The Great Conspiracy-what if Jesus was never born?

reply to post by OldThinker


Before you waxing eloquent about speculating "what could have been" - take a look at one little corner of the world called India and try to know more before you speak.

Taxila, Ujjaini and the like were universities that were flourishing at least 5000 years ago. The Islamic revolution took care of that - particularly Taxila which is in today's Pakistan.

Watch the BBC documentary on "The Lost Temple of India" - it is on youtube in six parts - it will tell you that India introduced the world to the concept of zero.

As to freedom, administration and democratic concepts, India has always had fiefdoms and kingdoms that did well economically, academically and culturally till the Islamic emperors and then the British raped India of its wealth and killed the native culture.

Look around you - if you go to an American university, you will find that many prominent professors in Computer Science, Mathematics and other Engineering fields are Indian. Not only is academics stressed on, it has been equally available to male and female children for centuries, a concept new and novel in the west.

Columbus wanted to find a route to India, why? Because it was the land of honey and milk, where trade was global and merchandise was varied. Please note that the British colonized India AFTER Columbus discovered the New World and stayed there for a good 200 years. Also, many people are unaware, that British India was actually what is today India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma (Myanmar) and some territories of Bhutan and Kandahar.

Vedic texts are complete references to life as one lives it. Do some research before you say that without so-and-so, we would be doomed.

A billion people can't be wrong.

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Look around you - if you go to an American university, you will find that many prominent professors in Computer Science, Mathematics and other Engineering fields are Indian. Not only is academics stressed on, it has been equally available to male and female children for centuries, a concept new and novel in the west.

Thank you for taking the time to reply...

Don't want to make this a sociological discussion...one question though...

If things are so great there, why do the come to AMERICA to study, teach, etc...

To me it's the judeo/christian influence on the 'opportunities' created in America...

Indians are dear people; and yes smart...thus the reason they come.

OT

Nice post though!

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

Women in India are thought to be a “mistake” because they can risk a families’ survival, so are often mistreated and forgotten about.

Just spend 1 minute online and found…

Let’s see how women fair…??


www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us...

www.lewrockwell.com...

es.houstonisd.org...'s%20rights%20around%20the%20world/Women%20in%20India.html

= = = = =

Note: This is primarily on faith not culture!

John 1:1 says He made all things. The simple answer to your question is that if Jesus didn't exist, the world and your free agency to ask the question wouldn't exist. Thank you, Jesus.

Another area that I believe Christianity has contributed to..is

I notice that you're attributing to Christianity any and all works of people who are Christians. Is this really fair? For instance, why do you assume Michael Faraday would have been uninterested in physics if he hadn't been a Christian? Isn't this sort of like claiming that Islam is responsible for the creation of Algebra because Muhammad al-Khwārizmī was a Muslim?

In any case, wasn't the original question how the world would be different without Jesus? Why so much discussion of "Christianity," specifically modern Protestantism, which is only a couple hundreds years old?

Originally posted by LordBucket

Another area that I believe Christianity has contributed to..is

I notice that you're attributing to Christianity any and all works of people who are Christians. Is this really fair?

Thanks for the question. Is this an assumption on your part? If your point is implying that those who don’t follow Christ can contribute to society? Of course!

For instance, why do you assume Michael Faraday would have been uninterested in physics if he hadn't been a Christian? Isn't this sort of like claiming that Islam is responsible for the creation of Algebra because Muhammad al-Khwārizmī was a Muslim?

Another assumption? I never said this…I am merely showing what believers have done in their lives that advanced society…not enough thread room for the other on the OP…might good a good idea for another thread?

In any case, wasn't the original question how the world would be different without Jesus? Why so much discussion of "Christianity," specifically modern Protestantism, which is only a couple hundreds years old?

Well let’s follow the math theme, shall we?

How about the ‘Transitive axiom’ ??? ”If a = b and b = c, then a = c.”

A=God/Jesus requests followers to be a positive force for good…
B=Believers listen…
C=Good happens! 

It’s a cause and effect thing…

Any questions?

