What do you think of this "Theory"??

On the contrary, I think the path of perfection should be of the utmost importance to each and every one of us--if the surgeon seeks to perfect his surgery, if the congressman seeks to perfect his nation, if the pizza delivery boy seeks to perfect and minimize the time it takes to get a pizza to your house--each of these should be things sought after.

The problem comes from the way in which we go about such a desire. And that, my friend, is a very difficult moral predicament.

I think you are blaming the gun for the murder, so to speak. Blaming some of our problems, such as Hitler and the Holocaust, on the desire for perfection instead of blaming the actions themselves. A desire, in my sincere opinion, is never wrong/right, good/bad. It is the way in which we go about attempting to satisfy these desires that is ultimately wrong/right, good/bad. Hence, a moral and ethical battle between varying opinions.

Edit to add: In response to some previous posts about perfection itself, I consider it a 100% unachievable goal by anything, ever (unless you consider a 'source' or 'God' or whatnot to be the original, the perfect thing). Perfection means an inability to be better in a particular aspect. By saying something cannot be better, in anything, is like saying you can reach infinity. It just cannot be done.

[edit on 28-10-2008 by Alexander_Supertramp]

reply to post by jitombe


You are pretty much summing up what I am meaning.

We are not perfect so people with certain skills hoard the board with so called perfect skills as society deems but other skills are neglected and sometimes a lot of people never realise these skills because they are not a recognised part of society.

To give a tiny insight to this I often think of this.... a lot of people at some point in their lives will say I want to make a mark on society. Years later they may end up laying slabs in a car park or emptying bins for a living. The difference is that although we almost all think that at some point we want to make a difference few have the focus to make the difference or is it just that we do not notice the difference.

Both could be seen as skills but both are not noticed as skills as they cannot make a test for it to say you have concentration or ambition etc.

reply to post by Alexander_Supertramp


I used an extreme example but to use a lesser way to explain destruction.

In persuit of perfection as society has it we should have a job, pay taxes and have a family. These are the traditional norms (still perfections we strive for).

A lot of people for various reasons never get even one of them and they fell a lot of different emotions due to this. Anger, frustrations, hate etc.

I am basically saying that the view we have today is that of a labelled society where we are this or that.

It cannot be true for the reasons we exist.

I apologise for using the extremes of this but both are true and I hope you see why.

This does of course tie into the ying and yang, good and evil etc but I am saying that there is a scientific reason for this that I refered to when speaking of how we are all 99.9% similar but take that over 9 billion + people then that is a massive gap which means we have a long way to go in terms of perfection.

I also wonder if some individuals think that population reduction would correct this and that is just another example of how wrong we can be.

Pretty fascinating though as to how deep it can go though?

[edit on 28-10-2008 by XXXN3O]

reply to post by XXXN3O


No, not really.

It is true, about clones, however, all regularly created babies are all imperfect mutants. One of the main problems with cloning so far is that it doesn't reduce the telomere chain damage that comes with age. Fix that, and clones probably wouldn't run into so many problems. Other problems are getting the cloned nucleus to act like a stem cell, instead of the cell it came from, and some other problems that might be related that happen during development. The point is, the clone will be different than the original, and a clone of the clone will be less like the original, but the differences aren't necessarily going to be any worse than the mutations found in natural born children. The major problems with cloning today are problems with the technique used, not with the actual fundamental concept.

With software, that's not true. Copies and copies of copies are all 100% accurate. Any less and it will fail. A few CDs are bound to be outside accepable tolerances, but the vast majority of all CDs distributed are 100% accurate to what the compiler spat out on the developer's end. Bugs aren't a result of imperfect copying, they are a result of imperfect programming. And that imperfect programming isn't imperfect due to leftover variables. it's because of any number of things like not allocating a large enough space in memory to hold a certain number, or accidentally looking for a number at the wrong address, or accidentally creating a certain set of conditions that when met result in an infinite loop. Software is imperfect because it's written by people.

I really don't see how your theory follows from the premises outlined. People seek perfection, but are certainly never going to get there, but the pursuit of it certainly isn't harmful except where it becomes an unhealthy obsession. Objects and processes will be improved until improvements are economically infeasible.

