Practical Application of Redistribution of Wealth

reply to post by TXMACHINEGUNDLR


this is the exact way that lazy people on welfare act so why is it ok for you to do it? imo that is why lower income people are stuck with low wages while the executives and ceo's keep making more, because the exec's and ceo's would rather cut jobs and wages in order to maintain and inrease their own wages & lifestyle. this is why there is a lop-sided gap between wealthy & poor. the only way spreading the wealth would be o.k would be is if the upper classes were behind it, otherwise you will have people like txmachinegundlr losing their motivation to contribute to the economy.

and the wealth is already being spread out through - welfare, farm subsides, big business tax breaks and subsidies, not to mention the bank bailout. how about spreading more of it by setting up more education and trade schools for lower income people?

Originally posted by guyopitz
lets talk about distribution of wealth.
I make 12,500 anually, no health care, no dental, no car, no car insurance
Whats the bloody point of taxing me?
on the other hand, typical CEO executive businessman makes a million dollars a day by not giving affordable medical or dental benefits to his employees, by paying the minimum wage and firing anyone that doesnt like it because theres a million other grubby jobless needy people who will smile and do your job.
I totally think that these guys should be spreading the wealth before the peasants decide to have an uprising. capische?

cities burn and napalm is the easiest thing in the world to make. It really brings to mind some lyrics from a recent Slipknot song

How many people do you employ? What value do you add to your community? Do you provide people with a way to feed their families?
You think jobs are being sent overseas now? Wait to see what happens if these tax codes are enacted.

Originally posted by TXMACHINEGUNDLR
Very funny thread

I am already good to go if that socialist bastard wins. My money is nice and safe out of this craphole. As with everybody I know. If he wins, I am not working for 4 years. Going to kick back, drink beer, and collect unemployment. Let the middle class pay for my vacation...Oh and my boat is now my biz, and damnit it will be rough hanging out at the lake all week getting sun and "working".

How are you going to quit and collect unemployment? You have to be fired, laid off or your company go out of business. You CAN NOT QUIT and collect....but I dare you to try as part of some freaky ATS social experiment. Good luck with it!

reply to post by Aggie Man


"Except, the poor would feed that money right back into the pockets of the rich by purchasing...you see, it stimulates the economy!"

That is the same fallacious line of thought behind the tax rebates... how much did that help our economy? The belief that consumer spending is the answer to everything is economically ignorant. Saving and investment are the best things for the economy. It allows for far greater production in the future, meaning lower prices, meaning life is easier for the poor. But this nation does not save. Following the example of the government, the average American spends much more than he/she makes. The people that do save and invest, the rich, do less so than they normally would because they lose nearly half of their income to taxes.

So, in conclusion...

I think it all boils down to empathy, and the inability to feel this basic emotion.

The OP illustrates this clearly. A waiter, who took time to carefully service a customer, dilligently fill the water glass, supervise the delivery of a meal, attend to the needs of a client -- that person was completely abused in order to make a point. There was no empathy there. It was like making a cruel wager over the fate of some employee (like in the movie "Trading Places").

If you have empathy, really feel it -- you want to help your fellow man and not abuse him. But, in that case, you may never get wealthy. You will become abused and subjugated by those who don't have much compassion.

It is difficult to become rich and hold on to wealth if you are too worried about other people. That is obvious. But the sad thing is -- even if you are not rich (but just fervently desire wealth) you can still be trapped into a lack of empathy and compassion. Just the DESIRE for wealth can corrupt you completely.

I think this is an amazing and cautionary tale. The responses thread illustrates this over and over again to me.

It must be true. The love of money is at the root of all evil.

where do you people get the idea that socialism breeds laziness?? Point to any single socialist country where laziness is the norm. Countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Switzerland are far more socialist than us, and yet their productivity ratings per capita are MUCH higher than ours. I think i was reading about norway one time and the article was stating that on the average most citizens call off of work 1 day in 5, meaning most often they have a four day work week, without punishment....and yet in those 4 days they do work they are the most productive of any workers in the world. It is not hard work, greed, and ambition that brings out the greatness in humans, it is having time to spend on your LIFE rather than work, and having a job that pays enough for you to persue personal and spiritual growth on your time off. Here in the US we measure success purely based on accumulation of wealth and power to consume. However, i would venture to say that there are plenty "wealthy" and "successful" people who are sorry and horrible humans.

reply to post by pexx421


very good points! quality of life is not all about the materialistic things and money, the sooner we learn that the better off we will all be.

