911 Truth Will Never Fade, Only Grow! , page 3

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999

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Very valid point SF. Although I find myself disagreeing with your point of view of pure loyalty without question on this subject I have to give you kudos when they are due.

However, here is where I have a problem with the lack of intercept on 911.

Contact was lost with Payne's plane (a fairly small plane) so they had to SEARCH for it. Yes, I can see it taking over an hour and quite frankly I'm surprised they found it at all.

Anyway, the problem I have is that the hijacked planes didn't have all of their tracking signals shut off right away. They knew something was up and then once it was known they were hijacked the scramble should have taken place and every plane that did not respond should have been intercepted while their tracking was available.

Since every plane but the few that were 'hijacked' did reply there was little confusion on where to send them. Not with out mighty air force and security systems in place right?

You see, it's a scam. We were scammed. For everyone who believes the BS story the government put out there I feel sorry for them. This event was ALLOWED to happen and there is no questioning that.

As for the movement gaining strength, well, I'm concerned there. History and human nature shows that people tend to move on. There is always that furor once the idea of something 'WRONG' happening and the lying to takes place but after time (as the people who pulled this off know full well), it simply fades away to legend and myth.

There is too much power blocking every possible move by the people for real truth on this subject. No court will touch a lawsuit brought against the government. There will never be a true non-biased committee to look into this event. It's a joke and it's on us.

So, continue to enjoy the lie you live SF. I will give you props when you earn them and continue to disagree with you about what really happened that day.

Cheers!

reply to post by jthomas

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Demonstrating logic and critical thinking to 9/11 Truthers is indeed hard. Particularly when they latch on to what they've been told by their religious 9/11 truth leaders.

Off topic resonse.

(Nothing could be further from the truth.)

Please show your sources of proof that back your claim?

workers, firemen, and how they and the evidence they saw and collected were "controlled" by the government. Then we can move on to you telling us how all the independent investigators, forensic scientists, architects, structural engineers, etc. etc, were "possessed and controlled" by the government.

Your response does not address my post.

People looking for the truth do not need to promote “myth” only disinfo and debunkers promote myth

You're confused. Debunkers debunk your myths and religious 9/11 Denial. As has been recorded here and elsewhere for the last seven years.

No myths on my side. Again, your response dose not address my post.

(The "government" never had the evidence to begin with.)

Please give us credible sources to prove your claim?

It is YOUR claim that you need to support. You're going to prove to us how the government is the source of all the evidence about the attacks of 9/11. You'd better get to work, don't you think?

The burden is still on you, and again you have not addressed my question.

(It is no wonder that the 9/11 Truth Movement got stuck seven years ago repeating this silliness that you do. It has gotten you absolutely nowhere.)

You attempt to draw me into emotional response without discussion of the issues. If you have something useful to contribute which defeats my argument, let's here (sic) it.

Remember, you are the one claiming there is some "official story" and the government magically is the source and possessor of ALL of the evidence of 9/11. You are required to support your own claims and if that fact upsets you, too bad.

What do you call the 911 Commission report, the 911 NIST, and the FEMA report?

You have failed to answer any of my questions. If you really do not like what other posters have to say about 911 why do you continue to come in these threads?

reply to post by dariousg

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Contact was lost with Payne's plane (a fairly small plane) so they had to SEARCH for it. Yes, I can see it taking over an hour and quite frankly I'm surprised they found it at all.

No, they didn't have to search for it. The transponder was never turned off.

Anyway, the problem I have is that the hijacked planes didn't have all of their tracking signals shut off right away. They knew something was up and then once it was known they were hijacked the scramble should have taken place and every plane that did not respond should have been intercepted while their tracking was available.

Flight 11:

Hijacked at 8:14.
Transponder turned off at 8:21.
Controllers determined it was hijacked at 8:25.
Military notified at 8:38.
Fighters ordered to scramble at 8:46.
Fighters airborne at 8:53.
Aircraft impacted the World Trade Center at 8:46.

Flight 175:

Hijacked between 8:42 and 8:46.
Transponder code changed at 8:47.
Controllers determined hijack at 8:55.
Military notified at 9:03.
Aircraft impacted the World Trade Center at 9:03.

Flight 77:

Hijacked between 8:51 and 8:54.
Transponder turned off at 8:56.
Controllers suspected hijack at 9:20.
Military notified at 9:36.
Aircraft impacted the Pentagon at 9:38.

Flight 93:

Hijacked at 9:28.
Controllers suspected hijack at 9:32.
Transponder was turned off at 9:41.
Military was notified at 10:07.
Aircraft impacted the ground at 10:03.

You see, it's a scam. We were scammed. For everyone who believes the BS story the government put out there I feel sorry for them.

Wouldn't it help to know what the government story is before calling it BS?

