A question for our European and Aussie friends...Do you regret giving up your right to own firearms?

Threads like this make me SO glad to be British and not American. As an 'older' person living in an urban area of Northern England, with areas of high disadvantage I can say hand on heart... that I have NEVER seen a gun other than in a museum. I would argue that all of my friends would say the same.

If someone is shot it is major headlines across the Country, this is because it is not a regular occurance. Thank the Lord that we do not feel the need to carry guns for safety.

As in other threads licences are available for guns for specific purposes, however most people are not even involved in these sports/uses.

It annoyed me enough to reply to this thread the attitude that we are 'missing out' on something not being able to carry guns.... AS IF!!

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by PaddyInf

 

Paddy, you have a very good point about the effectiveness of a line company and their tactics against a small, unprepared villiage.

Here's the thing. I was trained in Special Forces, carried four MOS's (specialties), served in two Ranger companies, and fought in combat while attached to the First Cav.

While I do respect the abilities of a line company, that was never my area of operations. We in SF and the Rangers took on enemy line companies, vastly undermanned, and used every dirty trick in the book, and even came up with a few of our own.

The average US citizen does not have direct or indirect access to members or ex-members of special forces to train them in insurgency ops (which is essentially what would be required of them).

While untrained civilians would not fare well against a well-trained line company, one has to realize that we have far too many people in this country for our military to overwhelm.

Agreed. However this is assuming that the entire populace is willing to drop everything and take up arms against their government, which they aren't. You must remember that it is only a fairly small number of the population that have a mindset to take direct violent action against anyone. We on this forum tend to have fairly extreme viewpoints and mindsets that do not directly represent the population.

Conventional forces while formidable, can be beaten by much smaller forces who maintain their mobility, never spend two meals in the same place, maximize speed, quickness, and anticipate conventional forces' tendencies to follow easily anticipated lines of approach.

The tactics you describe are those that are in use amongst conventional forces in the currenty theatres of operationns. This is no longer the pure remit of SF as it was 5 or 10 years ago. Iraq and Afghanistan have been very steep learning curves, and conventional forces are more capable than ever of facing such adversities. The main constraints are the requirements regarding civilial casualties, which would not be an issue in the situation described.

In Special Forces, we trained others on weapons, tactics, and unit cohesion. Pissed-off civilians with a bit of rudimentary training are quite effective and when fighting for their homeland and more specifically their loved ones, are quite vicious.

Agreed. It wouldn't be a walk over, but it would take organisation on a massive scale to produce a co-ordinated force with a clear and direct mindset to achieve any realiastic goals and could systematically attack the conventional forces from the inside. I just don't think joe bloggs has it in him.

We have a lot of good, armed, patriotic men here. Our military if such a deed were attempted, would walk right into a chainsaw. And the more they would kill, the more dedicated and more furious the resistance.

I just can't help thinking that with todays diluted sense of patriotism and the increased sense of selfishness displayed by the modern westerner, the conflict would be over before it began.

How many in countries who don't have personal firearm capabilities, have in the past or present, relied in part or in whole on the US to help protect not only your borders, but your way of life?...

...We Americans don't only fight for ourselves. We fight for ideals. Even yours.

You only fight for others way of life/ideals etc if they suit your own or if your own boarders are threatened. At the end of the day the US is simply a modern version of the British imperialist regimen that attempts to force its' ideals on countries that don't want it. We're the same in the UK (after all we are the 51st state). However that is a different debate...

I have a politically inncorect theory.

Its because so many criminal gangs from all over the world escape to America including neighbours Mexico and the street wars are ongoing and have been ongoing since the 5 point gang wars of New York. You name it, all the Mafias, all the terrorists all the illegals all the made poorer and all those came or come to America out of desperation and would kill for survival has caused a backlog of social problems that does not even out.

In the UK its a slower process, if we have high crime rates due to settling immigrants, it could be from their rejections in society or their ignorant view of a civilised society and take offence at every liberal view then after a generation this evens out and people get on after all the troubles. But like London now because of all these different societies we have Albanian gangs, Somalian killings, Muslim threats, Jamiacan gang violence and culture, White youths acting like gangs from minorities when they have civilised living standards, Irish terrorist (not so much now) Chinese gangs, football hooligans that are part of the thug culture anyway. The problems increase as the mixtures increases because the river under the bridge does not let the water pass any more. It over flows and spills and the city can not hold everyones probems together. Don't add guns to it please, can you immagine if they sold guns in London like toys?

