Creationism's Legacy: Anti-intellectualism, page 3
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 31 times


reply posted on 29-10-2008 @ 02:29 PM by dave420
reply to post by pieman



Now you're clutching at straws. Seriously. It's embarrassing.

Evolution happens. We have seen one species turn into a new species. That is evolution - what do you mean by evolution, if not the standard definition used by the rest of the world? The theory behind it, since its very inception, has not been overturned by any newly-discovered evidence, even the massive discovery of DNA. It is constantly being refined, making it more and more accurate. If it was bunk, that wouldn't be possible - it would be thrown out and whatever had better evidence would supplant it as the de facto standard theory on where species come from.

You need to be convinced the theory of evolution is correct? Read the wikipedia article on it. Seriously. It cites all its sources, and is objective and rational. Read it. Learn something. Better yourself.

You admit you are ignorant, yet do nothing to fix it. You are embracing ignorance.


reply posted on 29-10-2008 @ 03:05 PM by pieman
Originally posted by dave420
Evolution happens. We have seen one species turn into a new species.

we haven't.

That is evolution - what do you mean by evolution, if not the standard definition used by the rest of the world?


the modification of a species through the process of natural selection through subsiquent generations!! what do you describe it as?

The theory behind it, since its very inception, has not been overturned by any newly-discovered evidence, even the massive discovery of DNA. It is constantly being refined, making it more and more accurate.
If it was bunk, that wouldn't be possible - it would be thrown out and whatever had better evidence would supplant it as the de facto standard theory on where species come from.
the same argument could have been made for many of the beliefs of the 15th century, it hardly makes them correct. evolution is a good working model but i doubt it will still be in place in 200 years time.
there is no full fossil record, is there?
there is no reproduceanble evolution of any species through natural selection, is there?
the two most important facets of the belief are missing, everything else is circumstantial evidence.

You need to be convinced the theory of evolution is correct? Read the wikipedia article on it. Seriously. It cites all its sources, and is objective and rational. Read it. Learn something. Better yourself.

You admit you are ignorant, yet do nothing to fix it. You are embracing ignorance.

i have read numerous studies of the theories of evolution a hell of lot more authoritative than wiki and have discussed it with real, bonafide experts in the field, it isn't that i don't know, it's that i don't agree. there is a difference.



[edit on 29/10/08 by pieman]

[edit on 29/10/08 by pieman]



reply posted on 29-10-2008 @ 03:34 PM by pieman
Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to
post by pieman



Show me this. I've not ever seen it this way. Evolution is taught in schools as fact because we know it happens, what is also taught as part of evolution is all the bits where it says "It is thought that" or "Scientists believe". Theories that are held by the scientific community will be taught, not as fact but as science.


evolution cannot be shown, mutation can be shown. the reason i say it is taught as if it were fact is because it is not made clear the extent to which holes exist in the theory. i am not a teacher, i may be incorrect, but i believe i am not. the holes weren't pointed out to me in science.


Also, hate to point this out to ya but you have been ignorant. Not only did a few of us have to explain the different between theory and hypothesis but the whole scientific method.


hate to point this out to you but i was asking you to expand on your misleading and dishonest spin. i was pointing out the spin involved in scientific proposal. was i too subtle for you? let me explain seeing as you didn't work it out all by yourself.

the difference between the usage of a word in the general population, students for instance, and the scientific community is very important in regard to education. explaining something to a lay person using misleading professional terms is duplicitous. requiring anyone to make an informed decision on something after offering only one perspective is duplicitous. providing the corroborative evidence while obscuring the opposing evidence is duplicitous. by having you and others provide examples to this effect by asking leading questions is more constructive to my argument.

i think perhaps you missed the reasoning for why i pointed out the attack, my point wasn't that i am not ignorant and shouldn't be attacked (ignorance is a state of not knowing, i am not ashamed that i do not know everything), my point was that i was attacked for ignorance, or rather that there was an attempt to diminish me because of my ignorance.

this is typical of the psudo-science priests of our culture. a real man of science shouldn't be afraid of questions and should be delighted to be given an opportunity to educate.

as regard to off topic posts, you are just as guilty, or more so, of de-railing the thread, despite my having stated it more than once, you have not expanded on the point i have repeatedly made, a single minded attempt to put forward only one perspective is anti-intellectual, not the attempt to promote creationism. not offering an alternative nor a quantification of the probability of a theory is anti-intellectual.


reply posted on 29-10-2008 @ 04:26 PM by pieman
Originally posted by Good Wolf
Creationism has been put in it's place, it has been shown to be factually bankrupt. That's why it get's eviscerated when proponents makes threads like "Evolution proven false" and reason that thermodynamics disprove it. Such an exercise is not anti-intellectual, far from it.
i don't follow you, at all. what has this got to do with my point?