I am a Republican. I own a restaurant. I'm voting for Obama. Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it?

I would rather sacrifice a bit than take 4, maybe 8 more years of the same; and possibly the scariest and most ignorant vice president/more than likely, president of the United States. I can't believe how that alone doesn't scare almost half of the population.

Oh, and yes, Obama will spend billions in the United States. It's about time! I would rather have that (although I believe in small government), rather than spending trillions in unnecessary wars that profit a few corporations. Bring those soldiers home, who were part of my community. Let them dine at my restaurant and not charge $50 of taxpayer's money per Coca Cola to help Halliburton. Enough of the Bush/Clinton dynasty.

I'm not in love with Obama, but in my small world, it's the lesser of two evils that counts. I would rather see new, and although controversial ideas be implemented, than an escalation of where we are. Can you?

I thought the wealth redistribution experiment was really funny. Come on, some humor, please!


[edit on 30-10-2008 by manticore]

Originally posted by pexx421
where do you people get the idea that socialism breeds laziness?? Point to any single socialist country where laziness is the norm. Countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Switzerland are far more socialist than us, and yet their productivity ratings per capita are MUCH higher than ours. I think i was reading about norway one time and the article was stating that on the average most citizens call off of work 1 day in 5, meaning most often they have a four day work week, without punishment....and yet in those 4 days they do work they are the most productive of any workers in the world. It is not hard work, greed, and ambition that brings out the greatness in humans, it is having time to spend on your LIFE rather than work, and having a job that pays enough for you to persue personal and spiritual growth on your time off. Here in the US we measure success purely based on accumulation of wealth and power to consume. However, i would venture to say that there are plenty "wealthy" and "successful" people who are sorry and horrible humans.

Pexx, this is very well said! Kudos for the post! And I invite the author of the OP and all supporters who share the OP's perspective to address Pexx's points directly.

I repeat from my previous post... Just because the management of current "social" policies is poor doesn't mean there isn't a correct, more efficient way. You don't kill the patient because he has a fever! You treat the fever!

And by the way...

We had Democratic policies wedged there in between three Republican presidencies and, as I recall, short of some personal indiscretions, the more "socialist-like" of the four administrations brought us the longest period of economic prosperity in a long time, nevermind the disaster that we are going through now.

So couldn't one argue that, of the four previous administrations, accounting for their core philosophies (Repubs: Top-Down, Dems: Bottom Up), the most successful in terms of economic policy, jobs, overall prosperity, was the Dem years, the more "redistributionist" years?

Well, average American people-style redistributionist anyway, because what's currently happening in these bailouts is, by far, the most SOCIALIST thing we've ever seen; The nerve...redistributing my tax money to save irresponsible corporate billionaires. Wait, no one's really talking about that as socialist... Isn't that exactly what that is? No anger about that? Really? Anyone?

You couple that with Pexx's point about the productivity of other more "socialist" countries, and a compelling case emerges against Top-Down economic philosophy, and one emerges for a more compassionate "people first" approach to government.

Wow...this thread blew up whilst I was asleep.

First and foremost. I am not a cheapskate. I tip well if the service was good, but I guess no one read the part where I said that in my first post.

"Now, if the the service is exceptional, and they go above just getting me what I ask for, if they anticipate my needs, then they get a tip. "

That's a direct quote from my first post. Go on, go back and read it.

Grover - You worry me. You serve a double standard and ride the fence to appeal to the most people...kind of like Obama. You go on in one post talking about the PTB that rule over all of us and decide who we will be presented with for president, then in your signature like you have "The only wrong choice is not voting." That's a little oxymoronic. Am I the only one that saw that?

pexx421- No, I DON'T tip bus boys, cooks, and hosts. I tip waiters (if they are good) I don't give a rats arse that those waiters have to tip the others in tipshare. Not my freakin problem pal. If they don't like having to share their tips, then either get another job, or try to change legislation to get higher wages. Hell, burn the restaurant down, and take away the grubby mofo that owns the places' livelihood. I don't care, but don't expect my undies to get all bent out of shape because I stiffed your crappy service. In all honesty the only reasons that I can see anyone would be a waiter and agree to crap pay is 1. Because it's decently easy to do, 2. Because you've got fairly flexible hours, and D. Because you can make a crapload of money off people that feel they have to tip no matter what. If the job was that #ty no one would do it, so shut up about it!

