The Great Conspiracy-what if Jesus was never born?

reply to post by whoswatchinwho


OT is right as far as us being in a different place if Jesus never came about... whether you think its Jesus the Myth, or Jesus as an actual person.

Where would Europe have been without the Crusades?

Where would the world have been without the Inquisition?

Where would the world be had the church (pope) had not pressed its will in the drafting of the Magna Carta...

Things would be different... MUCH different.

As far as attacking OT on his beliefs, It is really not necessary. OT and I disagree on much, and always give each other headaches... But I find it pretty unecessary to attack the man based on his beliefs.

OT will concede if you catch him in a paradox... and he is not here declaring universal truths...

If you look at his posts carefully, you will see that he will always tell you they are HIS truths, and is receptive to discovering more...

Patronise? You should follow thru with my request...and read my prior posts...OT doesn't do that...too humble...been thru too much, ok?

Yes...I agree my question is tough...but I believe ANSWER-ABLE...

'Sectioned?' they are usually delusional too, right? A'freak' maybe?

BIBLE? Yeah OT's got maultiple posts on my belief and it's reliability...

OT's glad you are blessed with morale folks in your life...

NOW...PLEASE ...LISTEN....OT will never give you 'biased' websites to follow (without acknowledging that fact...please go back and look....check with my supporters...heck...check with my foes....need their names....U2U me and I'll share)

The 'sermon' for lack of a better word...is not some biased, right wing fundamentalist....why would I waste your time? OT knows better!!!

This guy is funny...relevant...challenging....and witty...and in OT's opinion RIGHT!

I will review EVERY SOURCE you give me...without prejudice...will you mine?

Serious man...if I came across as patronizing I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE....OT is not beyond this, ok?

I am not on ATS for fun...I did acknowledge my first response to you was a bit heavy right?

Thoughts?

OT

[edit on 20-11-2008 by OldThinker]

LOL he's a good guy OT, I've ran across him before...

He's just not engaged you before I imagine lol

deep breath OT.... 1.....2......3....

now let it out... ahhhhhhhh

I did not attack anywhere in my post, I answered the question by saying that I believe it can not be answered, when saying i believe we would still be where we are, I say that because the human race would have came up with another moral leader. I posed a hypothetical question back, why is this an attack, look through all my posts here i've never attacked anyone for their beliefs. the reply i got i did feel was patronising in its tone and the intimation that i called OT an idiot and a freak, I have read through the thread which is why i felt i could pose the question here. but if it is not welcome then that is ok,

reply to post by nj2day


OK...

Thanks...

Been a long day...

WOOOSAAA!!!!!!!!

I feel better now....



OT

reply to post by whoswatchinwho


What was the question?

I'll try again since I missed it...

OT

reply to post by whoswatchinwho


Ah, I think I see what happened here

You took OT's reply as an attack on you lol...

Nevermind that... you'll get used to him... He's kind of like that... but he means no harm (usually).

then I took your line about him patranizing you and set a negative intonation to your entire response...

I get it now. no harm no foul, sometimes its hard to gauge inflection on forums and email...

Just a heads up though, OT is the only guy I've ran across that has made it to my "Respected Foe's" list lol

He'll play hard ball as long as the debate doesn't degenerate into an all out verbal brawl.

reply to post by nj2day


nj2day says..." I'm no MILS LANE...but I did play him on TV...and I stayed at a HOLIDAY INN last night...!"

Hope you get that and have seen the commercials?

Yeah...I'll take a stab at the question...

Thank you nj2day!

Ok nj2day thanks for what you said, OT the basis of the question was if you took God as an omnipotent being out the picture would you still follow Jesus teachings?

Weve not got off to a great start due to the timing of the posts i think .

In relation to what nj2ay said about you, that is why I,ve posted on your thread. In the little I've read from you, you don't seem to be the "I'm right so every one of you must be wrong" type of person.

I hope we can carry on maybe you can teach me a thing or two, and maybe you can learn a bit about me.

reply to post by whoswatchinwho


Yeah...I am so open to learning...

I was just talking to my best friend in MD, USA tonight...he's a real BAD-ASS...a Pedafile (sp?) Detective....known him for over 29 years....he's teaching mid-week Bible Study to a dozen or so 6th graders...and he was so worried about dealng with the 'fundi's'...do you understand that term?

Christian Fundamentalists!....and they're (often) about narrow-ness...he wished he did not have to deal with them...just wants to help kids, you know...?

I told him...it's OK...it's all about character-development! Those kids at church need him...those kids from work he protects from the deviants need him..."PUT ON YOUR GAME FACE AND GO HELP!"

I have three great friends in this world...we all love the LORD Jesus more than you know....and our hope and prayer is that OTHERS would TOO...

Forgive my zeal, ok?

OT

whoswatchinwho, nice to meet you!




[edit on 21-11-2008 by OldThinker]

OT the basis of the question was if you took God as an omnipotent being out the picture would you still follow Jesus teachings?

I don't know...it's been so long with Him....I would hope to live a good life...I was always for the under-dog as a kid....even before I met Jesus....maybe He was influencing me before....I don't know....hard question for sure bro!