Immigation does bring its own problems, even in Spain the Spanish don't like the British comming over and boozing their towns up and causing social problems. Sometimes things can not mix but it it has to, then it takes time and it either becomes war or friendship.

Call me politically inccorrect if you like but I speak what I see not with my head in the sand.


[edit on 30-10-2008 by The time lord]

reply to post by PaddyInf

Well argued, Paddy, well argued.

Your point that there aren't many former Special Forces in the civilian population is very true. Hell, there aren't many Special Forces in our military.

While in combat our kill ratio ranged between 100-150:1, those indigent forces we trained had a kill ratio of 30:1 against these enemy line companies and regiments. That's because they were fighting on their terrain, their terms, where they chose, when they chose. For indigent forces, these are very respectable numbers.

And you are absolutely correct that a small percentage of any population will fight. If I may suggest, I would say that only ten percent of a population would step up to fight, and that even in a military organization, only ten percent actually carry the battle. Human nature, I suppose.

I also agree that there is a serious dilution of patriotism throughout the West today. But from my personal observations, that ten percent that would actually step up to do the fighting also share a very strong sense of right and wrong, and a deep feeling of patriotism, and without peer.

I got a chuckle out of your 51st State comment. Not even close! We Americans absolutely love Britain! Ireland! Scotland! It isn't our fault that we are your mutts, given to trouble-making! It is primarily British, Irish, and Scottish blood that runs thickly through our veins. So if we seem stubborn, hard-headed, and ready to fight at the drop of the hat - well, we came by it honestly. The Aussies, trouble makers they are, are just like us - British mutts. And it works well for everyone! I fought beside Aussies. Damned fine fighting men.

U2U coming.

Im just going to say a million times over criminals will always be criminals but Citizens should not give up their rights to own guns for protection in America.
If the gov took all guns away from the citizens the criminals will still have guns no matter what and the same things will still be happening in America.
The media have really got you all riling by showing the same thing over and over again to get you all reacting like this and only seeing America as totally bad and please dont go there scenario, not all of America is bad. But just like America has always made cuba look bad when not all of cuba are bad.
And to all those aussies who are saying oh geez im safe now that everyone sold their guns. We were always still the same and could still walk down the street when they had guns. Open your eyes and think abit more.
I still think Port Arthur was staged thats my take on it.



[edit on 30-10-2008 by meadowfairy]

Originally posted by dooper
reply to post by PaddyInf

 

While in combat our kill ratio ranged between 100-150:1, those indigent forces we trained had a kill ratio of 30:1 against these enemy line companies and regiments. That's because they were fighting on their terrain, their terms, where they chose, when they chose. For indigent forces, these are very respectable numbers.

'
I'll say. Those are seriously impressive numbers for indigent forces.

I know you meant indigenous forces, but I really wish you had used your dictionary and/or thesaurus to guarantee you got the word you actually wanted.


indigent
/indijnt/

• adjective poor; needy.

• noun a needy person.

— DERIVATIVES indigence noun.

— ORIGIN Latin, from indigere ‘to lack’.

as opposed to...

indigenous

native

• noun 1 a person born in a specified place. 2 a local inhabitant. 3 an indigenous animal or plant. 4 dated, offensive a non-white original inhabitant of a country as regarded by European colonists or travellers.

www.askoxford.com...

and Paddy's reply says it all. Where, exactly, am I going to put my hand on a 3RAR Para or 4RAR Commando, let alone an SAS trooper, to teach me how to achieve a kill ratio of 30:1.

And are you assuming, for the sake of the OP's question (regarding defending oneself against the government), that one of those three gentlemen will impart his knowledge to me for the very purpose of me defending myself against him and his colleagues?

I don't think so.

Originally posted by BlackOps719
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

You grossly underestimate the fighting spirit of the American people, just as they will.

