A question for our European and Aussie friends...Do you regret giving up your right to own firearms?

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
America has a lot of toys. Can the American people actually buy any of these toys themselves. I mean not necessarily something too exotic or prohibitively expensive but something than could, if necessary, do some serious damage against American forces, like a old but working tank with loads of boomtastic ammo. How about fixing up a small private plane with guns and the capability to drop bombs and stuff?
[edit on 28-10-2008 by Merriman Weir]

2 points:

1. The United States military is comprised of United States citizens.

2. In the case of armed revolt, think "guerrilla warfare". Research the experiences of the Soviet military and United States military in Afghanistan.

Belief is a powerful weapon.

The most dangerous weapon in the world is a motivated person with a rifle.

Originally posted by Symbiote

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
America has a lot of toys. Can the American people actually buy any of these toys themselves. I mean not necessarily something too exotic or prohibitively expensive but something than could, if necessary, do some serious damage against American forces, like a old but working tank with loads of boomtastic ammo. How about fixing up a small private plane with guns and the capability to drop bombs and stuff?
[edit on 28-10-2008 by Merriman Weir]

2 points:

1. The United States military is comprised of United States citizens.

That's funny. I thought half the members of 'the NWO/International Banking Conspiracy/Government orchestrating '9-11'/Government selling Americans out to Aliens/Government is chemtrailing/pick any thread on this board' were similarly comprised of United States citizens. I guess, American citizens never do bad things against other American citizens. My mistake, I must be thinking of another America.

2. In the case of armed revolt, think "guerrilla warfare". Research the experiences of the Soviet military and United States military in Afghanistan.

Research this thread for my comments on Afghanistan and similar conflicts.

reply to post by BlackOps719


The right to own firearms is both the right to defend yourself and to need to defend yourself. Some cultures would rather not have the right to need to defend yourself, and so are willing to not allow everyone to own handguns and high-powered semi-automatic rifles. I guess they trust their police enough to protect them. Otherwise, if you have to protect yourself, you can never ever get drunk or otherwise be incapacitated, otherwise you leave yourself open to attack. The police are never drunk, always trained, and always have mental screening for possible psychiatric illnesses that would compromise their ability to protect people.

It's just a different way of looking at the same thing - protection. Europeans and Aussies want professional people they trust to look after themselves, freeing them from having to do so themselves, while simultaneously lowering the risk of them ever being attacked with guns.

reply to post by Sonya610


Well, here in Norway, there are not alot of people who own a handgun, the people who has veapons are mostly hunters.


To the OP: I live in the main capital of Norway, whit the crime that follows with that, but I dont feel unsecure. I wold be more conserned if the "average joe" on the street owned a veapon.

Not even the police are armed here, only if they are called out on missions with high danger. The police you see on the streets are not armed.

There are so many crazy people out there, and I dont think giving them guns are the smartest thing to do. So Im glad the laws are as they are over here!

[edit on 29-10-2008 by Anom3]

reply to post by andy1033


I would like everyone to look at what has been going on for a long time in the African states. It's the unarmed populace that is getting run over and slaughtered and raped by governments, terrorists and police. At least for now in the US I still have the right to bear arms and protect myself and my family from this kind of abuse and injustice. If someone comes in your house and has a gun and you don't have one you and your family will do ANYTHING they tell you to do and then you will probably be killed anyway. I prefer to be able to fight back. You can't bring a knife or a spear or a bow to a gun fight and expect to live very long.

reply to post by BlackOps719

Here in the UK you can only hold a shotgun with a license & they are not easy to get. Get caught with a firearm or shotgun without license then its a 5 yr sentence. We didn't give up the right to bear arms, that was done for us and no amount of protesting would have stopped it i'm afraid!

reply to post by BlackOps719


Errr Black Ops,

It wasn't a case of 'giving up' our firearms, it was more of a case of the tyrants running the lunatic asylumn in Parliament overlording and criminalising the right to defend ourselves with a firearm (in this case a pistol).
They were probably waiting for a 'Dunblaine' for this very reason. The fact it was the tories who pushed the ban beggars belief even to this day.!
We, the people had no say in the matter. Our gun clubs, good areas for intelligent members of the community to get together were closed down, we lost our British olympic pistol squad (or rather it now has to train in France) and the argument that it would make it more difficult for criminals to get hold of firearms was some of the biggest lies ever told.
I notice in countries like France and Finland gun laws aren't banned outright when there's a massacre, that tells you something about the UK IMO.