For intangibles, perfection isn't even very meaningful. Beauty, fun, emotion? How would you go about being perfectly emotional? Would that mean being perfectly empathetic; able to understand exactly how everyone else feels, and weigh that against your own feelings?

Emotion itself isn't an imperfection, unlike what you might hear in a Saturday morning cartoon featuring some evil robot. I know that other people are more able to feel emotion than I, and I suspect that there are other people *better* at feeling emotion than others. I couldn't begin to try and qualify that though.

Perfection has so much more meaning when it comes to a purely scientific context. A perfect bearing is frictionless. A perfect heat pump operates at Carnot efficiency. It can all be put in numbers and agreed upon. Intangibles don't work that way, and, indeed, can't. Any two people will have different ideals of beauty, among other things. There will be significant overlap, but there will be slight differences between the preferences of each person.

I'd say that perfection is subjective, and it's pursuit is generally good for society and the individual, as long as it isn't taken too seriously. IE, I wouldn't recommend genocide or extensive, ill-advised body modification surgery, but if you had to pick one, I'd recommend the latter.

I don't think that the idea of perfect DNA is meaningful. It's a molecule. A very complicated molecule that in our case, contains the information to grow a human being, and most of it is somewhat unimportant by itself while still playing an important role in the expression of the more important parts. By some standards, it would be more perfect if it was a repeating sequence instead of a largely jumbled mess that just happens to code for a person. As it can be crystallized, perhaps it'd be more perfect if it were arranged as a crystal. Or perhaps it'd be more perfect if it wasn't wrapped up in a giant knot of a chromosome. These patterns, however, fall short because they wouldn't result in something alive. The closest you're going to get is DNA that's free of major errors that would cause genetic illnesses, while coding for somebody who stands a decent chance of being a decent person.

reply to post by mdiinican


Thanks for the challenging reply.

You said, "With software, that's not true. Copies and copies of copies are all 100% accurate. Any less and it will fail. A few CDs are bound to be outside accepable tolerances, but the vast majority of all CDs distributed are 100% accurate to what the compiler spat out on the developer's end. Bugs aren't a result of imperfect copying, they are a result of imperfect programming. And that imperfect programming isn't imperfect due to leftover variables. it's because of any number of things like not allocating a large enough space in memory to hold a certain number, or accidentally looking for a number at the wrong address, or accidentally creating a certain set of conditions that when met result in an infinite loop. Software is imperfect because it's written by people."

I said before and I will say again, anything created by a human is imperfect as we are not perfect but can of course be improved. If you add the copying errors, the programming errors and the leftover variables you will undoubtedly get imperfections which are not 100% despite what you say in that the vast majority will be 100% accurate the reality is that not everything will be perfect here especially in mass production.

You sort of proved this by what you said "For intangibles, perfection isn't even very meaningful. Beauty, fun, emotion? How would you go about being perfectly emotional? Would that mean being perfectly empathetic; able to understand exactly how everyone else feels, and weigh that against your own feelings?"

Intangibles are goods but yes can be emotions if you want to categorise them into intangibles then the same rules apply. Made by man and imperfect therefore subject to this rule. Creating exactly what I am trying to get across.

When you speak of friction etc I still think that is beyond what I am trying to state as earth has gravity so it would be stupid to go into a space argument for that but I am more speaking in terms of who we are and what we create. You do however state "Any two people will have different ideals of beauty, among other things. There will be significant overlap, but there will be slight differences between the preferences of each person." I agree as this also applies to the fact we are not perfect and I do not know what perfection is but I still firmly believe that the persuit of it as we are in society today will lead to destruction.

I do not fully think you have grasped what I am saying and would rather you ask a few questions than try and go on the defensive.

Flip of the coin can go either way so of course I may need to take my own advice which I have tried to do with your argument but I think you need to explain what you mean more as what you say seems to be a different way of wording what I am stating.