In July, 1965 I had just been commissioned a Second Lieutenant in the U. S. Air Force after taking a solemn oath that I would protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that I would bear true faith and allegiance to the same. I took that oath very seriously, and it was my constant companion throughout a thirty-year military career in the field of aircraft maintenance.

As an additional duty, aircraft maintenance officers are occasionally tasked as members of aircraft accident investigation boards and my personal experience was no exception. In 1989 I graduated from the Aircraft Mishap Investigation Course at the Institute of Safety and Systems Management at the University of Southern California . In addition to my direct participation as an aircraft accident investigator, I reviewed countless aircraft accident investigation reports for thoroughness and comprehensive conclusions for the Inspector General, HQ Pacific Air Forces during the height of the Vietnam conflict.

In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even learned of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft --- and in most cases, even determining the precise cause of the accident. This is because every military and civilian passenger-carrying aircraft have many parts that are identified for safety of flight. That is, if any of the parts were to fail at any time during a flight, the failure would likely result in the catastrophic loss of aircraft and passengers. Consequently, these parts are individually controlled by a distinctive serial number and tracked by a records section of the maintenance operation and by another section called plans and scheduling.

Following a certain number of flying hours or, in the case of landing gears, a certain number of takeoff-and-landing cycles, these critical parts are required to be replaced, overhauled or inspected by specialist mechanics. The plans and scheduling section will notify maintenance specialists with a work order when the parts must be replaced. When the parts are installed, the completed work order will have serial numbers of the parts married to the aircraft registration number and it will be returned to the records section for updating in the aircraft records. If the parts are not replaced within specified time or cycle limits the airplane will normally be grounded until the maintenance action is completed. Most of these time-change parts, whether hydraulic flight surface actuators, pumps, landing gears, engines or engine components, are virtually indestructible. It would be impossible for an ordinary fire resulting from an airplane crash to destroy or obliterate all of those critical time-change parts or their serial numbers. I repeat, impossible.

Considering the catastrophic incidents of September 11 2001 , certain troubling but irrefutable conclusions must be drawn from the known facts, and I get no personal pleasure or satisfaction from reporting my assessment of these facts.

United Airlines Flight 93
This flight was reported by the federal government to be a Boeing 757 aircraft, registration number N591UA, carrying 45 persons, including four Arab hijackers who had taken control of the aircraft, crashing the plane in a Pennsylvania farm field.

Aerial photos of the alleged crash site were made available to the general public. They show a shallow, smoking hole in the ground, but private investigators were not allowed to come anywhere near the alleged crash site. If an aircraft crash caused the hole in the ground, there would have literally hundreds of serially controlled time-change parts within the hole that would have proven beyond any shadow of doubt the precise tail-number or identity of the aircraft. However, the government has not produced any physical evidence that would prove beyond doubt, the specific identity of the aircraft that allegedly crashed at that site. On the contrary, it was reported that the aircraft, registry number N591UA, was still in operation for several weeks after September 11, 2001 .
American Airlines Flight 11

This flight was reported by the government to be a Boeing 767-200, registration number N334AA, carrying 92 people, including foreign nationals who had hijacked the plane. This plane was reported to have crashed into the north tower of the WTC complex of buildings.
Again, the government would have no trouble proving its case if only a few of the hundreds of serially controlled parts had been collected to positively identify the aircraft. A Boeing 767 landing gear or just one engine would have been easy to find and identify.
United Airlines Flight 175
This flight was reported to be a Boeing 767-200, registration number N612UA, carrying 65 people, including the crew and five hijackers. It reportedly flew into the south tower of the WTC.
Once more, the government has yet to produce even one serially controlled part from the crash site that would have dispelled any questions as to the identity of the specific airplane.
American Airlines Flight 77
This was reported to be a Boeing 757, registration number N644AA, carrying 64 people, including the flight crew and five hijackers. This aircraft, with a 125-foot wingspan, was reported to have crashed into the Pentagon, leaving an entry hole no more than 16 feet wide.
Following a cool-down of the resulting fire, this crash site would have been very easy to collect enough time-change equipment within 15 minutes to positively identify the aircraft registry. There was apparently some aerospace type of equipment found at the site but no attempt was made to produce serial numbers or to identify the specific parts found. Some of the equipment removed from the building was actually hidden from public view.
Conclusion
The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001 , resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. The hard evidence would have included hundreds of critical time-change aircraft items, plus security videotapes that were confiscated by the FBI immediately following each tragic episode.
With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased, rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Shanksville, Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. Regarding the planes that allegedly flew into the two WTC towers, it appears that heavy aircraft were involved in each case, but no evidence has been produced that would support the government's version of what actually caused the total destruction of the buildings, let alone proving the identity of the aircraft. That is the central problem with the government's 911 story.
As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to have been involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history.
pilotsfor911truth.org...
With this been said, you do not have any proof what was flying around on the morning of 911.
Because with out the proof that these airplanes existed you have nothing but parrot what the media and what the Government wants you to believe.