I bounce at a bar some nights as a second job and get paid $50 dollars a night. The bartenders (who get tips) share them with me. They don't have to and I never ask. My point is, its not expected, nor should it be. I agreed to the pay when I took the job and if I don't like it anymore, I can quit. That's the beauty of freedom.

I'm sorry you have a crap job when you got a bachelors degree, that sucks for you, but get out of the poor area, go someplace that will pay you for your hard work, and quit blaming others for your poverty. You say you stick around there because of family, fine. Understand, THAT'S YOUR DECISION. Not the fault of someone else. Everything is a choice. EVERYTHING. In fact, I will go so far to say that there are two things in life that you have no choice on: Birth, and in some cases death. Everything else is up to you and I will debate you on that fact until you either realize I am right, or you stop talking.

Lastly to you, you are pretty full of yourself if you think NO ONE will respond to your long and drawn out replies. Just because no one hasn't, that doesn't mean no one will. I gotta sleep sometime but I'm your huckleberry, pal and I will shut you down.

My point to everyone else: you only hate the rich because you aren't one of them. I got a newsflash for you, there isn't a damn thing in this world that is stopping you from it. There are plenty of self made milionares out there right freakin now. We have more millionares in this country now than we have ever had and you can be one too. Get off your complaining asses and go make a buck. Don't be a victim, it's a choice.

Lastly, yes, I DO know that earlier I wrote 1. 2, D.

Originally posted by nyk537
reply to post by AshleyD

 

We can't really even be sure it's $250,000 anymore. It was, but then it was $200,000, then the other day Biden said it was $150,000, so who knows? By the time Obama is sworn in it could be $50,000. It's hard to believe anything the man says (either of them).

This is horribly partisan. I get you're a conservative, but let's work to keep up the intellectual honesty in our arguments, shall we? Hyperboles aside.

1. Obama's plan has been posted on his website for a very long time. The numbers haven't changed.
   
2. The Washington Post ran an article yesterday summarizing the same points, along with many other news organizations over the past few months.
   
3. Factcheck.org summarizes the plan in the same way.
   
4. He's said the same thing in every debate.
   

Originally posted by midnightbrigade
There are plenty of self made milionares out there right freakin now. We have more millionares in this country now than we have ever had and you can be one too. Get off your complaining asses and go make a buck. Don't be a victim, it's a choice.

This is all real cute to say; real "Get up off your butt and do something," tough guy kinda stuff, but it shows no bearing on reality. Kinda demonstrates a little bit of ignorance.

Not everyone has the facility to make it big. Not everyone is wired with the skills to make that happen. What of them, Midnight? There's more of those people than you think, although given the aggression in your posts, I fear your answer.

BTW, I would hope that most are jealous of the rich. It breeds motivation. But the "Yer just jealous" argument's a bit childish.

[edit on 30-10-2008 by tommy_boy]

Cool, call me ignorant and childish, yea, that's not school yard.

And I don't believe that I mentioned mentally handicapped folks at all. I have sympathy for those cats. I'm talking about the fully cognizant and aware people. Like someone who has a bachelors degree and only makes $10 an hour. Get your stories straight pal

reply to post by midnightbrigade


I didn't, I said your arguments were ignorant and childish, and they are.

[edit on 30-10-2008 by tommy_boy]

reply to post by midnightbrigade


Wasn't talking about handicapped peeps, pal. Kinda odd you'd jump there unprompted.

But if you think that everyone is capable, either through intelligence or because of social standing, of a million dollar paycheck (or even a modest living), it's a naive point of view. I happen to think that the people that can't "make it" because they're lazy are the minority. You just happen to think they're the majority. I give the American people alot more credit than that. And with the social classes widening, it's much harder to advance.

Of course hard work will pay off. There's no argument there.

[edit on 30-10-2008 by tommy_boy]

well, midnight, its obvious from your post that you are full of anger and intolerance for other people, and make many assumptions of other peoples abilities and levels of work and motivation, and that says much about you. At any rate, from your post, you think that waiters should be satisfied making 2.15 an hour ($17 a shift) and should not expect any more. Tipping is an expected part of eating in a restaurant, and theres a reason people who dont tip are looked down upon. Its a part of etiquette, and if you have no understanding of social etiquette at your age, its because youve chosen to be obtuse in order to save yourself money at someone elses expense. And FYI, waiting is NOT an easy job to do well, it is a high speed and high stress job.

I would also reply that in the economy of the city i live in, high school graduates with no experience only have the option of service industry, minimum wage jobs, and narcotics. Many people here dont have families that can afford to send them to college, or pay their bills while they go, and its interesting to me that many will put these people down for not being able to educate themselves and rise above on these bare subsistence situations.