PS: Sorry for the cut and paste butchering

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by Good Wolf

And BTW I'm a little offended that you claim that America was formed christian. America was the most secular nation in the world. State was separate from Church as it always should be. The founding fathers knew that to have freedom of religion, there needed to be freedom from religion.

GW, Welcome to the thread...

Why are you questioning the Christian heritage of American?

You are not ignoring the evidence ru?

= = = =

Yes…

The EVIDENCE is overwhelming!!!!!!!!!!!

*snip* blah blah blah...

Read the constitution and the bill of rights? Declaration of Independence?
All men (and women) are created equal. All men (and women) have freedom of religion (among lots of other liberties). America has a "Godless Constitution".

America was not "one nation under God"

the original Pledge of Allegiance—meant as an expression of patriotism, not religious faith—also made no mention of God. The pledge was written in 1892 by the socialist Francis Bellamy, a cousin of the famous radical writer Edward Bellamy. He devised it for the popular magazine Youth's Companion on the occasion of the nation's first celebration of Columbus Day. Its wording omitted reference not only to God but also, interestingly, to the United States:

"I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

The key words for Bellamy were "indivisible," which recalled the Civil War and the triumph of federal union over states' rights, and "liberty and justice for all," which was supposed to strike a balance between equality and individual freedom. By the 1920s, reciting the pledge had become a ritual in many public schools.

Blah blah blah...

In 1955, with Ike's support, Congress added the words "In God We Trust" on all paper money. In 1956 it made the same four words the nation's official motto, replacing "E Pluribus Unum." Legislators introduced Constitutional amendments to state that Americans obeyed "the authority and law of Jesus Christ."

Why we're not one nation "under God."

I don't care that there were Christians in America when it was formed. That doesn't matter. There were Native Americans too, with there own religion. That wasn't respected, they weren't respected.

The founding fathers may have been christian but the forged a secular nation. The law of the land and the most important documents in America solidified America's secularism.

America was a secular-forged nation.

[edit on 11/1/2008 by Good Wolf]

GW, Good points there!

I think this particular piece of the debate isn't either/or...but degree. Because 52 of the 55 authors were God-fearing and wise...they put a structure, check and balance system to prevent abuse...be it religious and/or a secular grab for power or a reach for kingship...

I think it is plausible they used the biblical truth of the sin nature as a catalyst to do this...at least some...

Again thanks for the thoughts...

OT

the 'blah, blah' was not needed...

Originally posted by OldThinker
the 'blah, blah' was not needed...

It's just my way of signifying non-relevant info has been taken out. No offence intended.


In my mind it doesn't matter that many of the founding fathers were christian, I've read that they were deists, the least devout form of theism, so it seems they didn't want to have God replete through the founding documents. These men had a great respect for other peoples choice to practice the religion of their choosing. The main thing is that you have to have church and state separate so those of other religions aren't persecuted or treated/thought of as less than anyone else. The phrase "Land of the Free" was the absolute sontext of America's genesis. Any land of unmitigated freedom does need to be secular.

sorry im late been somewhat distracted the past few days and decided to stick to the more faster moving threads and OT's request to come join in slipt my mind(appologise to OT and Goodwolf)

ive only skimmed the first 5 pages but it doesnt appear anyones taken the historical angle so thats my play ^_^

if jesus hadnt existed what would the world be like ......... exactly the same as it is

the early church did its nice trick of going around book burning(see not everything changes) and destroying oppositional christian beleif systems

but it also did 1 other very very important thing it wrote and it wrote plenty, they wrote whole books about how the other beleiefs systems were wrong(presumably before burning/destorying them) adn how thier very varyied beliefs were right

we only know of marcian and his twin god christianity becasue there are so many books telling us how each of his principles are wrong as all his work was burned and he was chased off for bieng a heretic

from this and the few surviving gnostic gospels not all christianity beleived in jesus or that he was even physical

paul him self makes no mention of an earthly running around jesus and doesnt quote a single thing he said(suprising as most of christianity is based on his writting and he supposedly hung out with the disciples, youd expect at least one of them to tell him stuff jesus said) but mentions only the spirtual jesus bringing salvation

Valentinus tells us of many jesus's coming in several forms from the begining and the last of the jesus's being the physical one in matthew/mark etc

Basilides has 1 jesus but appearing in many forms to his disciples both as purely spirit and flesh and a few animal forms and talking plants

the Carpocratians practiced homosexual initiation rites, which they claimed Jesus had originated.