I can't speak for the Aussies but I can confirm the massacre that prompted the ban there was very fishy and a book I read pointed a lot of evidence to a black-op gone wrong and missing video footage.

Finally the poster who said that it can take 20 minutes for a cop car to get to a remote location in America, well it can take easily that in the UK as well mate. I'm talking a large town you're lucky if you get a sub 20 minute response time.
Police - Reactive force
Armed citizen - Proactive force

[edit on 29-10-2008 by WatchRider]

I live in Australia and yes gun laws here are tight. No autos except for government use and same with pump action rifles as well.

I used to live in the Philippines and loved to play with bb guns as a kid. On my trip there last year i played in some wargame matches with my cousins husband and i loved it. I wanted to buy a bb gun online to be shipped here in Aus but guess what?! bb guns are banned here too! I used to do Aus army cadets and have fired the steyr. They taught me a lot about gun safety and handling and you can apply the same to bb guns. It does have an educational purpose without the lethality.

Not to worry though there is a peitition to bring back the sport and a possible bill will be passed this december to allow airsoft(not bb) back in the country(with permits and licensing of course). So please visit the link below and fill out the petition to help out your fellow aussie mate here.

your help would be muchly appreciated. cheers

www.petitiononline.com/bbgunaus/petition.htm

I'm in Oz and shortly prior to the law changes I possessed a fair collection of firearms (rifles, shotguns but no handguns). The change in the law plus my existing membership in the Field & Game Association and regular attendance at organized skeet & trap shooting comps meant I was only obliged to hand in one of my weapons which was a semi-automatic 7.62mm rifle but all the other weapons I could have kept if I went to the expense of installing safes for locking them & ammo away securely and separately, regular inspections etc etc.

I chose to hand them all over and I don't really miss them. I wouldn't want to live in a society where I needed firearms to feel safe - for me it was a sport well suited to the wilderness I lived in back then but I now live in a suburban environment. I sometimes would like to have the old air rifle for encouraging nuisance animals to go make their presence felt elsewhere but I can assure you all that there's still life after being a gun-owner.

Bottom line (for Oz) is we did not lose, or give up, the right to own firearms. The conditions for owning firearms have been made much stricter with the total ban on self-loading weapons including pump action shotguns. To retain ownership of bolt action rifles, skeet guns etc requires a shooter's license, background character check and membership of a recognized shooting club with a legal venue for events plus compliance with the regulations for storage of the weapons. 'Home defense' is not a valid reason for owning a machine gun

[edit on 29/10/2008 by Pilgrum]

In my experience, it greatly shocks a lot of people over here in the UK that some Americans are so vehement about their right to gun ownership.

Really, the gun is one of the most dispicable and disgusting expressions of human ingenuity and self-hatred. The same can be said for any weapon of course.

Guns only have one use, and that is to harm and kill. There's nothing patriotic or honourable about owning and using one, it's a thoroughly reprehensible character trait.

Originally posted by meadowfairy . . . Im Australian and i agree to the right to bare arms. Simply because i have researched long and hard and listened to both sides.

I'm Australian too, and the only thing preventing me from baring arms out of doors is the massive hole in the ozone layer. In Melbourne guns don't kill people, the sun does.

The media has played it very good in Australia to get people to give up arms. What people here only know is guns are bad that is all there is too it. They dont understand about protecting your family and assets.

I've been able to protect my family just fine without owning a gun, because the burglars and other trouble-makers I've encountered have not had guns either.

I believe the Port Arthur massacre was set up. My friend is a top shooter and he said only a professional could have killed people in perfect alignment like that, that not even he thinks he can do it that good.

