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The Great Conspiracy-what if Jesus was never born?

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posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by GMoney1
reply to post by OldThinker
 


To be sure, whether we agree or disagree on the views of this thread, the fact that the dialogue has taken place in and of itself give proof of the existence of Christ and brings praise honor and glory to him.

Thanks OT for praising my Lord and Savior.


gmoney1,

Thank you...the thing that excites OT....is the HONEST....skeptic....who asks the right questions...with the right (searching) spirit...noobfun, for example would fit that bill....also Good Wolf...and nj2Day....these 3 are about learning the truth...and asking the right questions....

Yes, gmoney1...we do not agree on everything....but WE DO on the Spirit of HIM who loves us, asks for us to be POSITIVE, in the midst of BS...right?

OT honored!!!!!!!!




posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by Mozzy
it's kindof funny when people like yourself go door to door. one guy told me i was going to hell. lol i told him i'll bring the bar b cue sauce. my wife handles it a lot better. she's hindu and if someone asks her if she's saved she just says yes, lol. it'll catch her off guard sometimes and she pauses before saying it.

i respect religious people but it always scares me that it's possiblethere are people actually taking it seriously. it seems obvious to me that christians spend their time convincing thmeselves more than anyone else. of course people of different walks of life convince themselves of things that arent' true too. i'm not saying the chrsitans are worse off on the whole mind you.

it all does seem off though, if you REALLY took it seriously don't you think you'd be doing something else??? i'm not trying to flame you but it just stands out so much from my point of view.


Mozzy, OT appreciates you are not trying to FLAME me...OT's not trying to go 'door to door'....

I respect your right to privacy...the Lord Jesus was/is a gentlemen...He never forces his way in....

He just asks the pertinent questions...


like....

Mozzy, who do you say I AM?


Good Question JC!!!!!!

Mozzy, your eternal destiny depends on the answer....


OT would like to know an answer bro????????????

OT out...



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by psychedeliack
I think things would be pretty much the same minus WWJD profiteering, seeing as Jesus is not the only dude out there preaching that kind of message. What about Buddha? ...


psychedeliack,

Hi...

Do you have evdence, to support this claim brother?

What does profiteering mean?

Buddha? Dude, he is still in his grave....found Jesus yet?

OT wondering???



posted on Nov, 9 2008 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
OT,

I like you so forgive me when I say this, but some of the things you say in your post are very ignorant.

It's impossible to play the "What-If?" game, so I don't want to do that, but I'd like to point out some things that either still happen today, regardless of whether or not Jesus was real, or have developed in other parts of the world independantly of Christianity.


Slavery:
I was always under the impression that slavery was thrown out of the US because of international pressure, not religious beleifs.

Slavery has not disappeared today... there's a healthy human-trafficking market, and many, many people who are subsiding on menial wages, especialyl in 3rd world countries working to support the US. Not free at all.


Women's Rights:
I don't like how you lump all non-beleives into the catagory of "pagan." There have been many different cultures, who all have different beleifes as to the nature of men, women, and human sexuality, and they should all be discussed and compared within their own context.

That being said, the Christian ideal of males at the "head of the houshold" has caused just as much pain as any other system.


Would there be true compassion and mercy? Probably not! Jesus’ ministry gave an elevated position to the lowly. Notice the Good Samarian… it’s still a part of a vocabulary . While there are good charitable efforts outside of the name of Jesus, Christain charities stand out. Mother Theresa, the Salvation Army, religious hospitals, and church supported soup kitchens/thrift shops, etc. Saint Nick, too, was a saint.


This one really makes me go . Of course there would be true compassion and mercy. They are just as much a part of the human spirit as anger and hatred, just harder to bring out.

Do some reading into Buddhism, for example... compassion and charity is a major tenant of the religion.

It's unfair to say that things like the Salvation Army sustainable charities only because they are Christian. It's actually that are Christian charities because Christianity is the only dominant and accepted religious system in the West.




How would Children fair? Not Good! Back in the day infanticide was not only legal, it was applauded. In Roman culture the killing one's own children could be an act of beauty. It was the early Christian church that ultimately brought an end to infanticide. The modern pro-life movement is largely Christian. This pro-life view has been true from the very beginning of Christianity. An early Christian document, the Didache, contained instructions against abortion.


Infanticide has not stopped. It's even documentable here in our own culture.



What about Education? Would be way behind! Remember Judeo/Christian tradition certainly put an emphasis on the written word. The phenomenon of education for the masses has its roots in the Protestant Reformation. Please do a little research here.