Really? If this fighting spirit of the American people is so #ing amazing, why do the American military actually bother to train anyone? Why not just give everyone an afternoon of introduction to some of the bigger toys – you know, the ones civilians aren’t allowed to have - as obviously it’s going to take longer to fly one of those whirlybirds or something and then just let them go fight wars?

Yeah, I know I keep forgetting, even untrained Americans are some kind of supermen imbued with some ‘special’ quality that no one else has. Even their own military and government don't have it, as they apparently lose their ‘fighting spirit’ the minute they either sign-up for government or the military because only civilians have 'fighting spirit'.

Better to die on your feet than to live on your knees. Some of us would prefer death to complete and total enslavement. Maybe you will be happy living as a lap dog to your masters, licking their boots and begging for the crumbs from their table.

See, at the end of the day, this is what it comes down to, the mentality of Rambo and Braveheart DVDs. I hope you do get to die in the hail of bullets that you apparently seem so fitting, right and noble! You almost seem desperate for it!

This is so bizarre. You are so blind in your insistence that you won’t be happy being a ‘lap dog to your masters’ and ‘begging for crumbs from their table’ that you don’t actually see this is the case now. Even with all your fancy guns, you’re as much a lap dog as anyone else, and yes, we’re all lap dogs now. You dance the dance the government wants you to dance. You might not be happy about it, but you do it all the same.

With each passing week, there’s new threads on this forum about ‘how can the American government do this? How do they get away with it?’ regarding some shafting or other; half this board is about the American government screwing the American people in one form or another. What do I see for all this? Threads like this. People typing and talking crap about how they’ll stop the government, how they’re prepared and ready and yet they live through sham elections, phony wars, strange ‘terrorist’ attacks, bogeyman manufacturing, having their bank accounts pillaged forever &c. It’s going to be interesting what that next big thing is in six months that people are hinting at, I wonder whether the American citizenship will ‘fight back’ then too. I’ll happily put money on them not doing anything about it if it’s government connected.

‘Oh, but it’s not bad enough yet!’ Here’s a clue: when it really gets bad, it will be too #ing late. You might pity us poor defenceless Europeans, but the truth of it is that you’re going to be in the same boat as the rest of us: guns or no guns.

Meanwhile the rest of us will do what every generation has done before us when faced with tyranny and oppression at the hands of a rogue state. We will revolt and we will fight back with any means necessary. Win or lose, death is better than the alternative.

Every generation? Put the flag down for a second and answer me this, is this the America that’s very selective about which rogue states they take on anyway? I mean, America doesn’t have a reputation for being particularly altruistic despite what many Americans think; American involvement usually comes with a price tag. Whether it’s WWII or Iraq, you must be aware of history and honest enough to admit this, surely?

Unless you’re talking about your own state, America, of course. The one where Americans don’t really revolt against tyranny and oppression every generation at all. Or rather they did a couple of hundred years ago (‘oh noes! Taxes!’). Now unless China have been putting really weird stuff in your food for a long time and you've become embalmed, that doesn’t really account for every generation. Maybe you’re as obsessed with Highlander DVDs as you appear to be with Braveheart and its ilk of course and your generation is very, very old.

Sure there will be many who will gladly lay down and submit to their overlords, just as many Americans were loyalists to the King of England. There will be many Benedict Arnolds in the ranks, but there will also be many Patrick Henry's and Thomas Jeffersons. People who are willing to fight and die for a cause more noble and more important than themselves.

I’m welling-up here. Truly beautiful. Also a little sad, because, with all due respect, you sound brainwashed. You sound like you’ve been brainwashed by the very propaganda that you believe you can see through and fight against.

So you’re admitting there’s going to be “many Benedict Arnolds”? So that that magic 300,000,000 figure is a nonsense then? And that’s before the government starts thinning the resistance out?

Im not here to try and change your mind or anyone elses,

This particularly sentence has given me a chuckle and set me up for the rest of the day, thanks. I’m not entirely sure what you set out to do with this thread at all. I don’t think you were particularly interested in what your ‘European and Aussie friends’ had to say on this issue. You’ve read the many other threads directly related to this topic, so why did you think this would be any different?

