Evidence to support how Obama's tax plan will hurt the economy

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posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 10:19 AM
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There was another economist on the radio last night, again talking about Obama's tax plan, basically saying the same things all the other economists were saying. But then he talked about something I've not heard before and gave an entire country as an example.

Check out this page: www.taxfoundation.org...

Prior to 1981, Ireland had one of the highest corporate tax rates at 41%, and their economy was weak, their unemployment rate was high.


But in the mid-1980s, the economy was faltering, college graduates were emigrating, and the outlook was bleak:

"We went on a borrowing, spending and taxing spree, and that nearly drove us under," said Deputy Prime Minister Mary Harney. "It was because we nearly went under that we got the courage to change."


Sounds eerily familiar doesn't it?

Then, in an unprecedented move, they decided to cut corporate taxes to 12.5%. Overnight, their economy began to GROW.


This change included a corporate tax rate cut to 12.5 percent, far below the rest of Europe, which attracted foreign investment. Nine of ten of the world's top pharmaceutical companies and seven of the top ten software designers currently have operations in Ireland.


Now, two decades later, their economy is booming.


In 2001 the Tax Foundation hosted a delegation of congressional tax staff on a European tax conference that included a meeting with officials from Ireland’s Industrial Development Agency, who explained that the corporate tax rate cut had stimulated economic growth and new foreign investment.


Can't you Obama supporters understand this? Obama's tax plan is a "Robin Hood" type of plan, take from the rich and give to the poor. That's all well and good, but it doesn't work for economics because the rich still control the number of jobs that the poor work. Take from the Rich and they will take jobs back to make up the loss!!! Robin Hood economics DO NOT WORK, especially when this country is headed into a recession.

All you have to do is heed the above example of Ireland! Obama doesn't get it. Now I don't know if McCain heeds this type of policy, but I do know that he doesn't plan to raise corporate taxes.


[edit on 29-10-2008 by sos37]




posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 10:28 AM
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Nice info on that site... I'll have to research into if the page is truely non-partisan like it claims.

I am all for corporate tax breaks... under two conditions: We raise tariffs to make our domestic companies more competative vs. imports, and the tax breaks are designed to encurage the companies to give back to thier local communities...

With those two things in place, I think tax breaks could be awesome...



posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 10:31 AM
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There is more than enough evidence to back this up as well. I started a thread here not too long ago in which I detailed the markets fear of an Obama Presidency.

Then we have more examples like this where the owner of the Miami Dolphins is rushing to sell his team before Obama is elected.

These types of things are everywhere, and they display a growing sentiment among most of America.

[edit on 29-10-2008 by nyk537]



posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by nyk537
There is more than enough evidence to back this up as well. I started a thread here not too long ago in which I detailed the markets fear of an Obama Presidency.

Then we have more examples like this where the owner of the Miami Dolphins is rushing to sell his team before Obama is elected.

These types of things are everywhere, and they display a growing sentiment among most of America.

[edit on 29-10-2008 by nyk537]


They were saying last night to watch the stock market next week very closely, especially on Monday and Wednesday. Monday because they are announcing some preliminary numbers this weekend as far as voter turnout and new polling data (take that for what it's worth) and Wed. after the election.

If Obama wins, they anticipate the single largest stock market drop in history for a single day as those with economic sense liquidate their assets to avoid being taxed.



posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 10:39 AM
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kk, just for people wondering about the non-partisan check I was doing:

Not only was I able to find sources siting it as non-partisan, I also found liberal and Conservative websites linking to it to prove their points.

I think if both Liberals and conservatives link to it... it is truly non-partisan...

Nice find OP... I'm kinda surprised I've never seen/heard of that site before!

I like non-partisan sources quoted in the initial arguments... star for u!


edit: edited for clarity

[edit on 29-10-2008 by nj2day]



posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 12:19 PM
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In print this is awesome. The reason though that I have a hard time believing this would play out the same way here in America if we cut corporate taxes like they did in Ireland is this:



While some of Friedman’s suggestions are debatable (for example, that free college education is conducive to economic growth), he accurately describes two important aspects of the Irish transformation: [M]ake your corporate taxes low, simple and transparent; open your economy to competition …


Ok so how do you suppose with all the greed and corruption and lobbying in DC by the corporations that there would be a simple and transparent tax on these corporations? I'm sorry I don't see these guys becoming less greedy. Where ever they can make a buck... and look where that has gotten us already.

