The moronic tyranny of the "there´s no proof" crowd

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by TSOM87

 

Some say: "First proof then I believe"

Others say: "First I believe, then I get proof"

We say: Keep an open mind. Go for proof but dont be inhibited if you cant see the proof yet.

Yeah i accept that and i accept others views and beliefs . But theres a big difference between Believeing and Truth. IMHO just because one believes in UFOs, Aliens, Ghosts doesn't mean it real! Seeing the proof thats how imho you know it's real! I don't come here to believe i come here for the truth, just like when i watch the sky!

TSOM87,

Then why are you looking for tangible "proof" on the internet?

All you will ever find is pictures and words on a screen.

The limitations of internet research (that should be obvious) often lead to 'skeptics' demanding impossible proofs - proofs that cannot be properly conveyed through the computer monitor, but nothing tangible.

*Most 'skeptics' conveniently ignore these obvious limitations, and will continue to demand 'proof's that could not possibly be conveyed via the internet and PC screen. This is incredibly frustrating.


[edit on 1-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

Originally posted by TruthTellist
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

"one potential problem is that there's no 'who's ignoring you' list in the ATS member centre and there's no 'on thread' notification in the same way that friends and foes appear"

I'm currently lobbying for the development of just such a list.

Until then, I will continue to notify the members that have been placed on my list (as you know first-hand).... due the the constraints of the current list you have been rotated off and replaced with the alternate account of someone currently on my ignore list under another name; yet another vehement communist

[edit on 1-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

Wow, ignore rotation? Are you the Jethro Tull of forum member management?

I'd much prefer something you could see on thread though than an 'ignored by' list. I don't really go through my member centre thing that much. Also, no matter how much I disagree with someone, I won't put them on ignore. I might strongly disagree with someone on one topic, but on another thread I'll happily star their comments on something else entirely. I tend not to carry over grudges from one topic to another and I certainly wouldn't dismiss a poster outright because of what they've said on another thread.

Lastly, your post reads as if I am a communist: "yet another vehement communist". I'm understanding that as the person with multiple accounts is one and I'm another? For the record comrade, I'm not a communist.

There's something that I really find funny about all of this....
Some people still believe that the US gov't is there for their own safety...
I didn't want to break your bubbles but I have to do so..

Some skeptics NEVER try to find the proofs by themself.. HEY back in the WWII, the Bush's family WERE IN FACT making their fortunes WITH the holocaust..
Visit this link : [url=http://www.politicalgroove.com/general-political-discussion/10263-proof-bush-dulles-nazi-connection.html]

Bush's grandfather made his money FROM the ennemy!!!
And this was back in the 1940's .. in the time that the people still trusted their governement! If back in these years our good ''Americans'' were IN FACT helping the ennemy for money... Why won't they keep doing it? ...
THEY KNEW that they were HELPING the Third Reich by doing this , They KNEW that they were traitors for their OWN crountry.. and look who you elected, Bush's Father and now Georges W Bush?

So skeptics.. tell me something PLEASE I need to understand this... WHY and WHY would your government STOP making money from the WARS?
Some folks still believe that their governments would never start a war because of the country's financial problems BUT why not? If this makes a HUGE block of gold in their pocket... they'll do it, they've done it before and they'll keep doing it because there are people like the skeptics who WON'T believe anything that would affects their own believe...!! I think that this is selfish... but it's an opinion. They DID in fact made money from sending their OWN soldiers to death in the WWII so what? What do you need now? A video of Bush's family playin' with Hitler's moustache? Even then they'd think that it's a fake.

See.. there is a proof.. if you don't believe it, it's been provent a trillion times and these are facts... SEE !!! When you got the proofs in your face you skeptcs just dismiss it so I don't see the point to show you proofs.

Our gov'ts a re there to make money, it's been proven , there's not much we can do BUT accept it, but again, who would? It's crazy to believe that our governors aren't there for us, isn't it?

Thank you skyfloating. Battling counter-productive, terminally-skeptic types has been a chore recently.

