Russia's new nuclear attack submarine starts sea trials

hey dave_...i'm a a rookie to all this sub scuttle, but coming into this thread and others like it is why i became a member. good to hear from some of the people that actually work in and around this stuff. nice to hear we have some actual thoughtful, logical, reasonable, people covering my and others civilian ass. there has been some real idiotic main stream media experts that have made me wonder if i'm actually more intelligent the those yahoos.

Another article.

www.reuters.com...

I just heard on Fox News the gas release occurred in the 1st and 2nd compartment. 17 civilian contractors and 3 sailors asphyxiated. I believe the accident occurred on the same Akula we're discussing in the thread. I wonder if an operator error or a material failure caused this accident ?

Dangerous business

Well, that is the reason i posted in this thread, it is confirmed that the accident happened onboard Nerpa as stated in my post.
Anyway, an accident who should not have happened! Stupid mistake to bring over 200 persons is a sub who normaly carry about 70. Some articles is mentioning that there maybe weren't enough portable breathing devices for everyone.
I wonder how this will affect the indian lease deal..

As an ex-skimmer who has spent some uncomfortable times in the GIUK gap, I can confirm everything stated here by Von Spurter.

I can also say that tracking submarines successfully needs a whole host of assets, surface, sub-surface, airborne and in some cases space. The main tool for tracking submarines is still passive sonar and the key to its success is to remain quieter than your quarry.

The problem comes with tracking SSKs as these are very quiet as they run on batteries and electric motors when dived. However they do have to recharge batteries on a periodic basis this means to do this they need to switch on their noisy diesels and for the majority come to periscope depth to snort.

SSNs are a little easier to track; they have to keep their reactor cooling pumps running at all times and these produce distinctive low frequency tonals which can be tracked using passive sonar. Each submarine type has its own distinctive noise signature that's how we can tell who is who!

However noise isn’t the only signature that a submarine emanates, most are made from steel and as they transit through the oceans they causes a disturbance in the earth’s magnetic field. This can be measured using MAD fitted to aircraft such as Nimrod, P3 Orion etc.

As for those Russian boats built from exotic non-ferrous alloys, well anything displacing several thousand tons travelling through water causes a wake, and these pressure differences can be also measured.

And I have not even mentioned those other tell tales such as EM emission from transmitting signal traffic or intelligence.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

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During a war, most subs will be in radio silence.

reply to post by Dave_

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The Russians have said that the accident does not affect the trial schedule and things should start soon. I don't think the Indians have responded to that..

reply to post by Dave_

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[edit on 17-11-2008 by CTPAX]

Mod Edit: Please use "EX" tags for linking outside material


[edit on 11/17/08 by FredT]

[edit on 11/17/08 by FredT]

reply to post by CTPAX

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So first they name and globally shame him - then say he's just a suspect! So much for camaraderie in the Russian Submarine Service.

On the same note what a ridiculous system to allow a computer to automatically engage a lethal device from the input of an Able Seaman (I assume as he's referred to as a 'sailor') without any failsafes at all.

I just hope they don't have family days on board Russian boats - God help us all if Aunt Edna parked her backside on the black and yellow hatched button...

You Westerners are so hipocritical, if it was USA that had the automatic fire cont system and Russia's subs didn't, you'd be talking about how "back-wards" Russia's sub system is.

[edit on 17-11-2008 by 1000hanz]

There is a very good reason US submarines do not have "automatic" fire fighting systems. This tragic accident is an example. The inherent danger of an automated, pressurized, asphyxiating gas dispensing system on board a submarine outweighs the benefit for damage control.

Firefighting is best done by the crew. Damage control training and drills are a huge part of the typical submariner's routine. Russian and other foreign submarine forces have been trending towards heavy automation and smaller crews. The US Navy resists it.

Last time I checked, American subs have a hell of a better safety record than Russia's. Must be doing something right. Although there are things both countries do not like to talk about.

Orangetom, did you ever hear about USS Houston almost being lost ? (circa mid 80s ?)

I got to go along with Schaden on this one. Indeed damage control is a constant training exercise. I too am dubious about to much automation. I know of pumps and other systems hooked up to computers where the pumps started on their own. Not good. In one case the command was given to start a pump and several pumps started...not good again.

Every sailor in the navy goes to firefighting school...mandatory..after the USS Forestall accident and lessons learned from that tragic event.