I do not know what airplanes or what was use that day on 911 and nether do you.



[edit on 10/31/2008 by cashlink]

Originally posted by cashlink

In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even learned of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft --- and in most cases, even determining the precise cause of the accident. This is because every military and civilian passenger-carrying aircraft have many parts that are identified for safety of flight. That is, if any of the parts were to fail at any time during a flight, the failure would likely result in the catastrophic loss of aircraft and passengers. Consequently, these parts are individually controlled by a distinctive serial number and tracked by a records section of the maintenance operation and by another section called plans and scheduling.

This has already been addressed in many forums for years. Let's review:

1) As you describe, serial numbers are used to identify the source, manufacture lot, etc. for the purposes of tracing possible flaws and failures in specific design, flawed manufacturing lots, during investigations of aircraft accidents.

2) Serial numbers are not needed to identify an aircraft when the identification of that aircraft is readily apparent:

The following e-mail was provided by a Susan Stevenson of the NTSB on 12/26/2007, in response to a 12/16/2007 public correspondence e-mail inquiry:

“Yes. NTSB investigators rarely encounter a scenario when the identification of an accident aircraft is not apparent. But during those occasions, investigators will record serial numbers of major components, and then contact the manufacturer of those components in an attempt to determine what aircraft the component was installed upon.”

- gunnyg.wordpress.com...

3) As we know, the crashes of all four planes were not accidents. Therefore, the use of serial numbers for the purpose of identifying flawed parts is moot.

4) It is readily apparent from all the available evidence that all four flights were identified on 9/11.

5) As a crime, the crash investigations were taken over by the FBI with the NTSB assisting.

6) No one here possesses the knowledge that serial numbers were not collected and reported

The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001 , resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft.

Once again, a 9/11 Truther claims what happened on 9/11 is magically a "government allegation." I don't think I need to repeat the absurdity of such nonsense. It is evident on the face of it and 9/11 Truthers have failed miserably on reliance of this canard.

The evidence of what happened to the planes and their identification came from multiple, independent sources. The government was neither the source of the evidence nor could it prevent the identification of all the aircraft.

So, cashlink and others, you need to start thinking rationally about what you are writing and stop repeating those canards that have already been debunked long ago.

reply to post by jthomas

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You have to support your own claims. As much as you wish to shift the burden of proof, you will be called on it. Now, demonstrate where the evidence of what happened on 9/11 came from, cashlink.

I have have shown you support for my claims, and my burden of proof, you just hand wave all the evidence as usual. You still have not answers any of my Questions!

You need to do your part of this debate and start answering my QUESTIONS!
Until then, do not bother posting to me, if all you are going to do is ridicule every comment I post.

Reports on the evidence. 2.5 million documents worth studied by the 9/11 Commission, fully documented. A majority of independent forensic scientists, physicists, structural engineers, chemists, and architects on the NIST investigation, with all the data and methodology fully open and transparent.

9/11 Family Members File Petition with NIST
georgewashington.blogspot.com...

Aug 29, 2008
Architects, Engineers, and Scientists Analyze Failings of NIST's WTC 7 Final Report
www.ae911truth.org...

140+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
610+ Engineers and Architects

140+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals

310+ Professors Question 9/11

210+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members

170+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals


www.patriotsquestion911.com...


Scholars and Family Members Submit Request for Correction to 9/11 NIST Report
Gaps and inconsistencies reveal fundamental flaws in NIST's building collapse analyses
www.stj911.com...

Now, cashlink, we're waiting for you to demonstrate to us where the evidence of what happened on 9/11 came from. If you are going to continue to repeat that it all came from the government and therefore the government must defend itself against your claims, than you are required to back up your assertion and document it.

'You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics. You ignore the issues and imply they are old charges as if new information is irrelevant to truth. Your evade the true issue by focusing on a side issue. Why do you refuse to address the issues by use of such disinformation tactics!

Now, cashlink, again, please demonstrate where all of the evidence of what happened on 9/11 came from. Please do not attempt to shift the burden of proof again, cashlink. It only confirms that you evading the facts.

(It only confirms that you evading the facts.) All facts and evidence have been posted in my previous post and in other 911 thread.

You need to take the time to read proven evidence that proves the NIST reports and FEMA reports have been proven false.

reply to post by jthomas

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I have posted an abundance of credible, damning evidence against the official 911 story. Please read all of the information I have posted on ATS regarding 911.

You, on the other hand, have yet to post any credible information refuting my proof, You have never responded to my post with real evidence, only demeaning remarks about me or the people connected to the evidence I have posted.