Before the reformation the Church was actively stymying the progress of Western thought. This has improved only marginally today.

Please do some historical reasearch into the education and scientific prowess of Ancient China, Ancient India, and early Islamic cultures. You may be surprised. China had a profound knowledge of chemestry, both India and China were proficiant at weaving, dying, and medicine, and the Islamic nations profoundly increased human knowledge of astronomy and mathematics. These countries did not follow Jesus.

Likewise, oriental written alphabets and numeric systems far predate Christianity.

I will not deny you that Christianity has inspired some stunning works of art. I am particulaly awed by Catholic cathedrals, vestments, and Biblical illustrations. But once again, please keep in mind that the 3 cultures I listed above, and many, many without influence of Christianity, have just as profound of an artistic repetoire.

It's also unfair to suggest that art began with Christianity. Every culture has its art, but most hasn't survived to our eyes.


American Government:

The structure of the AMerican government was based largely on the writings of the Enlightenment. Secular scholars. It was also influenced by the Iraqois government, who once again were not Christian.



Those are my thoughts OT! Hope they help you out a bit!


I like you too bro...you have always been fair/logical....

But it WAS us CHRISTIANS, who ended SLAVERY...

please see...


This year is a historical bicentennial: on 25 March 1807, William Wilberforce’s long fight to end slavery resulted in the royal assent to ‘An Act for the Abolition of the Slave Trade’, which abolished the buying and selling of humans throughout the British Empire. This was after 20 years of struggle and repeated previous defeats of his anti-slavery bills in Parliament.


Yes, the international PRESSURE was a bunch of Christ followers!!!!!!!

Source: www.creationontheweb.com...



posted on Nov, 10 2008 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by GMoney1
.....Finally, even from a modern geo political perspective. With out Christ, the current record shattering political upheaval taking place in our nations capital, would absolutely be utterly impossible. Although Jesus himself was purely apolitical, and made it clear that his kingdom was no part of this world on numerous occaissions. The familiar message of hope and change resounded through out this new president elects campaign.

The mark that Jesus the Christ has left has been indisputable. Clearly then the world as we now know it, would not exist with out his having once been here.


Yes, it is obviuos where the 'Audacity of HOPE' comes from...I pray that President-elect Obama can bring those ideals to the nation...

He will meet much opposition...I am always reminded of the fact that a nation divided cannot stand...unity is what is needed now.

Thanks for the thought-provoking post Gmoney1!

OT



posted on Nov, 19 2008 @ 10:11 PM
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A quote comes to mind here;

Be the change you want to see in the world
-Mahatma Gandhi



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 09:52 AM
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reply to post by Epsillion70
 


E70,

Thanks for that...here are some other good quotes on 'change'

Doc Childre and Howard Martin, Freeze-Frame
What is required for effective change is continuity of sincere effort to release and let go of inefficient thought patterns from the past.

Lance Armstrong
Hard work, sacrifice and focus will never show up in tests.

Leo Tolstoy
Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself.

John Welwood
The most powerful agent of growth and transformation is something much more basic than any technique: a change of heart. .

Caroline Schoeder
Some people change when they see the light, others when they feel the heat.

I. Krishnamurti
The moment you have in your heart this extraordinary thing called love and feel the depth, the delight, the ecstacy of it, you will discover that for you the world is transformed.

Thomas Fuller
Nothing is easy to the unwilling.

Maya Angelou
If you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, change your attitude. Don't complain.

David Schwartz
The shape of our lives is defined by our insertion into institutions and systems whose interlocking power generates the "virtual reality" we experience. Such 'knowledge' is so thoroughly a part of our worldview that it simply would not occur to most people to question it. Yet underneath this reality is another, subinstitutional reality in which very different responses are simply acted out. This is the reality in which everyone, until very recently, lived.

William James, often attributed to Marilyn Ferguson
The greatest revolution in our generation is that of human beings, who by changing the inner attitudes of their minds, can change the outer aspects of their lives.

Corinthians
Behold, I show you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye...

W.H. Murray, The Story of Everest
Concerning all acts of iniative and creation, there is one elementary truth- that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves, too.

John Steinbeck
Men do change, and change comes like a little wind that ruffles the curtains at dawn, and it comes like the stealthy perfume of wildflowers hidden in the grass.

George Eliot
It is never too late to become what you might have been.

Jessamyn West
We want the facts to fit the preconceptions. When they don't, it is easier to ignore the facts than to change the preconceptions.