Those people whose sole interest seems to be 'skepticism' - I often wonder why they spend their time on ATS of all places. That's not to say that ideas and conspiracies should be nurtured without a healthy dose of questioning, but rather than say "there's no proof, this is ridiculous", a skeptic would be far more productive saying "I can't see any proof but I'm going to look into it", or "this thread seems ridiculous to me so I'm going to ignore it". Instead, we've got threads plagued constantly by people who think it's their right to make everyone else's mind up for them.

Furthermore, and this applies to the wider world beyond ATS, it's always dangerous to be too sure that something is 'ridiculous' and 'untrue'. How idiotic those doubters must have felt when it was finally confirmed that Francis Crick's theory of DNA structure was proven scientifically sound. The difference is, mother nature wasn't attempting to keep secret the structure of DNA whereas by their very nature, conspiracy theorists go to every length to do precisely that - hide the trail of breadcrumbs.

It's called 'conditioning' and if there's one thing the world does well, it is to condition the masses to form the same rigid perspective on existence, authority, science and spirituality. I'd rather open my mind a little too far than close it to all possibility. In my opinion, there's no shame in being debunked.

[edit on 1/11/2008 by Cythraul]

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by ashamedamerican

Personally I think MODS should ban these trolls from the forum.
Unfortunately this is not always the case.

Sometimes I´d love to...but we neednt go as far as to force agreement. Disagreement is the hallmark of free and open discussion.

However...there´s indeed a difference between disagreeing and being a repetitive and pointless troll.

I agree with that 100%...
I don't come here and debate things to have people blow smoke up my a** lol
I actually enjoy it when someone counters my arguement, with a well thought out (however contradictory) arguement of their own.

It just disgusts me when people OBVIOUSLY dont even read a post, and demand that you provide evidence.

I think one thing mods should look for is just that... If someone has obviously gone through alot of time and effort to post evidence, references, sources, etc. and a troll is demanding proof, when it is clearly layed out before them, and they chose to ignore it, that troll should be banned. (at a minimum a posting ban)

OP thank you for starting this thread, this is one of the most important threads in this entire forum in my opinion.
Starred and flagged! keep up the good work, you're a role model for other mods!

[edit on 1-11-2008 by ashamedamerican]

Originally posted by TruthTellist
TSOM87,

Then why are you looking for tangible "proof" on the internet?

All you will ever find is pictures and words on a screen.

The limitations of internet research (that should be obvious) often lead to 'skeptics' demanding impossible proofs - proofs that cannot be properly conveyed through the computer monitor, but nothing tangible.

*Most 'skeptics' conveniently ignore these obvious limitations, and will continue to demand 'proof's that could not possibly be conveyed via the internet and PC screen. This is incredibly frustrating.


[edit on 1-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

If someone came on here and said they have a UFO or Alien locked up somewhere, that can lead me to Proof! I can go and see it! ect.

If someone said they are viewing a UFO from there telescope, that can lead me to Proof.

If you relly want to believe you have to go out and the find the Proof, you have to try every option!

At the end of the day we don't know if there is life out there, we just have to keep looking for the Evidence to know that its real!

All i want is Proof, thats all!

reply to post by TSOM87


Why all the yelling?

After all, this thread is about you;

I thank you for acting as an example, and a true representative of the group who were referenced in the OP by Skyfloating.

...Unless you're having us on? are you just winding us all up?



[edit on 1-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

Yelling..me...nooooooooooo! Love and peace man!

All i want is Proof, is there something wrong with that? I accept if people don't want Proof and just want to believe, hey if that makes people happy thats great!

But i want my Proof not my MTV!

Can you prove what you say? *ducks thrown bricks*

One of the problems isn't the LACK of proof, it's the false proof being shoved up our noses with the claim of being proof.