Agreed. They blamed it all onto one young guy with Aspergers. Aspies tend to be gentle people with nerdy pursuits. Their difficulty in making eye-contact makes them appear guilty whenever they are accused of something, and their difficulties in communicating can make them unable to speak up for themselves. As with the Virginia Tech shootings the speed and accuracy in shooting fleeing/hiding people was unlikely for one untrained shooter.

There has been more gun shooting and guns on the blackmarket here in Australia since right to bare arms have been taken away. And who most likely operates the black market? There have been more gun shootings on the news lately then there ever was when we had a right to bare arms. When you try to deprive thugs of sometthing they only become more agressive.

Perhaps you should try watching Australian telly instead of CNN.
In 2006, in Australia, you were nearly twice as likely to die from a fall as to die from violence. Only 1 of every thousand deaths was violence related.

As for death by assault with a firearm, in 2006 in Australia 21 people were killed.
Australian Bureau of Statistics

Australia has the highest rate of theft in the world.

Could you cite a reference for this?

There was almost a shooting the other day here on the news.

"There was almost a shooting the other day here on the news."

You nearly made me wet myself, I laughed so hard.
Yes, I agree this is typical of the worst violence we have in Australia.

It will be evidently hard to ever get rid of guns so people who think they are safe are really living in a fantasy world.

There has never been a guarantee of saftey for living things. Instead, we have a guarantee that we are all going to die - someday.
Meantine it's worth working toward a safe community that has the fewest risks for the average law-abiding citizen.

I can walk alone, anywhere in Victoria at any time of the night, in reasonable safety. Anyone who wants to attack me has to get close enough with his knife for my can of mace to disable him. However I have never, in 30 years of being a night wanderer, (I love exploring at night,) had to use even that. Yes, someday someone might decide to shoot me, but the criminal can shoot an armed person before they are seen anyway, so packing is not always helpful. And as I've pointed out, in Australia, I'm more likely to die from slipping over than getting shot.

reply to post by deathhasnosound


and you are the best shooter right? i wonder how many other americans think they are.

welcome to britian. uk.youtube.com...

I just wanted to say some of us do shoot purely for fun and sport. I live in a rural area and like to target shoot and compete. I don't hunt and with almost zero crime in my neck of the woods I still own handguns, AR's, pellet guns, blowguns, bows etc because i enjoy striving for accuracy, tuning, practicing and the intense focus on the activity and the safety aspect. I have never shot anything but cardboard and paper, my guns take me about 1/2 an hour to assemble because I have to get the ammo from one place and unlock it, gun from another place and unlock it 3 times, and finally get my magazines and unlock and load them. I am a liberal who is going to vote Obama, don't fear criminals or my government. Shooting is just one of my many hobbies. Oh, everytime I bought a gun they called the FBI and did a background check. Every gun sale should be required to do this and gun shows should be just that shows not sales. Also a mandatory cooling off period of one week would be fine with me. Safety training as a one time thing would be great. I used to ride road bikes but find it too dangerous with drunks, very old people, and text messaging teens on the roads. Cyclists get killed all the time and drivers are off scot-free. In my case I feel riding a bike is more dangerous to my well being than recreational shooting if done right. Now I stick to the mtn bike and singletrack. gun crime is a social issue, too much poverty, lack of social services, untreated mental illness, lack of law enforcement etc.

I am a big hunter. Its my favorite past-time, but at the same time I would be in favor of more stringent gun laws here in the U.S. For instance; I would be in favor of banning all assault weapons and hand guns. I would also like to see a limit placed on number of rounds a gun can hold at no more than 3. In fact possibly even single shot weapons only. I think this would get alot of the anti-gun activists off our backs and prove we only want our guns for hunting and not violence. I consider myself a law obiding citizen and if our govt. passed laws banning a certain weapon, I would do the lawful thing and turn it in.

In the UK we're trying to get knives off the streets. Our constitution works fine and we don't need to be able to kill each other in a split second. If you want violence join a football firm, but you don't need knives or guns for that.

reply to post by The Oak


I was about to call BS on this but I suppose if you can be a President and not be concerned with the Constitution or be a cop and not know a damn thing about the law you can probably be a hunter and not care about guns.

