Russia's new nuclear attack submarine starts sea trials

reply to post by WestPoint23

---

No problem there Chief. As I said ..most people watch to many movies and don't think...at least outside the box. Much of the systems in place around us are designed to keep us from thinking outside the box. Good that you are able to do that very thing on your own. Keep it up...just think a bit more about what you are thinking about. Peoples lives are on the line here. Our sailors as well as we ourselves.

CTPAX,
I was thinking along similar lines..particularly since it is obvious that the large bulb mounted on top of the rudder is not in the photo of the boat sitting on the concrete pad...in front of the building. This was immediately noticeable..the absence of bulb on top of the rudder. Then looking closely .and panning back...to the larger picture..it became obvious that there were only limited facilities available on this concrete pad as I described in my previous post.

Hello Stellar,

Without giving away any secrets of state ..It would be quite reasonable in the digital age to state on an open line ..that submarines have encryption equipment. Any intelligence they gather can be encrypted and sent out at an appropriate...meaning ..safe time and place ..to an orbiting aircraft or satellite. It would be a pretty safe assumption to state that this is not Radio Shack equipment. This encryption also means that it can be compressed into a quickly transmittable form such that the boat will not have to endanger itself or crew for any lengthy period of time.

Ive been in the radio rooms of both submarines and aircraft carriers. (Before they put the cypher locks on the doors ..after that ..forget it...except by divine authority/blessings) I can tell you this..just from my experience as a ham radio operator...the navy has first class coaxial cable..both hard line and soft line. Not the cable or connectors from Radio Shack.

Sorry Stellar..but I am hard on Radio Shack.



Not at all. I don't find your point snippy at all. It is entirely reasonable.
The average training and readiness of Submariners is much higher than surface ship peoples. One must have and maintain this attitude/readiness or the guys will weed one out quickly. I say this simply by the nature of the difference between surface and subsurface operations.
I did not catch this difference for years at this yard until I went to work overtime one weekend on a cruiser...the difference in the caliber of surface sailors and submariners. Very noticeable to an experienced eye.

Even as a yard bird ..doing the work I am doing ...I know that on certain very risky and dangerous jobs..who can cut it and who cannot. In whom the "confidence is high" and in whom it is not. We know whom we want with us on these jobs..no slackers need apply. On certain jobs we have even requested certain peoples by name and brought them in from the other side of this yard...even from other shifts for a specific job. You can see and feel the confidence levels go up when we know who has got our backs on such jobs. Don't kid yourself here either...we too will test a guy to see if they have the "Right Stuff." Submariners are no different.....undoubtedly more extreme....For they cannot go home at the end of their shift as can I.
While this can be a rough and even uncivil method of weeding out..I don't fault them one bit for this attitude.

Their overall readiness and state of mind must be more acute and aware than surface ship peoples..by the very nature of their environment.

Will you in peacetime compromise your data gathering capabilities to gain information that is clearly not critical for current survival? I hope that makes my original intent with that statement clearer...

Im going to make a statement here which may garner a lot of flack from people who watch entirely to many movies and don't think ...outside the box..

Outside of the more recent task of delivering Special Teams the primary job of most attack boats..is in fact ..intelligence gathering. It is just not something one finds on the front pages or on the Tube..for everyone to see.

I also know that we as a nation...spy and gather intelligence information's on our friends as well as our enemies. This is not a new phenomenon. We have been doing this for many many years now. There are no good guys in the intelligence gathering business.

Any random intelligence phoned home for interpreting ..is done at a more secure location. Undoubtedly, if it is of interest, the boat other boats or assets will be tasked or are tasked to get more such intelligence.

so you could probably enlighten me as to if or how many torpedoes/cruise missiles are kept in tubes during regular peacetime deployments.

I know how many certain types of boats are capable of carrying just by examining the stations/rack space in a torpedo room or missile tubes (VLS) but as to the precise load out of a boat...no. I submit this would be tailored to the specific mission. As to how many are carried in torpedo tubes...no once again. I made the mistake years ago of asking a torpedo man if they carried fish in the tubes when they went out...the conversation just broke right down. He said he cannot discuss that area.
But if you know how many torpedo tubes a boat has...just do some quick calculation. Same with VLS missile tubes. Doesn't take a lot of speculation.
Just ask yourself ..if they are going out cocked and locked...is training for a snapshot just an academic exercise.. ....or are they just pissing in the wind/bluffing??

I can tell you for certainty that when I was in the 57th Fighter Interceptor Squadron in Keflavik, Iceland, The Black Knights,...we did not carry blue ones on the rails. I did my share of time out at the alert barns.

Sure but if the primary method of detection is acoustic how much does it help if you can change your metabolic ( if you will) rate?

( Orange jumpsuit lying prone in grass compared to orange jumpsuit running and or trying to look around by raising his head) when your working against background noise

Chameleon...note anything peculiar about the Chameleon's technique.
Ever see this bug..with at times..perfect camouflage...called a Katydid?? Right down to the veins in its wings looking like veins in a leaf...perfect isn't it? I remember seeing one move in my periphery in a bush not a foot from my head. It took me 20 minutes of waiting patiently for it to move again before I saw it for what it was....it was perfect. Good thing for me he wasn't armed!!

Outside the box..remember???

Well enough said about that...

Thanks to all for their posts,
Orangetom





[edit on 1-11-2008 by orangetom1999]

Yeap.. That's the one..

linkie..