I remember coming on shift ..graveyard shift and working some items on a 688 boat...in front of the diesel engine. A sailor told me that they were getting ready to have a damage control exercise and that was the path to the item in the scenario..I needed to move my hinder parts from in front of the diesel. Well I didn't do this but continued to work. When the exercise went down..I got stepped on ...kicked ..stomped...etc etc. I never did that again. It was a herd of cattle passing over me...and carrying DC equipment/tools. That was not my finest hour ...but it was unforgettable..I wont do that again. I give these DC parties a wide berth now days.
THe sailors take these exercises seriously.

The story I heard about the USS Houston was that she sank a tugboat on the way out to do the filming for the "Hunt for Red October."
This tugboat was towing a barge by cable and the USS Houston, running on the surface at night got between the tug and the barge and snagged the cable. The tugboat got dragged backwards and sank with some or all loss of the hands on board.
In sick type sailor humor...someone painted a tugboat on the side of the sail..or so the story goes...until they were ordered to remove it.

I am not sure if this is the same story of which you speak Schaden.
I worked on the USS Houston when she was under construction.
I've worked on all the 688s built here at this yard.

Thanks,
Orangetom

[edit on 17-11-2008 by orangetom1999]

I knew a chief petty officer who was in the control room when the ship was nearly lost sometime in the late 1980s. They were at pd ventilating or something in a heavy sea state when VH-1 (head valve in the snorkel mast) failed open! I guess the sump took on so much water, the sight window in the Nav center looked empty. They didn't realize any of this happened until all of a sudden, while at pd, seawater started pouring out of the ventilation ducts in the overhead.

They tried to broach the ship, but the boat took on so much water in the forward compartment, the boat quickly pitched into a steep down angle. I guess it went down very fast. An EMBT blow and emergency reverse and they barely regained positive buoyancy before it was too late. I don't know if or by how much it exceeded test depth. At one point it didn't look like the boat would make it up. He said there were guys on their knees praying like they knew they were about to die. Apparently a few received releases from submarine duty for psych reasons. They lost the nerve to serve in the silent service.

[edit on 17-11-2008 by Schaden]

reply to post by Schaden

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Good grief Schaden,

No I had not heard that story. I am however familiar with the VH system in the overhead having worked it many times. It is a bear to work in the overhead as is the job of changing out a periscope.

You have to take on a lot of water to do that Schaden. I am thinking they need a better warning system or tell tail drain system for that. By the sounds of that story it went down very fast when it did.

THere is also supposed to be in that system somewhere a water sensor ...to prevent excessive water from getting in and locking up the diesel engine. It shuts the head valve. Sounds like that sensor was not working.

By the sounds of your story ..they were not running the diesel in that sea state. Probably a good thing..though the event was almost tragic in another aspect.

Yes..Ive heard tales as well of sailors praying and crossing fingers at such events happening. Yard people as well. People locked behind watertight bulkhead doors while the boat is going down before they could recover...pounding on the doors to get into the other compartment...but it wasn't happening...people knowing this on the other side of the door but could not open the door....hearing them, knowing they are in panic through the door. That is a tough call for someone to make..a real tough call.

There is a story here about a boomer in for overhaul and out on trials they lost propulsion power and were sliding backwards....deep....before they could recover. When they got back here and tied up at the pier..the civilians/vendors could not wait to get off her and on to dry land. This is the event where I heard of an old Chief mumbling a quiet prayer under his breath and crossing fingers...when standing their post in the engine room behind the locked bulkhead door. The civilians went into panic and were beating on the bulkhead door. Not happening..no one was going to open it.

When you have an olde salty experienced Chief mumbling a prayer under their breath and crossing fingers...you know you are in Deep S---!!

One can get religion rapidly after such an event in thier lives.

You have to carry a serious set of gonads to do that kind of work day in and day out...and keep coming back. The wives as well. The average civilian out here has a clue. They're out to lunch on this.

Thanks for the story Schaden,
Orangetom



[edit on 18-11-2008 by orangetom1999]

They're not giving it to the Indians it seems!!
Last minute change of heart?

www.indianexpress.com...

Russians playing hardball bargain? Any 'playing' at this juncture would be in extremely bad taste with the recent loss of lives!