Ophite Christians with their Christ, an exclusively spiritual force

The Mandaeans made use of astrology to divine God's will and believed that the salvation of souls was to be achieved through righteousness and gnosis, not a sacrificial saviour god.

Marcion had a fully grown adult jesus decend from heaven no immaculate conception for him

Ebionites and the Nazarenes had jesus as just a man that brought the word of god, he was essentially a prophet like muhammed and jesus is to islam

Theophilus wrote about christianity but his version didnt even have a jesus

the bishop of antioch in his book 'meaning of the name christianity' makes no mention of jesus, in his mind anointment with holy oil was the way to salavation

Clement of Alexandria(Titus Flavius Clemens ) seems to think jesus was not only king of the jews but rebuilt the temple of david and sat on a shiney gold throne and gave out his commands as king of the holy land and managed all this in only 7 weeks

and we know there are various versions of the crucifiction some say jesus was all man so felt pain others said he was a god in human form so felt no pain just hung around till he got bored(one of these is attributed to a disciple who was there and saw it)

it took almost 300 years of this debate raging before we ended up with the jesus 1/2 man 1/2 god we have today

what we have today is a mix of these many varrying opinions and beliefs amalgamated to become the christianity we know and love (this is a phrase not me declaring my love for jesus so dont get your hopes up on that one ^_^)

what we have today owes nothing to a real sandal wearing jesus running around 2000 years ago

so if he had never existed it wouldnt have mattered one bit, the religeon is after all 70% paul and his ramblings and later reinterpretations and edittings nothing to do with any message jesus brought, as paul never references jesus and some of what he taught goes against what jesus is said to have taught (which chunks of it were buddist scripture anyway)

you dont need a real living breathing jesus for christinaity to exist to have done the things it did and become what we know it is today

you need only the belief he did exist and that has only been needed AFTER the first 400-500 years of christinity



[edit on 1/11/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by OldThinker

Another area that I believe Christianity has contributed to..is SCIENCE...

The following is a list for you all to consider....folks who loved Jesus and had a great impact on society...

OT you seem to be using a fasle premise for much of this

the premise seems to be if the person was doing it it was becasue of christianity

like christinaity banning slave ownership in the states

slavery was banned by these people who were christians they didnt do it BECASUE they were christians

same with your science premise quoted

the people that helped advance science listed were christians

but didnt advance science becasue they were christians

they didnt get thier understanding of science from the bible or the words of jesus

the fact they were christians has as much relvance as having blue eyes over brown, black hair over blond

its part of who they were not a contributing factor of what they did

thomas edisson was one of the worlds most prolific inventors and i beleive a christian, unfortunatley he didnt invent that much just stole patents from the patent office he worked at put his name on it and resubmitted it

he didnt steal the patents becasue he was a christian any more then the things he actually did invent was becasue he was a christian

[edit on 1/11/08 by noobfun]

reply to post by noobfun


it's worse than you think. how many of those "christians" who did those wonderful things, were non-catholic christians? to get ahead as a christian, you had to butter your toast with butter bought from the papally-approved butter churn. or to put in the words of steve taylor "only drink milk from a christian (catholic) cow"



everyone else was cannon fodder.

however, this does not disprove jesus. that people are tribal, terratorial, prejudice and easily led by mob mentality, does not discount what jesus said or did. in fact, just the opposite.

reply to post by undo


Steve Taylor, huh? Doubt too many will know him...it's been a while...man this guy was halarious, back in the day...and always thought-provoking!

Thanks for the vid/aud.

reply to post by undo



i see no differacne between catholcism and the other 3600 variations of christianity

they all have thier own personal wierdness and foibels that make them them, and more then a few will tell you your only a True Christian™ and going to heaven if you beleive thier speciality of it

i still cant get my head around how over 3600 are spreading the 1 true word of god and jesus when they are spreading 3600 different variations

Originally posted by Good Wolf

Originally posted by OldThinker
the 'blah, blah' was not needed...