I don't know why your hung up on this. We do not need quantification of anything period! The theory is accepted and taught not only because it is the best explanation for the diversity of life but because it is the sole theory on the diversity of life. That's it. No probabilities needed. None. But I fail to see how these academics are anti-intellectual. What definition are you going by, cos it isn't the one from wikipedia.


the definition is in the name, anti, meaning against and intellectualism meaning the exploration of the universe using the mind in a rational way.

the anti-intellectualism isn't in the fact that evolution is proposed as the best explanation we have, it is in proposing it as if it is the only explanation that exists or will ever exist. this is the impression i get from your quote. quantification would remedy this as it would make it perfectly clear that not only is a better explanation possible, it is inevitable.

What the hell are you talking about?! Forced hybridization? What hybridization? Speciation doesn't involve any form of hybrids.


your links on page one, for example, one example among many
5.1.1.2 Kew Primrose (Primula kewensis)

Digby (1912) crossed the primrose species Primula verticillata and P. floribunda to produce a sterile hybrid. Polyploidization occurred in a few of these plants to produce fertile offspring. The new species was named P. kewensis. Newton and Pellew (1929) note that spontaneous hybrids of P. verticillata and P. floribunda set tetraploid seed on at least three occasions. These happened in 1905, 1923 and 1926.


calm down and take a deep breath mate, it's only words on a screen.

[edit on 29/10/08 by pieman]


reply posted on 29-10-2008 @ 04:32 PM by pieman
reply to post by FSBlueApocalypse



i disagree, i believe the rise of creationism being taught in schools is because the lack of any other viable explanation offered by science creates a vacuum in which it is possible to propose that creationism be taught as an opposing view point to the hopelessly flawed theory of evolution.

i am not saying that creation should be taught, i am saying evolution should not be taught except in reference to quantifiable theory, it is not strong enough to stand alone or as a base. i truely believe it is not a whole lot stronger than certain strains of creationism.

i have made the quantification point with reference to this.


[edit on 29/10/08 by pieman]


reply posted on 29-10-2008 @ 04:37 PM by FSBlueApocalypse
Originally posted by pieman
reply to
post by FSBlueApocalypse



i disagree, i believe the rise of creationism being taught in schools is because the lack of any other viable explanation offered by science creates a vacuum in which it is possible to propose that creationism be taught as an opposing view point to the hopelessly flawed theory of evolution.



The theory of evolution is only hopelessly flawed to those who don't understand it. The theory of evolution is the bedrock on which modern Biology is based on. And to be fair, those who take a standard high school Biology class may not be able to grasp all that is necessary about the theory of evolution. However, when EVERY credible scientist says it happens, it does for a reason.


reply posted on 29-10-2008 @ 05:12 PM by Venit
reply to post by darkelf



Yet the scientific method is valid. It's use allows us to progress our knowledge; besides, scientists rejoice when their proved wrong by evidence published in peer reviewed journals. You ever seen a creationist concede that they might be wrong.

Anyway, OP is correct. Creationism and I.D are a stain upon the education system and they should NOT be allowed in the science lesson. There is NO evidence for I.D/Creationism, while there is a wealth of evidence for current scientifically accepted theories.


reply posted on 29-10-2008 @ 05:19 PM by pieman
reply to post by Good Wolf



sharks are specialised in different ways in the same ecosystem.

crocodillians, generally, don't. also they spend quite a while as prey during their lives, they only become top of the food chain preditors when they are big. consequently, a lot more are hatched than survive to adulthood. i would expect this to be the area of evolution.

just an observation, lets not get hung up.
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