John Schaar
The future is not a result of choices among alternative paths offered by the present, but a place that is created--created first in the mind and will, created next in activity. The future is not some place we are going to, but one we are creating. The paths are not to be found, but made, and the activity of making them, changes both the maker and the destination.

Anthony J. D'Angelo, The College Blue Book
Don't fear change, embrace it.

Goethe
Everybody wants to be somebody; nobody wants to grow.

Anne Morrow Lindbergh
Only in growth, reform, and change, paradoxically enough, is true security to be found.

Heraclitus
Nothing endures but change.

Tolstoy
Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself.

William James
To change one's life: 1. Starte immediately, 2. Do it flamboyantly, 3. No exceptions.

Aristotle (384-322 BC) - Greek philosopher
Change in all things is sweet.

Anthony J. D'Angelo, The College Blue Book
Become a student of change. It is the only thing that will remain constant.

Heraclitus
There is nothing permanent except change.

James Hillman
If you are still being hurt by an event that happened to you at twelve, it is the thought that is hurting you now.

Unknown
Your current safe boundries were once unknown frontiers.

Dr. Robert Anthony
When you blame others, you give up your power to change.

Robert Frost (1874-1963)
Most of the change we think we see in life is due to truths being in and out of favour.

Andrea Ayvazian
A reporter interviewing A.J. Muste, who during the Vietnam War stood in front of the White House night after night with a candle, one rainy night asked,"Mr. Muste, do you really think you are going to change the policies of this country by standing out here alone at night with a candle?" Muste replied, "Oh, I don't do it to change the country, I do it so the country won't change me.



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 09:56 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


There never was a Jesus. Ever.

The world is just like it is because of us. I wouldn't say that's a good thing at all, but we are still young. If we make it through the next decade, we might just have a chance.



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by Scaye
reply to post by OldThinker
 


There never was a Jesus. Ever.

The world is just like it is because of us. I wouldn't say that's a good thing at all, but we are still young. If we make it through the next decade, we might just have a chance.


Scaye,

Don't worry...we will make it through the next decade!!!!

We will still be here posting on ATS....laughing about all those "what if?" posting we put on the internet...

Have a cold one on OT (if you are of age of course?)


OT

PS: I just talked to Jesus a few minutes ago...HE said 'hi, what's up Scaye? IAM that IAM!!!"



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker

Thank you...the thing that excites OT....is the HONEST....skeptic....who asks the right questions...with the right (searching) spirit...noobfun, for example would fit that bill....also Good Wolf...and nj2Day....these 3 are about learning the truth...and asking the right questions....


thank you very much always nice to be appreciated ^_^

remeber the argument you made earlier about god could have made the universe look old i found a video you might appreciate and bring a smile

it shows the inherent problems with that argument in a blindingly simple manner



god couldnt have made it becasue cdk007 did you just think god did, and you only think these things becasue i made it just 5 seconds ago and made everything else up so you would beleive it

thank you cdk007



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 05:09 PM
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reply to post by noobfun
 


Saw the video...thanks...

"argument" might be a stretch...can't remember I thought I just asked a question, right?

Oh well...

I just created a cold one...gonna watch some created football....




posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by noobfun
 


Saw the video...thanks...

"argument" might be a stretch...can't remember I thought I just asked a question, right?


i mean it in the debate sense you raised a possability up for discussion

the wording looks much stronger then it was meant to sorry about that



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 05:29 PM
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reply to post by noobfun
 


Oh...I know...no problem...

Hey when you get back check this site out...

Here's a snip...


This sort of reasoning, though it has often been propounded, is entirely unworthy of fair-minded, reasonable men, especially scientists! It is essentially an affirmation of atheism, a denial of the possibility of a real Creation. If God actually created anything at all, even the simplest atoms, those atoms or other creations would necessarily have an appearance of some age. There could be no genuine creation of any kind, without an initial appearance of age inherent in it. It would still be possible to interpret the newly-created matter in terms of some kind of previous evolutionary history. And if God could create atomic stuff with an appearance of age—in other words, if God exists!—then there is no reason why He could not, in full conformity with His character of Truth, create a whole universe full-grown.


Source: www.creationstudies.org...

Not sure I'm a 600 or 6 million year dude...just above my pay grade you know...

