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Originally posted by GMoney1
reply to post by OldThinker
To be sure, whether we agree or disagree on the views of this thread, the fact that the dialogue has taken place in and of itself give proof of the existence of Christ and brings praise honor and glory to him.
Thanks OT for praising my Lord and Savior.
Originally posted by Mozzy
it's kindof funny when people like yourself go door to door. one guy told me i was going to hell. lol i told him i'll bring the bar b cue sauce. my wife handles it a lot better. she's hindu and if someone asks her if she's saved she just says yes, lol. it'll catch her off guard sometimes and she pauses before saying it.
i respect religious people but it always scares me that it's possiblethere are people actually taking it seriously. it seems obvious to me that christians spend their time convincing thmeselves more than anyone else. of course people of different walks of life convince themselves of things that arent' true too. i'm not saying the chrsitans are worse off on the whole mind you.
it all does seem off though, if you REALLY took it seriously don't you think you'd be doing something else??? i'm not trying to flame you but it just stands out so much from my point of view.
Originally posted by psychedeliack
I think things would be pretty much the same minus WWJD profiteering, seeing as Jesus is not the only dude out there preaching that kind of message. What about Buddha? ...
Originally posted by asmeone2
I like you so forgive me when I say this, but some of the things you say in your post are very ignorant.
It's impossible to play the "What-If?" game, so I don't want to do that, but I'd like to point out some things that either still happen today, regardless of whether or not Jesus was real, or have developed in other parts of the world independantly of Christianity.
I was always under the impression that slavery was thrown out of the US because of international pressure, not religious beleifs.
Slavery has not disappeared today... there's a healthy human-trafficking market, and many, many people who are subsiding on menial wages, especialyl in 3rd world countries working to support the US. Not free at all.
I don't like how you lump all non-beleives into the catagory of "pagan." There have been many different cultures, who all have different beleifes as to the nature of men, women, and human sexuality, and they should all be discussed and compared within their own context.
That being said, the Christian ideal of males at the "head of the houshold" has caused just as much pain as any other system.
Would there be true compassion and mercy? Probably not! Jesus’ ministry gave an elevated position to the lowly. Notice the Good Samarian… it’s still a part of a vocabulary . While there are good charitable efforts outside of the name of Jesus, Christain charities stand out. Mother Theresa, the Salvation Army, religious hospitals, and church supported soup kitchens/thrift shops, etc. Saint Nick, too, was a saint.
This one really makes me go . Of course there would be true compassion and mercy. They are just as much a part of the human spirit as anger and hatred, just harder to bring out.
Do some reading into Buddhism, for example... compassion and charity is a major tenant of the religion.
It's unfair to say that things like the Salvation Army sustainable charities only because they are Christian. It's actually that are Christian charities because Christianity is the only dominant and accepted religious system in the West.
How would Children fair? Not Good! Back in the day infanticide was not only legal, it was applauded. In Roman culture the killing one's own children could be an act of beauty. It was the early Christian church that ultimately brought an end to infanticide. The modern pro-life movement is largely Christian. This pro-life view has been true from the very beginning of Christianity. An early Christian document, the Didache, contained instructions against abortion.
Infanticide has not stopped. It's even documentable here in our own culture.
What about Education? Would be way behind! Remember Judeo/Christian tradition certainly put an emphasis on the written word. The phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in the Protestant Reformation. Please do a little research here.
Before the reformation the Church was actively stymying the progress of Western thought. This has improved only marginally today.
Please do some historical reasearch into the education and scientific prowess of Ancient China, Ancient India, and early Islamic cultures. You may be surprised. China had a profound knowledge of chemestry, both India and China were proficiant at weaving, dying, and medicine, and the Islamic nations profoundly increased human knowledge of astronomy and mathematics. These countries did not follow Jesus.
Likewise, oriental written alphabets and numeric systems far predate Christianity.
I will not deny you that Christianity has inspired some stunning works of art. I am particulaly awed by Catholic cathedrals, vestments, and Biblical illustrations. But once again, please keep in mind that the 3 cultures I listed above, and many, many without influence of Christianity, have just as profound of an artistic repetoire.
It's also unfair to suggest that art began with Christianity. Every culture has its art, but most hasn't survived to our eyes.
The structure of the AMerican government was based largely on the writings of the Enlightenment. Secular scholars. It was also influenced by the Iraqois government, who once again were not Christian.
Those are my thoughts OT! Hope they help you out a bit!
This year is a historical bicentennial: on 25 March 1807, William Wilberforce’s long fight to end slavery resulted in the royal assent to ‘An Act for the Abolition of the Slave Trade’, which abolished the buying and selling of humans throughout the British Empire. This was after 20 years of struggle and repeated previous defeats of his anti-slavery bills in Parliament.
Originally posted by GMoney1
.....Finally, even from a modern geo political perspective. With out Christ, the current record shattering political upheaval taking place in our nations capital, would absolutely be utterly impossible. Although Jesus himself was purely apolitical, and made it clear that his kingdom was no part of this world on numerous occaissions. The familiar message of hope and change resounded through out this new president elects campaign.
The mark that Jesus the Christ has left has been indisputable. Clearly then the world as we now know it, would not exist with out his having once been here.
Originally posted by Scaye
reply to post by OldThinker
There never was a Jesus. Ever.
The world is just like it is because of us. I wouldn't say that's a good thing at all, but we are still young. If we make it through the next decade, we might just have a chance.
Originally posted by OldThinker
Thank you...the thing that excites OT....is the HONEST....skeptic....who asks the right questions...with the right (searching) spirit...noobfun, for example would fit that bill....also Good Wolf...and nj2Day....these 3 are about learning the truth...and asking the right questions....
Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by noobfun
Saw the video...thanks...
"argument" might be a stretch...can't remember I thought I just asked a question, right?
This sort of reasoning, though it has often been propounded, is entirely unworthy of fair-minded, reasonable men, especially scientists! It is essentially an affirmation of atheism, a denial of the possibility of a real Creation. If God actually created anything at all, even the simplest atoms, those atoms or other creations would necessarily have an appearance of some age. There could be no genuine creation of any kind, without an initial appearance of age inherent in it. It would still be possible to interpret the newly-created matter in terms of some kind of previous evolutionary history. And if God could create atomic stuff with an appearance of age—in other words, if God exists!—then there is no reason why He could not, in full conformity with His character of Truth, create a whole universe full-grown.
4. What about carbon dating?
I would then explain that although the Bible is not primarily a science text, it is found to be completely accurate and trustworthy concerning every topic is covers. I would suggest that it is unscientific to exclude scientific explanations because the premise might be unpopular,
so doesnt the fact there a thousands of people living well past this age prove god wrong?
Because of the serious nature of sin and the effect it has on lowering life expectancy, God set the average life expectancy of man to be 70-80 years old in a Psalm attributed to Moses, ‘The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away,’ Psalm 90:10.
handy that he reversed it but why did he wait till late in the 20th century to do it?
The good news is that God has reversed this curse by sending His Son, the Messiah, to suffer the death that we deserve so that in Him, we might have everlasting life and be restored to the relationship with out Creator that was severed when Adam sinned.
I would then explain that although the Bible is not primarily a science text, it is found to be completely accurate and trustworthy concerning every topic is covers.