Example: Let's say I see a UFO. or I SAY I see a UFO. On the one hand, I can give measurements as accurate as I can get them, as detailed description of the object as I can, mebbe even a sketch, or if I am really just that good, an artist's rendering in photoshop, including a photo taken of the same spot for reference. That would be evidence. Proof, on the other hand- would be looking into various UFO sites that are around my area, and see if anyone else saw the thing. Without proof, it's just evidence, makes you go 'hmmm', and that's about it.

Now, let's take the same story- but instead of the descriptions, sketches, photoshopped recreation, I decide to make a beautiful FAKE. And say "Lookie what i just filmed! OOO!" That's is what we are faced with. People who make crap up, pass it off as proof, and then jade the people who really would like that little piece of concrete.

I am the same way with a couple things- finding a woman who actually likes me and wont scorch me is one. I have been hurt so many times, she has got to PROVE her love. I now need proof, because of all the fakes, lies and other crap i have had forced down my throat and forced to digest. And lemme tell you- when the truth comes out, and you find you just digested crap, it tastes real bitter coming back up.

Great thread. Here's an excerpt from my latest blog entry:

The real issue, as I'm convinced history will prove, isn't that there's no proof (of the nonhuman presence), it's in too many people's unwillingness to begin the proof PROCESS. (That's not saying it's possible to unravel every mystery there is, but we could have a whopping heck of a lot more knowledge than we have now if enough people REALLY wanted it). The real issue is too many people's great comfort level with secrecy-BASED government(s). So-called "skeptics" (pseudoskeptics) are first, foremost and primarily brainwashed into believing psychopathic insanity like the very existence of the National "Security" STATE is normal.

lightworth.blogspot.com...

reply to post by Skyfloating


I would say healthy skepticism is a neccessary component for a theorey to evolve. Dismissing a theorey on the premise that there is no evidence is as equally faulted as presenting a theorey without sound evidence.

A theorey progresses when evidence is presented and then objectively debated without emotional attachment to the outcome ...whether the theorey advances or crumbles.

I get frustrated when theorists present a theorey and IGNORE any evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by wylekat
Can you prove what you say? *ducks thrown bricks*

One of the problems isn't the LACK of proof, it's the false proof being shoved up our noses with the claim of being proof.

Example: Let's say I see a UFO. or I SAY I see a UFO. On the one hand, I can give measurements as accurate as I can get them, as detailed description of the object as I can, mebbe even a sketch, or if I am really just that good, an artist's rendering in photoshop, including a photo taken of the same spot for reference. That would be evidence. Proof, on the other hand- would be looking into various UFO sites that are around my area, and see if anyone else saw the thing. Without proof, it's just evidence, makes you go 'hmmm', and that's about it.

Now, let's take the same story- but instead of the descriptions, sketches, photoshopped recreation, I decide to make a beautiful FAKE. And say "Lookie what i just filmed! OOO!" That's is what we are faced with. People who make crap up, pass it off as proof, and then jade the people who really would like that little piece of concrete.

I am the same way with a couple things- finding a woman who actually likes me and wont scorch me is one. I have been hurt so many times, she has got to PROVE her love. I now need proof, because of all the fakes, lies and other crap i have had forced down my throat and forced to digest. And lemme tell you- when the truth comes out, and you find you just digested crap, it tastes real bitter coming back up.

It all comes down to what you would take as Proof! Drawing a picture aint Proof to me, a video of a dot in the night sky aint Proof to me!

I could draw somebody a sterotype picture of God and say look this is what i saw lastnight. Some mite take it as Proof and some mite not take it as Proof.

If you aint got Proof then how are you to know that Life out in the Universe is a Reality?

reply to post by Skyfloating


So, you just called anyone who want proof of things morons?