Now obviously you misunderstand the point behind my explanation of my situation. I wasnt showing my position in order to complain, i was using it to show that the deck is not dealt evenly, and that in areas where there is no regulation upon industry, business owners are primarily motivated by greed, even at the expense of their clients and employees. THIS is the result of unrestrained capitalism, but i dont expect you to understand this as even though you describe the awful results of socialism as engendering laziness and sloth, and promote our capitalist system as promoting independence and strength, you most likely havent read a single book on socialism OR on our capitalist system and have no true understanding of how our system truly works, or of the fact that our country regularly gives massive amounts to small groups of wealthy folk, but hands out a pittance to those truly in need.

I will say that hard work makes it more LIKELY to succeed, but there are plenty people, as i said, that work hard all their lives and still just manage to get by. Like that old, heavy lady talking with Bush that time, and he asked her where she last went on vacation and she laughed and said she had never been on vacation because she works 3 jobs to take care of herself and her 2 children and bush laughed and said "oh, thats wonderful, isnt that just so american". And it IS so american now, sadly. It has been shown that the rate of childbirth goes down pretty directly proportional to how education goes up, so what does it say about our education in the US when teen and single childbirth is growing so fast? I have friends who have children, had them in their teens, and will never be able to get out of their poverty now. I have other friends who were doing well, or at least paying bills and supporting a household, and then one small medical problem and they are now broke for the rest of their lives.

There are many studies pointing out that people born in the upper 50% financially have very high chances of staying in that bracket throughout their lives, however the chances of a person in the lower 30% ever reaching that upper bracket are miniscule. If you TRULY believe its a balanced deck out there and that "anyone can become rich with hard work" then you are quite naive and have never read any of the articles of those "hard working" folk trying to get started in the alternative medicine field who have been maliciously attacked by the FDA and the Pharma companies, or of small farmers across the country now who are being put out of business by the draconian registration practices levied upon them by legislation whereby they have to do paperwork and pay license upon every head of cattle, but the large corporate farms can buy a single license for ALL their cattle, putting a massive burden of cost and paperwork upon the small farmers. Similar situations are happening to small agricultural farmers, the supplement industry, etc. THIS is my point. Big business and big money stack the deck in their favor, and to keep their competition down. Its not a fair system and a good time can NOT be had by all.

reply to post by tommy_boy


I must apologize if you weren't referring to handicapped folks, because I was under the assumption that you understood the meaning of my post. My whole point is that you don't have to live poor and I used the self made millionaires as an example of that. I'm not a millionaire, nor do I wish to be, but I do well for myself and I am happy. It was nothing more than dramatic license to illustrate my point.

Since I assumed you knew that, I then assumed that you were referring to people that weren't "wired with the skills to make that happen" were handicapped. Sorry, I gave you too much credit and that skewed my response. Again I apologize.

Come now. I know a lot of people. I work in a hospital. I grew up in a middle class neighborhood. I went to a few magnet schools and graduated from a good catholic school, and i dont know a single self made millionaire (except one football player.) I know MANY honest, intelligent, hard working individuals, and yet very few who i would consider financially upper or even upper middle class. Now, you may know one or two, i dunno, but my point is if it was "out there for grabs" as many of you say, surely i would know a few. Are we trying to say that the majority of people i meet in life, people who work hard, people who have educations (some) they just all happen to be closet slackers?

reply to post by pexx421


I'm not full of anger generally, only when people start whining and complaining with no plan to change. For (insert deity of your choice here) sake, DID YOU EVEN READ MY POST? I never said waiters should be satisfied with crap pay. I SAID IF THEY DIDN'T LIKE IT, GET A DIFFERENT JOB! How many times do I have to repeat myself for you to get it?

Next, if the economy of the city you live in is #, THEN GET OUT OF THAT CITY! My God, its a simple concept. If they area in which you reside cant fulfill your needs, then leave that area! You cant grow plants in sand, so if your hungry, get off the beach or go fishing. Is it that hard to understand?

As far as me not knowing how the system works, well, I think I seem to know a bit more than you buddy, cause I'm working the system to my advantage and doing well at it. You want the cards to be dealt more fairly? Go live in a communist country where everyone has all the same...oh wait, that doesn't work either does it? Read Animal Farm, or hell, a history book and maybe you'll understand better. Or even better, stay here (if you are in the US) and use your energies to change the system. Don't just whine about it on a damned internet board.