OT Sleepy!

reply to post by OldThinker


And nice to meet you now too OT, I know exactly how your friend feels, I am at this very moment at work on 'guard' for want of a better word, to a pedophile. It's a difficult position to be in but you have to see past the crime and see the person inside, we were all born the same, we just grew up different.

yes i do know fundamentalism, one of the reasons i posted as you dont strike me as that way. I was brought up roman catholic, extremely religious family, I believe in the way to live, but i don't have faith. which is why i seek out discussion about christianity, I have a need to learn and understand. that wont bring about faith in me, I don't think that will ever change, but it will bring about a greater understanding of the world around us.

reply to post by whoswatchinwho



Strange thing is...I agree with 99.9% of the fundamentalists doctrines...I mean right down the line...I just haven't figured out why they are they way (some) are?

My interpretation of Jesus' actual lifestyle was one of serving people and being real...he went to bars, social places, etc...man his first miracle was making wine...

And these are generally good people...

What is it about 'truth' (percieved) makes people exclusionary? I don't know...?

For me the summation is....humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and He will lift you up...that certainly has application to 'how' one relates to others I would hope...humility is the key!

Well from my own learnt understandings in life and I see everyone can relate to is that;
Despite the seeming varying forms and manifestations there is either the emotion of fear or the emotion of love in this world.

One I find distracts me, confuses me, makes me anxious, hateful, revengeful unappreciative and just quite frankly pisses me off when I get in to its circuitous paths.

The other one however gives me a sense of purpose, confidence, sincere happiness, peace and joy to all those around me

reply to post by OldThinker

For me the summation is....humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and He will lift you up...that certainly has application to 'how' one relates to others I would hope...humility is the key!

Unfortunately, YOU get thrown into the morass of evangelicals on ATS because they give a bad name to Christianity.

It needs to be said though: a spiritual person can have a very close relationship with Jesus or Jah and not have the same viewpoint you and they have. This can be hard to reconcile.

A point that you can learn from? It puts everyone off with the stance that you can help educate one to the knowledge of Christ and all they have to do is contact you to get it. You are assuming that you are a primary agent (that is okay, but it is the manner, that most would contest)? I understand and say this with humility.

There are so many layers to spirituality. If I may say; religion in my experience is a lesser approach but a necessary one in many cases to address the concept of God and his son. But it is not the end all! Unfortunately, religion becomes the God, and so is pushed, regardless of inaccuracy.

I have been having a relationship with God for more than 50 years! I have been to hell and back and have lived to tell the story. When I say I have been to some extent where you are, I speak the truth.

Sometimes we can come off too strong (I definitely include myself) and that puts people off. It becomes a case of shooting ourselves in the foot rather than helping or encouraging a relationship with God, and we naturally use our expressions, and experience, or beliefs, and assume that it would be another's, or Gods only way.

Religion narrows the experience - while spirituality widens it.

Sometimes confidence can come across as arrogance. But...humility can advance us further into more enlightenment and knowledge. I too, speak to the Gods and have a very tight conscious contact with Jah. But... I have learned (the hard way) that it does not mean that others will, and that I cannot apply or preach my level of understanding to others.

Being teachable is knowing when to let go and let ourselves be inspired, and to also recognize when the truth comes through other avenues, and at times, ones that can be very unfamiliar to us - maybe even unacceptable!

Forgive me for being preachy. But I figure you can dish it, so I concluded that you are able to take it!

reply to post by MatrixProphet



MP, Thanks for that...

Great points...well written and challenging...

Ken Blanchard said, "none of of is as smart as all of us!"

And one of those Old Testament guys said...as iron sharpens iron, so one sharpens another!"

OT sharper because of that post!

Thanks,

OT

MP said..."It puts everyone off with the stance that you can help educate one to the knowledge of Christ and all they have to do is contact you to get it. You are assuming that you are a primary agent (that is okay, but it is the manner, that most would contest)?

OT says...Specifically...I think my response to the lonely fellow earlier was to U2U if he wanted to talk...just trying to be a friend to him...

Generally...I would be nowhere with out a person...taking interest in me...helping me learn truth, study theology, etc..etc...

Here's a test to think about....???

1) Of the cuff, Name five talks that changed your life-kinda difficult, huh?

2) Of the cuff name five articles that changed your life-possible, but kinda hard?

3) Now name five people that had a positive impact on your life? EASY!

That's how the economy works...please check out Hebrews 3:13 and think about its INVERSE, OK?

Great post MP!!

reply to post by MatrixProphet


Well put and I appreciate you talking from the heart.
Keep up the good work

Originally posted by MatrixProphet




Being teachable is knowing when to let go and let ourselves be inspired, and to also recognize when the truth comes through other avenues, and at times, ones that can be very unfamiliar to us - maybe even unacceptable!

[edit on 24-11-2008 by Epsillion70]

[edit on 24-11-2008 by Epsillion70]

Originally posted by whoswatchinwho
reply to post by OldThinker

 

...

yes i do know fundamentalism, one of the reasons i posted as you dont strike me as that way. I was brought up roman catholic, extremely religious family, I believe in the way to live, but i don't have faith. which is why i seek out discussion about christianity, I have a need to learn and understand. ...

What things would you like to discuss?

You see the benefit but not the faith? Please explain ok?

OT