Cheers

reply to post by XXXN3O


i`m just now signing into this post i`ve truly enjoyed the open mindedness of those who are already here ,this is quite unique as to those on some of the other sites here.
PERFECTION-stems from the word perfect,, ie-complete or finished-tense denoting a complete act-or to finish and make skillful -perfect`able-or capable of becoming perfect-perfection- a state of being perfect perfectus done thoroughly.
this is mans meaning to the word of his that he calls perfection ,does he truly have any idea as to the conceptual concepts behind the truest meaning of this word or is it just another word and meaning that he made up to suit himself for his own ideal whim and fancy.
it seems that the only part of the definition of the word that mankind learned was PERFECTUS done thoroughly as everything that he was told not to do he did- dont kill he made war ,sent his children into war, paid for it with his taxes ,supported it funded it and paid for it -for what nothing other than glory in his own eyes ,he lost every concept of decency that he had for what -nothing .
he is destroying his world ,his self, his family and all things which should be important to the human race all because some one says that he or they know what is best for us -did we as a species stop learning how to think for ourselves or are we just so conditioned to do what we are told to do that we no longer question these false doctrines or is it dictatorships as we don`t seem to be able to stand up for our own selves let alone for the future of mankind .
at this rate we will all be gone from this world within about 100 years and do any of you care -not likely-you all remind me of DAFFY DUCK-the day he trapped and collected his reward for his deed of capturing the taz . what he said was that he was a little coward until one penny fell off his wheelbarrow and it rolled into the lions cage ,he ran in fought the lion and beat it badly only to run out with that last penny in his hand saying that he was a greedy little coward .and nothing else mattered to him except his money.
sounds like the whole of humanity money is all that is important -nothing else matters as it is a case of the blind leading the blind and all of us are blinded by the light of our wisdom-god help us all.because we dont know where to or how to begin to help ourselves.

reply to post by picrat


I have read what you spoke of.

I correct me if I am wrong but another way of putting it is that man strives perfection but the do not understand perfection. Thus creating imperfection and destruction until one truly realises the meaning of perfection?

Im not against perfection but I think we are far from it indeed.



[edit on 31-10-2008 by XXXN3O]

reply to post by XXXN3O


i agree with your last statement about them not understanding perfection as they don't seem to have anything worth while to judge themselves by-or a goal which is set for them to begin to learn to understand, that everything that they are doing right now is the opposite of what they need to learn to do .
they do have a good basic understanding of something and yet they fail to live and do that which needs to be done as they continue to follow anyone who seems to proclaim themselves leaders example; governments ,corporations,churches,military's and a whole lot of scientists whom the governments fund and back who will give to the people of this world any lie that the fore mentioned group wants sent out as disinformation along with the help of all the newspapers aka. their propaganda masters.
it seems that the vast majority of the human species are blind gullible sheep who will follow anyone no matter how wrong they are .sheep are such a one minded species one runs from the wolf in the rear of the herd and the rest all follow with out question ,right into the waiting jaws of the whole pack ahead of them. why? because they do not know how to do anything else, except follow.
what is it we do wrong?
thou shall not kill-so we make war same thing isn`t it or-
is it the fear and terror we instill along with hate, anger, outrage disbelieve at the atrocities that we commit even though we were told not to do these things to one another. or is it something else now population control as one man can father many children women can`t ,so cut down on the males and slow down the overpopulation of this world by our species . and yet the above named group of bigwigs -children and families don't have to face these horrors.
take care of this world- so we poisoned the air, plants, animals, water,our selves and our children which are our future and we are still doing it with reckless abandonment . we are killing everything off for what ? because we consider our selves to be at the top of the intelligence scale -what a joke we are.
never to unleash the light and fire which will destroy all life on this world.-bikini atoll,Hiroshima,Nagasaki ,Chernobyl,three mile island,nuclear energy,germ ,chemical and biological warfare and the so called leaders are still proliferating this insane madness globally for what? just because they are allies- what are they tomorrow. and what do the madmen in power call it detaunt -horse hockey.
so what do these above statements make us? GUILTY-by association as it was we the people that paid our taxes to fund and back these insane little madmen in their quest of world conquest no matter what it costs ,we have lost control of these people and their global nightmare which they have created for us ,so that they can all get their names in the history books as the elite group of losers that they really are, considering that as we continue along this our path which was chosen for us and not by us that there will be no one left to fill in the last page .NOTHING WILL BE LEFT.
as to paying taxes here is a little tidbit that just might shock you -new testament says give unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. TAXES- new testament is on the life of the Christ,funny thing Caesar was born 100 years before the Christ so why is it in the book at this point, and it can be checked out historically.someone not only has lied to us they are still doing it to this day. it is called POWER OVER THE PEOPLE- or keep them as slaves.
not of topic advise WATCH-LISTEN and LEARN.

