe people can start thinking about creating useful products and services instead of the best way to get a piece of the tax pie. Continuing on the path that Obama and McCain both represent is only leading you towards fascism, maybe when the corporations collect your taxes directly you'll realize this.

(from ImaNutter
Point Number Two: Our "Capitalist," "Free Market" wielding leaders just bailed out ALL of Wall Street. Before that, they were bailing out companies anyway. In Capitalism, those companies fall and they fall HARD. Where's the invisible hand? It doesn't matter because we have the entirely visible hand of the government telling us it's necessary that we do this to save our economy and overall livelihood. Okay, if that's true and for the sake of argument let's say that it is, that we need the government to step in and oversee business and their regulations, enforce stricter business practices, is that Capitalism? The next argument might be "We the people didn't want that, the government did it!" HELLO, DOESN'T MATTER, NOT CAPITALISM!

Bingo! Right on the Money! now we know that it isn't Capitalism that is picking apart our economy, it's the government's involvement. If the government would allow Capitalism to work, then it would work. Those companies Should have been allowed to fall hard. The free market will take care of itself, no need to interfere. It's the socialist ideals that are already being put into place that are pulling our economy apart. Obama preaches change. People who support Obama feel he is right because we're in a bad spot right now. Wrong, it's the changes that have already been made that put us here. The slow and gradual ideals that have come over us Fat, Lazy, ungrateful Americans have led us to state of irresponsibility. Ask any young person what they want to do for a living. It typically consists of lots of pay and little effort. We expect things to be "fair" we expect Daddy Big(No) bucks to bail us out and spread the wealth so things are "fair". Some people talk about Greed being the Bane of the economy, well you're close. Greed is what led these companies to make these terrible business decisions. Now the government is "distributing the wealth" of the taxpayers (to idiotic CEO's) in the name of "saving our economy" via bailout plan. The government just needs to stay out of the way and let the We the People be in control like this country was designed to.

Final remarks: Law if natural selection. Theory of evolution. Survival of the fittest. Those that evolve, survive. Nature=Capitalism in it's truest form.

SOCIALISM IS NOT BAD. EVERYTHING YOUR PARENTS TOLD YOU IS NOT TRUE. EVERYTHING YOUR TEACHERS TOLD YOU IS NOT TRUE. GET OFF THE COMPUTER, PUT DOWN YOUR IPOD, PUT DOWN YOUR IPHONE, PUT DOWN YOUR XBOX, READ A BOOK, CRITICALLY THINK, RATIONALIZE, ASK QUESTIONS, FIND THE ANSWER YOURSELF, LEARN, EVOLVE YOUR LINE OF THOUGHT.

But wait, I thought that's what Capitalism is all about. Take it upon yourself and work hard instead of other people feeding you answers.

Originally posted by Pjotr
In Holland we seem to be the most productive per head per year, but we work less hours, so we are more effective. You would call outr country socialist (left from Obama), but we still don't, so it is a matter of perspective. The American dream is still an option in Europe. Strange HUH.
So we work harder in a smaller amount of time and are RICHER per head. Hmmm...so also when you pay taxes there is a reason to work (I know, I work hard, earn a lot and am sill very happy, and proud to be contributing to one of the healthiest econimies of this world)

While that may be true, I'd just like to note that everyone in Europe is forced to take long holidays; that is what produces the lower level of working hours. And so when you compare what remains of work hours with those of countries such as the U.S. and Japan, you come to a substantially biased figure of productive output. However, the holidays might help efficiency in the long run. Holland and other closely related European countries may produce at much higher levels of the intellectual output than those of the aforementioned workaholic countries. So the difference between the two systems is either too subtle or untranslatable to give a fair perspective of differences in both societies in terms of levels of industrial and other producible outputs.

------------------------

Look, the bottom line is that any political body truly does not take into account the well being of its citizenry. It will, however, make exceptions for its constituency, but then only the minimum in order to remain in power. The political body is only interested in preserving and strengthening in its own power base. This has been true for all of human social history. So the fact that a voter in this upcoming election would be torn between either party, on the basis of some feigned sense of Socialism and how it would apply to that individual directly, is being completely mislead. I'm not entirely sure how each party differs in their social policies, but I know the Republicans at this point in time simply aren't capable of providing any sort of social welfare to its national constituents. They just aren't in the position. The party itself isn't unified over the issue. Actually, if the Republicans do manage to make it into office this term, we can expect to see some violent infighting among the party, which could manifest in the 2012 election. The event might conjure images of Teddy Roosevelt and Taft, with the formation of a progressive Republican party, ultimately culminating in Republican defeat that election year. Actually that happened in 1912. Spooky connection anyone? The formation of a progressive Republic base seems to be occurring at this moment.