Here are some of the questions asked on the site...with answers...I know you'll have a comment or two


1. How can I briefly explain to a person knowledgeable about Evolution why and how to believe in Creationism?

2. Creationists say we are getting worse, but since we have medicine, don’t we live longer?
Haven’t we improved?

3. When did the Ice age happen and how can it be justified biblically?

4. What about carbon dating?

5. How do you explain dinosaurs in creation?

6. How can I briefly explain to a person knowledgeable about Evolution why and how to believe in Creationism?

7. Is it possible that God would have created an earth which is a billion years old, in 6 days, less than 10,000 years ago, in the same way that He created Adam not as a baby, but as an adult?

8. The bible teaches that God created the world out of nothing. If that is true, why does it say “the earth was formless and empty” and “the Spirit of God hovered over the waters”? It sounds like there was some water there.

9. Evolutionists have drawn lines of evolutionary descent between supposed ancestors to mankind. Are these “Cavemen” real or are they just computer generated images?

10. The topic of “Intelligent Design” is often referred to in the media. What are your thoughts of using purely scientific arguments like these that omit any reference to “God”?

11. Isn’t the evidence of our expanding technology proof of the evolution of human brain development?
Are we more advanced than our ancestors or are we actually in decline?


OT

PS: what's up with the sexy ladies on that creation video intro...you gonna get me in trouble...haven't you read Proverbs 7...eeekkkk!



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 



4. What about carbon dating?


can't say that I agree... First they want to date... then they'll want equal rights to marry...

Carbon Marriage is sick and wrong


We need a constitutional amendment to ensure that carbons will never be allowed to marry!

anyway, nice to see ya OT... I'm checking out the link in a min



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 05:51 PM
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reply to post by nj2day
 






Problem with 'carbon sex' it just doesn't rub off!!!!!


Sorry WAY WAY off target...stink I should know better....freak I'm the OP?



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 05:52 PM
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I would then explain that although the Bible is not primarily a science text, it is found to be completely accurate and trustworthy concerning every topic is covers. I would suggest that it is unscientific to exclude scientific explanations because the premise might be unpopular,


im still reading but ive just done this one in another thread

someone with little understanding of anything science and an ear ful of creationistic sillyness made the comment

show me what part of the bible science proves wrong

as it happens almost everything in genesis 1 including "let there be light and there was"

i think the only real and viable answer to number 1 has 2 possabilities

hit them over the head until they get amnesia or brain damage and forget everything, then teach them creationism first and pray the amnesia doesnt wear off

intense boughts of brain washing with psyhcotropic drugs combined with a regieme of physical torture for utterin anything none creationist

but they hardley seem the christian thing to ..i hope none of them read this the usually do the unchristian thing anyway they will all be wondering around college campus's with baseball bats asking everyone if they have stuied evolution


Because of the serious nature of sin and the effect it has on lowering life expectancy, God set the average life expectancy of man to be 70-80 years old in a Psalm attributed to Moses, ‘The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labor and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away,’ Psalm 90:10.
so doesnt the fact there a thousands of people living well past this age prove god wrong?


The good news is that God has reversed this curse by sending His Son, the Messiah, to suffer the death that we deserve so that in Him, we might have everlasting life and be restored to the relationship with out Creator that was severed when Adam sinned.
handy that he reversed it but why did he wait till late in the 20th century to do it?

as the average age was well below 70-80 until very recently, did he forget to put a post-it on gods fridge to remind him to do it earlier?

and if its been reversed shouldnt we be living to 1000 like adam and co ?

this stuff is funny
[edit on 20/11/08 by noobfun]

[edit on 20/11/08 by noobfun]



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 05:57 PM
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reply to post by noobfun
 


We always spiked the sunday school cookies with psychotropics...



They laughed alot...


OT

Edit: Thought OT's computer was going on the blink...must be all your EDITS...slow down ok?


[edit on 20-11-2008 by OldThinker]



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 06:02 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Hrm... I'm a few questions in...

I was wondering what your thoughts on this was OT...

So far it seems like the person answering the questions is speaking awfully matter-of-factly...

Its almost like, they expect their answers to be taken for gospel. A lot of these claims I'm thinking there isn't a bunch of biblical references to back it up.

Sin lowers life expectancy for example...

(I'm holdling off on tearing it to shreds until after I finish reading it lol)



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by nj2day
 


Yeah...I'll answer that....

give me a bit?

OT



posted on Nov, 20 2008 @ 06:10 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


I would then explain that although the Bible is not primarily a science text, it is found to be completely accurate and trustworthy concerning every topic is covers.


wow... just wow...

I have to take a brief 5 min break from reading that... That line made me laugh so hard my sides hurt and my eyes are tearing up...

still... as I promised... I'm not going to tear it to shreds just yet lol



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