I'm going to have to say yes - the aggressive pursuit of true perfection would lead to our destruction.

This reminds me of an X-Files episode where Mulder and Scully were sent undercover to live in a gated community. In that community, if people did not follow the stringent rules of the community, they were killed off.

So, not based on that episode, but personal belief, I think humans would kill each other and those they considered to be "not of the pure blood" or "not of the higher race." Look at the Nazis in WWII and their pursuit of the Aryan Race.

Senseless.

Wow some wonderful responses. If perfection is based on a perception how can we truly measure or recognise it - and surely one would have to deem it transient because what a person perceives as perfect today may not be deemed perfect tomorrow ? Firstly I think it is important to analyse what our underlying motivations ( to be perfect ) are ! Does the desire stem from an egotistical wish to be better than others ? Why are our expectations so ridiculously high ? Why is the emphasis in our society always more focused on being the best - having the most ? Does this not create and breed discontent - perhaps breed competitiveness which in turn creates rivalry instead of encouraging a team spirit of co-operation and support - Why are our insatiable materialistic and egotistical desires never completely satisfied ?

I really loved a particular scene in the movie Seven Years in Tibet - Harrer and climbing guide Peter Aufschnaiter are offered a gift of new clothes, and a Tibetan tailor named Pema Lhaki arrives to measure the two men. Not having seen a woman for several years, they immediately attempt to win her affections. In competition for the young Tibetans heart, Harrer attempts to impress Pema Lhaki by demonstrating his climbing techniques and showing a scrapbook containing his achievements back in Austria in skiing and his gold medal at the 1936 Winter Olympics. Lhaki is seemingly unimpressed, stating that climbing is a foolish pleasure and informing Harrer that

"Western civilization is very different from Tibet, where a man is more respected for abandoning his ego."

reply to post by destiny-fate


Interesting.

In an egotistical soceity the man at the top is always kept to the top by the other egotistical people trying to get there.

This does explain why we have so much corruption.
It questions the persuit of perfection in this egotistical society.

Thanks for the reply.



[edit on 11-11-2008 by XXXN3O]

you may be correct that one man may not be able to destroy the world by himself,but it only takes one man to ignite the powder keg that will cause the escalation of insanity that would destroy the world.one man doing that which he was told to do,or ordered to do and the beginning of the end takes place within a very few moments in time . one incoming or one planted nuke is all that it would take and all the military`s would unleash a war to end all wars-NUCLEAR ARMAGEDDON. 1/2 hour later and it is bye bye people ,and those who are alive would truly envy the dead. after this event everything in this world becomes toxic to all life especially the human race,and those who ran for cover underground would have a nasty surprise waiting for them when they crawl out of their little gopher holes nothing grows and every thing is contaminated.
if this is perfection i`d hate to see what insanity would look like.

reply to post by XXXN3O

are we truly in an egotistical society which is led by egomaniacs with other ego maniacs wanting to lead instead .or is it that the ego maniacs who hold these places of so called power were put in place by the few egomaniacs who look down upon the people of the world as their slaves to their so called godliness. as they seem to be the ones who want to control all aspects of society without having the faintest idea as to what really is wrong as this group seems to think that they are all seeing and all knowing,[the fools on the hill] -the want to be gods who never could be.
it is not the average person here whom is after these groups vast amount of madness and insanity ,the vast majority of the people are turning out to put into place someone whom they believe will have their best interests at heart along with the ability to begin to make changes that will be for the betterment of all. these are those who are scrimping and saving just to survive daily.
this is the common mans forte to be a pawn that is not worth anything at all to the egotistical madmen who call themselves leaders along with their masters whose every wish and whim is allowed -they are those who dare to try to play god through the pittance of wealth that they keep giving to our leaders so that they can continue to live in their fantasy world that they seem to think they made and own.all the while their lackeys continue to oppress the hearts and minds and mentality all all others . what did Moses say -LET MY PEOPLE GO.
the only way that perfection will ever be found and had in this world is the day that all of the human race is destroyed as they are the problem here not the world-they are destroying it all and themselves for what MONEY and GREED.