It’s time to come out from under the umbrella of the Government’s deceptions and lies and let the truth rain on you.

The truth supports itself. Lies can only be supported by other lies.



[edit on 10/31/2008 by cashlink]

Originally posted by cashlink
reply to post by jthomas

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I have posted an abundance of credible, damning evidence against the official 911 story.

There is no "official story." That canard was debunked the moment it surfaced in 2001. You're not helping your case.

You, on the other hand, have yet to post any credible information refuting my proof.

You have no proof. You only repeat debunked claims.

It’s time to come out from under the umbrella of the Government’s deceptions and lies and let the truth rain on you.

What we know about 9/11 did not come from the government. We never needed the government or the media to know what happened on 9/11. But you need your debunked canards so you can pretend that all the evidence you cannot debunk is being "hidden" by the government.

Is it any wonder your 9/11 Denial Movement is still stuck in the mud of its own self-deception after seven years of accomplishing absolutely nothing.

As predicted, you can't back up your own claims, cashlink. You are evading every chance to demonstrate your claims that all of the evidence of what happened on 9/11 came from the "government", instead of the thousands of independent, non-connected sources and eyewitnesses.

The fact that the government was not the source of the evidence and had no ability to control it from the beginning is a no-brainer for critical thinkers. But, for 9/11 Deniers, it is the only way they can foist the canard on newbies that the government has something it is supposed to answer for. It is amazing that you don't realize your canard was debunked in early 2002 and has been ever since.

This just reveals that you are a newbie at this and haven't a clue what your are talking about and never have. It is also the reason your 9/11 Denial Movement has failed to produce any evidence for its claims in the seven years that it has been in existence.

reply to post by jthomas

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Mods Please Take Notice

We have brought forward evidence, refrences, testimony, etc.
You have spewed rhetoric, and bent and twisted people's sentences to make it appear that we were stating things that we weren't.
Instead of attacking the facts, (because you know you can't) you simply state "oh that was debunked years ago" as if that is some form of magic bullet to end all conspiracies.
"that's my story and I'm sticking to it" doesn't work, sorry.

Until you can refute ANYTHING we have brought forward, you have no place here.
Until you can explain how humans stood in holes supposedly hot enough to melt steel, or how the WRONG engines were PLANTED, or how first responders are on film saying there are bombs, or the audio evidence of explosions... Then all you are doing is taking away from what could be a serious discussion by DERAILING it into personal attacks and rhetoric.

Good tactic don't get me wrong, the more time we spend having to debunk your rhetoric, the less time we have to post more evidence.
However these tactics have no place on ATS.

All of your posts are off topic rhetoric, and completely counterproductive.
I have to request that mods intervene at this point.

[edit on 31-10-2008 by ashamedamerican]

reply to post by jthomas

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What we know about 9/11 did not come from the government. We never needed the government or the media to know what happened on 9/11. But you need your debunked canards so you can pretend that all the evidence you cannot debunk is being "hidden" by the government.

Really! If your evidences did not come from the Government, then where did it come from?

You never needed the government and media to know what happened then where are you getting your information from?

But you need your debunked canards so you can pretend that all the evidence you cannot debunk is being "hidden" by the government.

What are you talking about “Pretend”?

Is it any wonder your 9/11 Denial Movement is still stuck in the mud of its own self-deception after seven years of accomplishing absolutely nothing?

If you truly believe anything you have said, you wouldn’t be in this tread.

The Truth Movement is alive and well and not stuck in the mud. We are why NIST, after 7 years, had to come out with a new cover up report.

As predicted, you can't back up your own claims, cashlink. You are evading every chance to demonstrate your claims that all of the evidence of what happened on 9/11 came from the "government", instead of the thousands of independent, non-connected sources and eyewitnesses.

You sound like a broken record. Once again, read my previous posts- all of them, I did the research for you all you have to do is open your eyes.

The fact that the government was not the source of the evidence and had no ability to control it from the beginning is a no-brainer for critical thinkers. But, for 9/11 Deniers, it is the only way they can foist the canard on newbies that the government has something it is supposed to answer for. It is amazing that you don't realize your canard was debunked in early 2002 and has been ever since.

Please provide proof to back your statements with sources, and save your snide remarks for your self.

This just reveals that you are a newbie at this and haven't a clue what your are talking about and never have. It is also the reason your 9/11 Denial Movement has failed to produce any evidence for its claims in the seven years that it has been in existence.

Newbie? Where? I have been here since 4/17 2006.





[edit on 10/31/2008 by cashlink]

[edit on 10/31/2008 by cashlink]

reply to post by jthomas

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Jthomas, why don’t you tell us all what happened on 911 and show your sources that verify they are true.

Since you feel strongly against hearsay evidences as proof, as you have shown in the past, then show us only with scientific proof .

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