Also our economy is already open to competition, that is one reason Americans are hurting right now, the competition has moved in and are busy taking jobs.

I believe this could be a good idea for this country, I'm am just not seeing how this could logically be implemented over here in the US and not have some major problems.

Also there is no guarantee lowering corporate taxes will help a 21st century super power based on a program that worked in another country over 20 years ago, yes I know history repeats itself.

I just don't see anything simple or transparent from either side, why would they start now, in the last 8 years we have been put in the dark more than ever... and now with McCain we will see the light? Sorry can't buy it.



posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by nuffsaid420
In print this is awesome. The reason though that I have a hard time believing this would play out the same way here in America if we cut corporate taxes like they did in Ireland is this:



While some of Friedman’s suggestions are debatable (for example, that free college education is conducive to economic growth), he accurately describes two important aspects of the Irish transformation: [M]ake your corporate taxes low, simple and transparent; open your economy to competition …


Ok so how do you suppose with all the greed and corruption and lobbying in DC by the corporations that there would be a simple and transparent tax on these corporations? I'm sorry I don't see these guys becoming less greedy. Where ever they can make a buck... and look where that has gotten us already.

Also our economy is already open to competition, that is one reason Americans are hurting right now, the competition has moved in and are busy taking jobs.

I believe this could be a good idea for this country, I'm am just not seeing how this could logically be implemented over here in the US and not have some major problems.

Also there is no guarantee lowering corporate taxes will help a 21st century super power based on a program that worked in another country over 20 years ago, yes I know history repeats itself.

I just don't see anything simple or transparent from either side, why would they start now, in the last 8 years we have been put in the dark more than ever... and now with McCain we will see the light? Sorry can't buy it.


Well, let's examine those arguments. Yes, our economy is open to competition, but only to an extent. We have anti-trust laws in place which are supposed to prevent market abuse by one company.

I think you can safely say that the European Union is more "competition friendly" than the U.S. is, however. They favor giving everyone an equal chance even if one company produces the most stellar products on the market. Take Apple and Google for example. They won't ever have market dominance in Europe the way they do here in the states for that very reason.

So I agree with you that part of the reason this worked so well for Ireland was because their market philsophies were already geared toward a more competitive economy, they just lacked the capital to make it happen.

In the case of the U.S., however, I think what we're seeing is the edge of an economic transformation. Do we want to encourage foreign investment into our nation or stifle it? Foreign investors will pour far more money into the U.S. economy than the average U.S. taxpayer will if the rates are low enough.

Now if you raise the corporate tax rate and discourage companies from doing business overseas (offshoring jobs), then you discourage participation in the global economy, which is what we have today. I think that's truly a step in the wrong direction. McCain is right when he told Detroit, "The jobs are gone and they aren't coming back". That cost him the state in the primary, but he was telling the truth. Americans need education so they can acquire new jobs that open up in the states as a result of foreign investment into U.S. companies and new investments of foreign investments on U.S. soil.

So I guess it's a question of whether or not you believe that the U.S. ought to be participating more heavily in the global economy or not.



posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 10:10 PM
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posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 11:42 PM
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Aggregate demand increases aggregate output. Supply-side economics is incorrect.



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 12:11 AM
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The problem is that Ireland now faces record unemployment and was the first European economy to fall into recession. Most of my family is terrified that there is going to be a return to the poverty my grandparents faced. My cousins have both recently moved back to the US after the tech jobs dried up.



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by round_eyed_dog
The problem is that Ireland now faces record unemployment and was the first European economy to fall into recession. Most of my family is terrified that there is going to be a return to the poverty my grandparents faced. My cousins have both recently moved back to the US after the tech jobs dried up.


With the global economy hurting the way it is, there are many countries in the same boat. Are you saying that it's particularly worse in Ireland? If so, I wonder what's driving that ...



posted on Oct, 31 2008 @ 12:34 PM
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reply to post by sos37
 


It cracks me up how so many people campaign for their candidate based on a fear of what might happen if the other guy is elected.

You can spin your wheels all you want, but the only people who will be successful are those who put their energy behind what they want, not behind what they are opposed to.

Anyone who grabs your ear and says that you should vote one way or another out of fear is a charlatan. Only those who focus on their candidate and what they bring and the good it can do matter to me.

I have yet to hear any McCain supporter explain to me why I should vote for McCain based on his platform and policies. All I hear them say is why I shouldn't vote for Obama. That says a lot about the Mccain Campaign if you ask me.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 11:41 AM
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