What hurts the most is that an individual will vote for some party based on ideological principles. This is absurd. It's like voting in a team captain for a soccer team; you get this figure head that represents your core values, but pragmatically accomplishes nothing except the mental cohesion of all the team members. Essentially the captain is an extension of the collective mind of the team, yet no one individual is willing to step out and put in the work in most cases... It's sad that a voter would make a decision like that.

To be honest, all you should be worrying about is exactly what either party will do for you personally. It shouldn't be a battle between parties, a battle over ideas with little or no substance. This is exactly what happened prior to the first American civil war. Now I'm not saying something like that would happen again, our peace keeping and diplomatic skills are infinitely better than in the past, however that raw conflict would manifest itself in other ways, such as crime, murder, political interest groups and corruption, (all of which is arguably happening now), etc.

People that vote on ideological principle alone are either rich and bored, or poor and complacent. They need to something to fill themselves, to grasp on to, which could potentially fill the void where the individuality of a person usually resides.

[edit on 1-11-2008 by cognoscente]

They all seem to think everyone can make it if they just work harder and then everyone can get rich and enjoy the great life, and that my friends is a lie.

this is so true. i mean, have people just seriously lost their freaking minds. we all cant be donald trumps, bill gates, etc.... there are going to have to be average joes, who sell you your cellphones, clean your poop, sweep your streets, teach your kids, fry your chicken, etc..., and these people are considered underachievers if they go the cutthroat route and start doing any and everything to be rich.

the worst part, is im sure alot of the people here posting about its stealing from the hard workers, are middle class themselves. if you cannot comprehend why someone making 3 million a year in salary, should not contribute A LITTLE extra for the betterment of the bigger picture, than you are retarded. thats what you are, you are a retarded person, and you need help.

not everyone is going to go to college, not everyone is going to become a ceo of a big company, not everyone is gonna become an overpaid superintendent, not everyone is gonna become a world class actor, or producer, etc... the list goes on.

even if every freaking kid in america went to college and got at least a bachelors degree, there would still not be tens of millions of high paying jobs available, and you would still have what you have now, which is over qualified people, working jobs at the same level as someone who only graduated from high school, and just got an opportunity to get in the companies door.

i mean, what do some of these ceo's need with 5 million dollar a year salaries, with stock options and stuff. i mean, you could give the average american a million dollars, and if they dont start living wildly beyond their means, they could live off of that for the rest of their life, and some. hell, the mere interest on it from your bank every month could pay rent at least.

so when do we say enough is enough, i know you worked hard from the day you were a poor child on a farm, to create your empire, but you sir need to spread the wealth, you have made your millions, do you need to make trillions before your happy, or better yet, just take over the universe.

i mean,its not like we're talking about taking turning millionaires, or hundred thousand'naires into people making the same salary as a mcdonalds worker. the middle man has to exist,or the rich cannot get richer. joe the plumber has to exist, and if joe is making 500 grand a year, and he aint eating scraps, then maybe joe should look out for the bigger picture, and pay a little extra, so that guy who fixes your cell phone, trying to take care of his child, and live in comfort, isnt going to have to start selling drugs to keep up with the cost of living, or just with lifes randomness.

i mean, you can close wiki, close the books, and common sense should allow you to deduce why it can be good to implement a PROPER plan to redistribute the wealth for the greater good, but then again, its not like our history has shown that human beings are nothing more then selfish meat sacks, running around pretending to be gods.

politics is just like religion and spirituality, you need a proper mixture to come up with something good,but you also have to be working with people WHO ARE NOT FUNCTIONING RETARDS. hell, democracy is almost idealistic garbage,but yet we believe in it so wholeheartedly.

de·moc·ra·cy /dɪˈmɒkrəsi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-mok-ruh-see] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural -cies.
1.government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
2.a state having such a form of government: The United States and Canada are democracies.
3.a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
4.political or social equality; democratic spirit.
5.the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

this is ideal, but as they say, as long as people are people, this is pretty much unattainable in its purest form, and we are doing nothing more than chasing democracy. but yet we stand by it as if its god sent. do you really think democracy in its purest definition is being exercised in the u.s.a right now. pffft. just a little rant. there is a reason we have all these different systems created, and they should start to try to work with one another, but i think the planet we live on, the government, corporations, etc.., are more about enslavement, and maintaining a certain position of power of the people, no matter what country your in, rather than seeking for some type of heaven on earth.

until people want to drop that no pain no gain attitude in life. you will always be dealing with the problems we face now, and have always faced. this is just history repeating itself. get over yourselves, and your programmed views of the world. we all bleed and love, just like the next man or woman. ugh, just the thought of how stupid people can be makes me barf.

the universe has more than enough to take care of even billions of people. the illusion that we are running out,is always maintained, as to give the simple minded something to chase after.

anyways, moving on. ill go back and read more of the thread later