It's just my way of signifying non-relevant info has been taken out. No offence intended.


In my mind it doesn't matter that many of the founding fathers were christian, I've read that they were deists, the least devout form of theism, so it seems they didn't want to have God replete through the founding documents. These men had a great respect for other peoples choice to practice the religion of their choosing. The main thing is that you have to have church and state separate so those of other religions aren't persecuted or treated/thought of as less than anyone else. The phrase "Land of the Free" was the absolute sontext of America's genesis. Any land of unmitigated freedom does need to be secular.

No fundamentalist here GW....

No argument....I'd suspect there are some pretty devout deists too though.

OT thinks freedom comes from Christ...heard of David Barton?

Barton: There is a lot of proof. Not the least of which is a great 4th of July speech that was given in 1737 by one of the guys who fought in the revolution, who became a president, John Quincy Adams. His question was why is it in America that the Fourth of July and Christmas are the most celebrated holidays? His answer was that at Christmas we celebrate what Jesus Christ did for the world his birth, and on the 4th of July we celebrate what Jesus Christ did for America, since we founded it as a Christian nation. So this is a guy who fought in it, and all these years later he is saying, we did this as a Christian nation. The Declaration of Independence formed all of the principles of Christianity into our form of government. They said that on a regular basis, and it was they who said it was a Christian nation.

Edit:spelling..eekkk!

[edit on 1-11-2008 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by noobfun
reply to post by undo

 

i still cant get my head around how over 3600 are spreading the 1 true word of god and jesus when they are spreading 3600 different variations

lol...it does seem odd, you are right...

OT hopes the central message in my signature permeates...I wonder?

Originally posted by noobfun

Originally posted by OldThinker

OT you seem to be using a fasle premise for much of this

the premise seems to be if the person was doing it it was becasue of christianity

like christinaity banning slave ownership in the states

slavery was banned by these people who were christians they didnt do it BECASUE they were christians

Actually it was a 'shrimp'

that helped end it...

See.. www.christianitytoday.com...

Today one of his full portraits hangs in a pub. Another in the same town, Cambridge, hangs in a hotel. Another still, in his old college, St. John's. In each he peers at the world quizzically through small, bright eyes over a long, upturned nose. He was said to be "the wittiest man in England, and the most religious" (Madame de Stael), and one who possessed "the greatest natural eloquence of all the men I ever met" (William Pitt). When he spoke, another quipped, "The shrimp became a whale" (James Boswell). Historian G. M. Trevelyan called this "shrimp" the primary human agent for "one of the turning events in the history of the world."

reply to post by noobfun


precisely why there are many variations on how the universe works as well. what political position is the correct one to have, what teacher has the best teachings, what artist is best, and so on. if you think religion is the only place where people have differences of opinion that they are willing to ostracize you for and steal or refuse you various creature comforts or expressions of yourself as an individual then you apparently are suffering from tunnel vision. that's not unusual, mind you, as we all have limited forms of that particular foible. the difference is realizing it. now would be a good time to just be brutally honest with yourself and realize it's a human condition not a "religious" problem.

OT thinks freedom comes from Christ...heard of Bach?

Bach's cantatas proclaim the good news of God's mercy in Christ. They do not seek to manipulate or sell anything. They simply announce what God has done and does. By doing so, they extol God with "boundless freedom" that is paradoxically bound to form because of the Incarnation, to quote Jaroslav Pelikan. Bach's music lives out the church's presupposition that music is for the glory of God and the edification of one's neighbor.

You know they say...matt, mark, luke, john...and the 5th? Bach!

Wow, another follower of Jesus...making a difference for good???!!!!

Source: www.christianitytoday.com...

If JC was never born, there would undoubtably be another headcase that would just 'slide' into the peoples need for a divine influence in the form of a human.

Charlatans, quacks , hoaxers and the peddelers of snake oil will always prey on vunerable people who can't or are too scared to think for themselves. They always have and they always will.

Religion is brainwashing. That's it. That is all it is. The sooner you realise this FACT the sooner you will be able to live your life in a fullfilling way.