Seeing as how the alternative is stagnation... I think I'll go with the improvements that come with the striving for perfection

reply to post by XXXN3O


I think it is a pointless battle that only causes harm to civilization.

I have a good example of this process in action:

I knew a woman who has three children. She had an argument with her partner and went with her kids to a shelter.

While there, Social Services became involved (as they should, to make sure that everything is o.k. with the kids).
During this time they discovered that she had a mild OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) which manifested itself in her having to wash her hands several times, with bleach.

They took her kids from her and split them up, placing them in foster homes around the country.
They decided, in all their wisdom, that because of this mild OCD she wasn't able to adequately care for her kids and that they might be affected by her impulse to wash her hands so often. It was used in court as the sole justification for removing her children from her.
Her children were taken from her in that court room, the youngest literally screaming and trying to hold on to her mum while Social Services dragged them away.

This wasn't the only case that I became aware of while part of an action group of affected families. Social Services were dragged through the mud and cases cropped up where kids had been placed with foster parents who were later raided and convicted of pedophile activities. One of the kids of the parents in this group was not told about the raiding of the foster parents and only found out her son had been moved and why in the local paper!

My point is, these regimental community services destroy originality in upbringing and affect millions of families because these families don't fit their stereotype of the "perfect" environment.

The perfect family that their textbooks display rarely exists, which is why so many families who have the slightest brush with Social Services end up entangled with them forever. They are striving to force their standardized rules of family life on parents in this country, and destroying all diversity and originality in upbringing where they are involved.

And yet, in the most extreme cases where action is so clearly required, they do little because they are so bogged down in pointless cases where families do not meet their strict stereotype, textbook example.

The same is happening through education, medical care and law enforcement. Nothing is given original perspective because each community now answers to a higher standard for all, and it simply isn't that simple.

reply to post by Resinveins


I do not think the alternative is stagnation as such.

Rather a change in motive, greed is a motive just now that leads to faster so called improvements but the greed factor always sets in and we end up with a partially completed good that need improvements to create bigger profits in future.

A good example of this to give one is the ipod, how many are their and why?

Are we really progressing or are we going in a circle??

If we had an actual desire to progress as a species collectively rather than the egotistical gain to satisfy greed then I think we would actually make some progress if that makes sense.

[edit on 10-12-2008 by XXXN3O]

reply to post by detachedindividual

very true they have a set of so called standards for all people as to what is correctable and acceptable to this group .but as to your friend with the slight problem of behavior ,since when is it wrong to wash your hands ,just because she used bleach . check out the facts that there are more deadly germs on the human hands than you could believe. one set of germs which we all care will cause a fever in the body which has no cure and death will result as there is no cure ,so don`t put your hands inside of any open cut.were we not all taught that cleanliness is next to godliness .where do they get off as bleach will kill a lot more germs than soap and water will.
this is the problem when text book perfectionists are given the ability to set up shop and preach their standards to the world even though their standards and rules are unfounded in truth ,only the mind set of the so call psych `s is right ,to bad as Freud was a screw up and others believed his foolishness and folly.

reply to post by XXXN3O

are we progressing or are we going in a circle.

the answer is neither .
we still use the old monetary system from ancient Egypt and Rome ,along with the governing system and law system and we are finding that nothing is really moving forward it is now starting to move in reverse.
these great nations once fell for the same reasons that all nations in the worlds monetary system is about to fail due to those few people who control the world and it`s advancement on the basis that if it does not line their greedy pockets it is bad for us . they seem to have the right to abuse us all as this is their way and it has been going on for a very long time as it is the worlds wealthiest families that own everything , they have been amazing their wealth since the very beginning .
google in -the ring of power -if you have 3 plus hours and watch and listen and learn who they are -and how far back they really go .
question -why is it that all the ancient records and languages seem to burn throughout history ?
i wonder what trail these the so called elite group are trying to hide from the people.