SO we dont' need evidenceot prove things anymore
GOod, I' sure that will makes cops job's much easier.

reply to post by Skyfloating


One could easily title this thread "The moronic tyranny of stubborn conspiracy theorists." During discussions, it is expected that the theorist would have more than "A friend of a friend of my cousin told me" as some sort of basis for a conspiracy. Website reliability is mixed and the web is full of disinformation from conspiracies large and small. At times, the theories make no sense whatsoever as to cause and effect, goal or purpose, and technical plausibility. The theorist blithely states that it is such a deep conspiracy that no one knows the real reasons.
With this philosophy, everything is a conspiracy of some sort; even schizophrenics can claim a following for their plans to take over the earth.
Before you dismiss those who are looking for reason and evidence in a theory, consider that they provide a valuable service that allows the other readers on ATS to have the advantage of seeing counter arguments based on knowledge that they might not have or rationales that they might not have considered.
I have no proof of the preceeding statements but then this isn't a part of a conspiracy theory....unless posters of such unsupported theories are spreading disinformation to cover up the real conspiracy.

Originally posted by Oceanborn
I was keep reading till page 2 and then i stopped.There are two people saying that they're just here for the fun of it (allthough i believe that there are more generally in ATS) and others being like "relax,it's a conspiracy forum" and a very simple question popped in my head.

Is ATS just a site to share stories about imaginery things,like a novel forum,to just read each other's fiction stories and have fun?

This isn't a sarcastic question nor a trick question.It's a straight and honest question so if someone's willing to answer to it likewise i'd really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance.

I think you may be referring to my post. There are certain subjects I find entertaining, certain subjects I find fascinating to ponder, certain subjects I find ridiculous, certain subjects I take very seriously. But this is a forum that has many things to offer. Not just conspiracy theories anymore. The Psychology and Metaphysics section is not always about a conspiracy, but an idea or concept. History is oftentimes subjective and theories are made from what little we find or deduce from "evidence". UFO's are controversial yet SO many believe what they see or know. Yes I find ATS entertaining. Yes I enjoy the volley of creative what if thinking. Yes, I enjoy the "stories" people share regarding their experiences and ideas on how the world works. Not all the stories are imaginary. Some are fiction, some are hoaxes, but many are their true beliefs and they want feedback from others. No I don't come here strictly for the fun. But I do have a lot of fun here.
My problem is with the rudeness and meanness of people who try to undermine others ability to express those ideas. People who stalk people to try to discredit their ideas. Those are the bullies I am referring to.

edited to add, I am also highly skeptical of the things I read here, but I don't try to hurt a person, make fun of them, call them idiots or crazy, even if I am thinking it. It's called respect for diversity of thinking.

[edit on 1-11-2008 by seagrass]

reply to post by TSOM87


I didn't say it was PROOF. I said it was EVIDENCE. PROOF would be more than one person (other people who I didn't know at all) saying the same things and having the same pics.

Please reread where I said that, eh?

Like i said before theres nothing wrong with believing in life out in the universe without Proof. Just like theres nothing wrong with wanting proof to believe in life out there in the Universe!

I want Proof, i want Evidence of life out in the Universe! How am i to know that life out in the Universe is a Reality without proof or Evidence?

I want the truth and am searching for it!

There is proof, people who don't want to see it are making it worse and have been since we we're kids, the ones who know and hide it are worse, I would stamp on their faces should they lay to close.

The reason I say that is because the stigma in this place, your supposed to do this that, not do that or say that, mind your manners, don't talk back you'll just get in trouble (pigs) and why? so they can do what your not meant to without majoity of sheeple knowing. If you've played final fantasy 7 and understood the story and why it applies to whats happening now, you'll realise the POWER COMPANIES and the ROYALS run the BUSSINESS GOVERNMENT and the SHEEPEL completely and utterly out of the arm of laws reach.

Also its too late to react, we would have hade a revolution and killed them all by now if we we're going to, but we didn't, and they are still in power over us using pigs, brainwashees whatever you wanna call cops, face it we have lost, so MI6 for the final #ing time, shoot me. nope didn't think so didn't happen before either.

stand the # up for yourself NOW

When people say, "There's no proof," they're simple referring to the fact that there's no widely accepted proof. No smoking gun. And there's not.

People want to believe in aliens.. even those who don't think they're come here. It's FUN to consider scenarios involving aliens, alright?