Do you think nuclear with all the steam noise signature.
Rubber pads all over the hull might make a sub quiet.
Well the props make the most noise.

With an atomic direct to electricity power plant and not nuclear to steam
that would be the biggest application of non nuclear atomic energy.

Yes removing and replacing the periscopes is quite a job. SUBSAFE and all that QA. Mostly an A-gang task, lots of hydraulics, but the FTs and ETs have some responsibilities on their respective sides. It must be way easier on the new, non-hull penetrating scopes. Forward compartment upper level is a nightmare to rig for dive, especially when control is crowded for underway preparations. Around 150 seawater, ventilation, pneumatic and hydraulic valves on that list !

I think that's exactly what failed. The sensor in the snorkel mast. You probably know there are two electrified probes that short when splashed with sea water. A good reason to have a vigilant sump watch. Without knowing all the details, it sounds like he failed to notice until it was bad. That's a junior watch station. Shows you how the lowest nub can save or sink the whole boat. I can't remember which tank the sump drains to, but it must have been a lot of water because it went into a steep angle. I think they were probably using the lp blower.

No I did not know there were two in there but it would make sense to have a back up. I know of and have seen a diesel which was locked up when seawater got in and stopped it dead in mid stroke....not pretty at all. In this case as I recall the sensor was jumped out for some reason..or disconnected...out on trials.
Up until that time as a new guy at the trade I had never seen the internals of a diesel built as such...a Fairbanks Morse.....quite remarkable and exceptional...very expensive too. One can see a cutaway on the Fairbanks Morse site..also some photos. I had never seen connecting rods bent all the way to the cylinder walls and cracked cylinder walls. Wow!! Very impressive.!! That engine locked up like right ....NOW!!!

Similar to this on on this page on this link..

www.fairbanksmorse.com...

Did not even know this was on the web until I just now decided to look it up. Brings back memories.

That job was like 16 hours a day...7 days a week until completion. The guys working it said ..never again. The taxes ate them up for the work and hours they put in. But they "Got her done." I never have myself, having learned from those olde timers. Ive worked 12 hours 7 days but draw the line after that. Same reason..taxes eat one right up Taxes are high enough ..on 12/7 days a week. There is just a point of diminishing returns for the hours put in.

Nonetheless..very impressive the destruction in that diesel. I'll remember that the rest of my days.

Yes...that one was close...Schaden ...to close. One often takes watches for granted and as very very boring. This is true until something happens...if one survives it becomes very obvious how important is a good trained watchstander...or even a sentinel...for landlubbers.

Thanks,
Orangetom




[edit on 20-11-2008 by orangetom1999]

and ladies and gentlemen - if you are following the above conversation , then you now realise mistakes and accidents can be made on ANY sub , so its not that russian kit is rubbish , but failures of systems , either mechanical or training can and do occur.

Correct Harlequin...quite correct. This is why training and confidence/experience counts for a lot.

Correct again.. We are not just talking about Russian submarines here. All the Navy's have had such or similar experiences. Olde Murphy is an equal opportunity SOB...so to speak.

When I am assigned to up and coming difficult jobs/tasks to which I know that certain others, who have also gone around the block, are assigned...confidence and spirits go up...greatly. For we know who can cut it and who cannot....who has the "Right Stuff" and who does not. We do have the responsibility of grooming new people but we watch them closely on their tasks. Particularly on these types of jobs. We have also told the boss man..."we don't want so and so on this job...they are to dangerous."
A slacker or one who cannot cut it will put the others quickly in danger and risk. Best to get rid of them as soon as one can. Harsh ...but this is the reality. No "makeovers" given here for second place.

Well said Harlequin...well said!!

Orangetom

To TeslaandLyne up there, an energy conversion directly from atomic to electric? The only thing I can think of is something like the radioisotope thermoelectric generators Nasa uses for some probes...and they don't generate nearly enough power to run a sub, at least not yet. If the efficiency increases it might happen someday, but as it stands right now our reactors are struggling to enter the world of 1990s technology, if there's one thing that can be said about the U.S. nuclear navy it's that they are highly conservative.

I definitely agree with the statements about mistakes/equipment failures happening in every navy, lets not forget the loss of the USS Thresher in 1963. I just hope the Russians learn from their mistakes the way the U.S. Navy did with the creation of the Subsafe program and intensive quality assurance.