We create machines to build cars etc etc and every so many are still at fault because it is a man made machine creating a machine.

I work in a factory writing software and integrating machine data with real time manufacturing reports. A machine will always do exactly the same thing, thats where repeatability comes in. If the parts change, the machine settings, basically when things change, you dont have the same process. The machine will, if the same parts and settings are used, produced exactly the same result.

Do you think that persuit of perfection will lead to our destruction?

I believe the pursuit of perfection is also the pursuit of the absolute Truth. Our curiosity is a symptom of this search for the absolute Truth, and this has given rise to everything we have up to this point. I therefore interpret what you've said as 'Will our path end in destruction?', and that my friend is the $1,000,000 dollar question!

Imperfection is the beauty of the purpose of our lives and without it we cannot progress.

This is absolutely true. Without variation, the Universe wouldn't have began, evolution wouldn't of occurred, and there would be no progress.

It is also the essence of who we are and I believe that is infinity in a human aspect.

Infinite variations yes, both biologically and psychologically, because we're all experiencing a different variation of Reality due to our viewpoints. Again, I stress that without variation, theres no progress.

If you look into history and the big example is Hitler who wanted a perfect race and look at the atrocity caused by one mans emotion and viewpoint. I am saying that the persuit of absolute perfection is corrupt.

I think the pursuit of anything can lead to biased and dangerous views. Interestingly, Hitler was full of inconsistencies. He was a vegetarian for Gods sake! He also had a Jewish section within his army. I think Hitler used peoples xenophobia to gain power, and everything else was his delusions. He was searching for Occult artifacts and any facts that he could use in his bid for World Domination.

If our DNA was to become perfect then I cannot say that I would rule that out as I am not perfect so I do not know that but at this time I can guarantee we wont reach it just yet.

I'm not sure how DNA could become perfect? This seems to go against what I said earlier. For DNA to become perfect, all species would have to converge to a singular form, then discard all other changes which would render the result unable to use its path of evolution to drop back through the evolutionary ladder. What happens is environmental stressing can force a previous evolutionary adaptation back to the surface (An animal forced to live in an aquatic environment may 'devolve' certain aspects of itself to a previously better adapted shape. Scientists managed to turn on a previous piece of DNA and give a beak to a mouse (or something very similar, proving the mouse DNA had perviously incarnation as some bird or other). That example may not be absolutely correct, but the process is correct.

This does of course tie into the ying and yang

The meaning behind the YinYang is related to this thread, but I think it goes against what your saying - There HAS to be both sides, negative and positive, because without both aspects there can be no reactions at all, and the Universe would be silent and probably still a singularity.

They took her kids from her and split them up, placing them in foster homes around the country.

We know that our systems have become computerised and rigid. Where before we could ring the bank, now we get a call centre. Where before we could ring a broadband engineer and tell him the problem, now you are put in queues that are very impersonal and leave us at the whim of the 'system'. I think this comes from the fact we've only had computer technology for less than 1 persons lifetime, and the systems we've built are far from perfect or robust enough to take on the intricacies of human nature. Its like law and the age of sexual consent. In many many cultures, it was enforced by the small villages and such. If someone was preying on a youngster, they'd be beaten and killed or chased. But the age of consent wasn't an issue. Now we have rigid laws for fluid biological people, and it just doesn't work. Where one teenager might not be ready for sex, or even sexual knowledge, another may be extremely mature in decisions. This is one of the extreme examples, but shows how imperfect and how rigid our systems are.

There is a perfect way to run our systems, but we'd have to work together to create them. Doing this would remove the competitive edge and basically be an end to all capitalist behaviours. There are perfect decisions, which are got by weighing up options. Only a machine can make a truly impartial value based perfect decision...

My 2 cents