Your thread was a set-up from the start. You use pathetic and ridiculous terms like “jealousy” and “sour grapes” which, if nothing else, speaks volumes of the arrogance that runs through many of these threads.

The best bit is you put me on your ‘foe’ list during this thread. Hahahah! So a European ‘friend’ answers your questions, you then don’t like the answers and they get put on your ‘foe’ list? Hahaha! Classic. Why don’t you put your government on your ‘foe’ list too! That will really show them! Go on, fight back!

I know which side I am on. Perhaps you would fall into the group who would say "take away my rights but feed and clothe me". Well that to me is a defeatist attitude and is not within my protocol to believe that way.

It was ascertained fairly early on this thread that attitudes to gun ownership is, to a large extent, a cultural thing. I like the way that it’s now come down to “defeatist attitude”.

Best of luck to you and your countrymen, hopefully everyone in the UK doesnt subscribe to the same hopeless belief system. If so then your nation is truly in shambles and simply a well fed chicken waiting to be plucked.

No, you’ll be glad to know that I’m sure there’s people here that are equally convinced they can take on a better trained opponent who is armed ‘better’ weapons. I like the “hopeless belief system” comment because that really just about sums up the attitude that has been the undercurrent for this thread from the start.

Here in Australia its pretty easy to get a fire arms license once you reach the required age. Crime isnt "too bad" here in Sydney but i honestly dont think that making fire arms legal to anyone would help in any way.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Yep, that's the same thing King Goerge thought 232 years ago. Us pitiful Americans have no idea how to fight.
Here in America, if you don't like guns, you don't have to buy any. The point is, you guys across the pond have allowed decades of media and government brainwashing to lose your most basic, human right to defend yourselves.
Guns are used in America to murder somewhere in the range of 15k per year. Our population is 300 million. Guns are used to STOP crime about 4 million times a year. I'll leave you to do the percentage math.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


BTW,going gun shopping today, anything you want?

Originally posted by CreeWolf
reply to post by BlackOps719

 

Imagine what would have happened if those crazy indians had guns. I mean, every one of them. And, every European!

I think everyone should be REQUIRED to carry a gun. A little education, and current laws still in place, would YOU try to mug someone probably carrying a gun? Would you try to rob them if you thought they had a gun stashed away for defense?

I feel sorry for Brits. Hundreds of years of tradition went down the toilet with no more Fox hunts. Australia, how's that kangaroo population working out for ya?

Hello,i'm sorry your angry but we never (or should I say the upper classes)hunted foxes with guns but with hounds and members of the hunt on horseback.Same for stags.The morally repuganat 'sport' of fox hunting still continues despite being made illegal.

Originally posted by givemeliberty or beer
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

BTW,going gun shopping today, anything you want?

mmm yes,some sushi,a facepack,a copy of Heat magazine,some chocs and some Elizabeth Arden 8 hour cream,the most powerful beauty product in the world -do you feel lucky punk?

Just having a laugh,I would'nt know where to start.Well,i'm a small lady so i could'nt carry very heavy or powerful weapons although I've always wanted a go on one of those rocket propelled grenades-they look like fun.

Hi

Living in The Netherlands I can tell you here it's so easy to get a gun if needed. For example I live in Venlo I just have to go to Antwerpen around 90 km to buy a gun for around 200€ offcourse it's not legal.

The thing is nobody wants a gun even if you would give them as a gift for free when you open a bank account for example

Guns are for police/army and wannabe criminals because smart criminal wont use firearms in Europe because they're sentence if caught would be many times higher. Thats why they use so many knives in the UK instead of guns.

BR
PPL

Originally posted by givemeliberty or beer
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Yep, that's the same thing King Goerge thought 232 years ago. Us pitiful Americans have no idea how to fight.

Yes, that's right. Because obviously today's military is really comparable to that of King George's! How much of the thread did you read before you come up with that?

Here in America, if you don't like guns, you don't have to buy any.

Fancy that! I wasn't aware that you could buy guns at all in America. When did that come about? Have you told the rest of the world? Here's a suggestion, why not find a way of dropping that little factoid into half the threads on this board? You might drop lucky and find someone who hasn't been made aware of America's right to bear arms a million times!