I waggle my finger you general direction in shame sir. Shame.

Originally posted by BlackOps719
I see a lot of negative name calling and sarcastic critical responses toward this choice and it often baffles me.

This is not an attempt to bait or anger any of our brothers and sisters from across the pond, merely a curiosity that I have had for a while now. Is it that you folks are jealous that Americans are still able to enjoy this right that has been stripped away from you by your own governments? Is it sour grapes, or do you all really feel such strong anti-gun sentiments?

I fear that things may end poorly for a lot of you and I genuinely feel concern for your basic abilities to survive in a hostile and rapidly declining and violent world.
[edit on 10/28/08 by BlackOps719]

Coincidentally I joined a meeting today with people from alle over the world and they were discussing cutural differences. And how they often diffuse discussions. "Guns" means something different for an average US citizen then it does for an European. It is part of your culture as it grew out of first citizens that moved from all over the world who wanted to be free and independend. The right to own a gun and defend yourself with it is a essential part of htat history.
In Europe you may own a gun in certain curcumstances, but it is vastly more stringent in giving eprmist for it.

People don't experience this as "a right that has been stripped from them". It is even funny when you say that. Her people who own guns are generally seen as criminals or policemen. Some citizens, mostly farmers may own a gun or rifle, but not many.

So no I don't think people are jealous. I'm not. And resentment? A gun is just a gun, but figures say that countries with more guns produce more gun-victims, which is kind of logical. The first time I drove through the states and a pick up truck drove past me and I saw a rifle in the back it kind of scared me at first, but i became used to it. I definitely feel safer in Europe than during vacations in the US. Except in your beautiful natural parks, where a bear visited my tent, and I was a littel scared of being mauled. If that happens it happens, I won't shoot down a bear, if I could.


Now back to the crisissituation. I really do not think guns will help US citizens in this situation. Who do want to shoot? Looters? Or officials? Well that'll give a good excuse to eradicate some people. Good luck with that. It will be a bloodbath.

I sure will give up on society if we cannot just talk anymore. I think the paranoia (I wittness on ATS) against people who work with or for the government is just not our thing. But I am speaking for myself of course.

This is what happens in the UK if you have a gun

Man who brandished gun at children shot by police

They seem to shoot first ask questions later

This farmer in the UK used a gun to defend his property

Tony Martin

First off, it's much easier to kill someone with an axe than with a gun. Secondly.

When referring to the holocaust and the killing of soo many jews, people often ask why they would let themselves be carted off to concentration camps and willingly march to the ovens.....

It is the mentality that is being espoused here that allowed for that. The idea that people should give up all rights to protecting themselves and let the government handle it.

Let's say that the government does have your best interests at heart and wants to protect you. Do you think that they can?

Do you think that police protect you?

If you do, you are living in a fantasy land.

Police don't and can't protect you. Besides which, all they are taught to do anymore is protect themself.

It used to be a sworn oath to protect and serve the populace and they were to treat all suspects as innocent until proven guilty. Now they are taught to treat all people as potential suspects and guilty until proven innocent, they are taught to put their own safety above that of the populace and if there are mass riots, they can't protect themselves let alone anyone else.

This was proven during the rodney King riots of Los Angeles.

You think if things continue to degrade that any food you might have, and any clean water you might have are going to be protected by the government?

You'll be lucky if the government doesn't take it from you, and if the government doesn't and you don't have the means to protect it yourself, then someone WILL take it from you.

People are either unaware of the reality of life or have become complacent with modern society. that is obvious in allowing unconstitutional laws to be passed like the patriot act. that was only allowed to pass because fear mongering by the power elite WORKED.

And you want us to give up our constitutional right to bear arms.

You're smoking crack if you think that all Americans will ever give up their right to bear arms. As is often stated, "you'll have to pry my gun from my cold lifeless fingers".

The foudning fathers of this Nation foresaw the corruption rampant in other nations and knew it was likely to occur here as well, That was the sole reason for the second amendment and the statement that if this government should fail to be governed for the people and by the people that it is the duty of its citizens to stand up and start over.

Jaden