The point is, you guys across the pond have allowed decades of media and government brainwashing to lose your most basic, human right to defend yourselves.

Guns are used in America to murder somewhere in the range of 15k per year. Our population is 300 million. Guns are used to STOP crime about 4 million times a year. I'll leave you to do the percentage math.

And how many times are they used to stop your government #ting on you? I'll leave you to do the percentage math.

reply to post by HowlrunnerIV


Thank you for the correction. My apologies, and I hope it didn't ruin the post for you. It was late, I was tired, and I was in a hurry, typing rather quickly. Come to think of it, those folks were also kind of needy, definitely poor, and certainly frustrated!

You would be surprised at who the folks around you truly are, what their backgrounds are, and where they've been. Our problem is, that we are usually reluctant to find out.

I was sitting in a hospital waiting room, an elderly gentleman came in, and to find out, he was one of the Americans who joined the Canadian Air Force, simply to fly in combat in Britain in the early days of the war. Flying Spitfires! A very interesting gentleman to be sure.

I've been the keynote speaker at various special operations functions, and was surprised to look into the audience, see someone I already knew, yet didn't know they had a background in special operations. It just wasn't something we had ever talked about.

You just never know who that bloke really is that is quietly sitting there enjoying his tea or coffee. And the kicker? The most dangerous men I've ever seen are always the most unassuming men, quiet, with an easy manner. Yet they transform instantly into tigers when the need arises. I still shake my head at that.

I wouldn't worry too much about finding appropriate teachers if the time, God forbid, ever comes. It will probably be someone you already know, someone who has a great daimon, someone with the monster, but a good man who until required, didn't even know he had it himself. And for these men, they cannot be defeated. I know it sounds like BS, but it is true nonetheless.

So,-you have the right to own firearms in contrast to us Europeeans. But, it may well be the ONLY right you have left, maybe this is why you hold on to it with such enthusiasm, because there is a lot of rights you DON'T have.
The right to proper healthcare for ALL citizens paid by the tax bill.
The right to a proper welfare system for ALL citizens paid by the tax bill.
The right to fair elections (How did Bush win his election?)
The right to see your tax-money spendt on something else than war.

Viewed from the outside your american dream appears more like a nightmare.

Im very happy knowing that any idiot out there wont have easy access to a gun, so when he decides he doesnt like his life anymore, he wont start shooting and bring 20 people down with him.

I dont want people I meet every day to have guns because I dont trust them with it.

We have had shootings here in Sweden as well, but they are very rare. There is no need for criminals to bring a gun to rob someone, a knife is enough, simply because nobody carries guns. If everybody had handguns, the criminal would bring a uzi instead. And so on. It makes things worse.

But like I said, my primary reason for not wanting free guns is because I dont trust most people enough with the responsibility to carry one. In the states, kids shoot eachother over nothing. I dont want that here.


[edit on 31-10-2008 by Copernicus]

reply to post by norskie


Norskie, we in the US don't want a welfare system. We don't want universal healthcare. In this country, we aren't cattle to be herded in this direction and that. We don't like being told where to go, and what to do. We don't believe that others will make the best decisions for us as individuals. We believe very strongly in personal responsibility. And personal opportunity.

And yes, we do spend a lot on war and the preparation for war.

In the First World War, we really, really wanted to stay out of it. We were happily minding our own business, enjoying the fruits of a long term period of peace. But we got dragged into it. "The war to end all wars."

Just a generation later, war broke out again in Europe and the East. Again, we wanted as a nation to stay out of it. We didn't want to get involved in that one either, but once again, we were dragged into it through no fault of our own.

You may not like the wars the US gets involved in, but I find most Europeans are highly selective in the wars they choose to criticize us for.

Yes, we spend a lot on war and the preparation for war. But concern yourself not. We didn't send you the bill.

In fact, we've never sent anyone the bill.

reply to post by ZindoDoone


lol we had something like that here in new zealand but the man was training his you people how to use guns they had a camp out in the bush but th PIG's ended up seizing all his weapons and all the people who attended the camp and since that wasnt enough for them they ended up searching all the houses in that whole area even school buses lmao what idiots and then they just went stupid and started searching the whole north island"PATHETIC"