The number 4 picture on warfare.ru is a picture of Gepard, latest and last
Akula II submarine. Commissioned into Northern Fleet 4 Dec 2001.
You can easily see because the pod is much smaller compared to other Akula subs, only Gepard have this type of pod for towed array. Pic might be taken just after launch, and that she just rolled out of the construction hall to the right. Or maybe the boat is back for inspection/modification.

Orangetom, i have been reading some of your posts. Can u please stop
behaving like a ..... In every post you write, about half is all about how
secret your information is, how well you know everything but you cant tell
blah blah. We all must think harder, "outside the box" etc..LOL. Who do you think you are dude? If you have so much information about submarines, wtf are you doing on this forum? Stop putting yourself above other forum members, seems to me you are not here to learn or discuss, you are just here to brag about your top secret knowledge..blah

I will vouch for vonspurter. The specific tactics and frequencies are classified. However the military application of the underlying physical principle, the doppler effect, is common knowledge. I begrudgingly spent many hundreds of hours in the section tracking party. I operated the TAC-3, a UNIX workstation with a GUI for calculating independent target motion analysis, while interfacing with sonar and fire control solutions.



Due to the heavy emphasis on littoral ops, a hovering system was a requirement for the class. I believe Sturgeons were the first to employ an automatic depth control system. LAs have a primitive, manually operated, depth control system. I don't think Seawolves have an automatic system either. Ohio SSBNs have an elaborate automatic depth control system. Without a hovering system, it would pop up like a cork while launching its birds.

The diving officer better know how to maintain a level trim or things can get out of hand quickly. Running aground is always a concern while submerged in shallow water.



The sonar pod on top of the rudder looks off but the hull shape looks like an akula II. It is strange it's missing the usual dry dock services, but maybe it's an old picture from when the construction was in stasis. Comrade, drop desiccant down the hatches and weld the pig shut. We finish when oil hits $140 a barrel. Now we drink vodka.

reply to post by Dave_

---

Well Dave...I'm sorry if this method affronts or offends you. Like some in here there are certain areas I simply wont go into specifics.

As someone working in the yards both on overhauls and new constructions of these boats...we are not always told certain specifics of how things work or why. But for those with certain technological backgrounds from before working here....we can eventually sort things out for ourselves. You just have to sit back and think things through to connect certain dots.
I realize that this is at variance with certain concepts many of us take for granted in a day and time of instant gratification but that is the way it is.
It is not ego or self promotion. Sorry if you took it that way.

By the way...thanks for the name of that boat. I have never heard of the name of the Gepard. Googling this name I came across and watched several videos of Russian Boats..both in the water and in ceratin compartments. It was interesting if one has a background in some of what is in these videos.

Schaden,
Interesting and brought back memories when you mentioned the Hovering systems on the Sturgeon and boomer class boats. I did alot of hydraulic work on those boats. Also about the LA's in this regard. I did not catch it the first few on which I worked ...but then somewhere it became noticable by the differerence in them.

Oh..and about the trim...I chuckled when first hearing a sailor tell the tale of messing with new people learning to set the trim. They would tell of quickly getting people to move around the boat to mess with these guys. Though it has been awhile I think they refered to this as a trim party in messing with these new people. These sailors told such stories with a great sense of satisfaction. You could see it in their faces and hear it in their voices.
Im working aircraft carriers now...dont care for it. To much walking. To big. Always liked working submarines better. I found sub work more satisfying though sometimes more difficult and challenging.

Oh..also agree with you...I too noticed it was missing the usual drydock connections in the photos. I dont even see any ventilation or air manifold connections, temporary lighting etc.

The photo on page 1 of this thread. The one with the top of the boat covered in snow and the door opened on the hull. Looks like part of a torpedo loading access door to the inner hull. I am asking myself ...how much noise does a door like that make at substantial speed? On these types of boats with large sails..doors in the side of the sail....same thing. How much noise at speed?? Or do they actually make that much speed?? This is a 12,000 plus ton boat.

Thanks to all for thier posts,
Orangetom

My guess she has just been rolled out of that construction hall you see on the right. Work is finished and she is ready to be moved into water, or the opposite, she is on her way into hall.



Why do you expect noise from this door? When shut the casing is smooth and nothing sticking out. Looks to be for supply delievering , alot of boxes on the casing. It is not for loading of torpedoes, all torpedoes are loaded in front of boat. Look at this picture from subsim.com :
Akula

reply to post by Dave_

---

When a boat is moved into or out of a position...there are certain connections/ support facilities which accompany her. Especially a boat with a reactor which has gone critical verses one which has not. Cooling water is one of them. A sanitary connection for pumping off waste unless you intend to pump it overboard onto the concrete pad on which this boat is sitting. Shore power connections. On a boat which loses power...if you are inside...it is so dark you cannot see your hand right in front of your nose. I never go into a ship or boat without my mag lite.....ever!! To do this ..without a light ...is a good way to step in a hole trying to get off the boat/ship and break ones neck should lighting power be lost. There are people at this yard who carry two lights or a light and a cyalume snap lite stick. A sailor was killed in this manner going into a unlighted compartment to sneak a smoke...no flashlight. He fell several decks through an opening into a machinery space on one of the carriers in for overhaul. I keep my mag lite with me even when I am off work. I have it on my hip right now...along with my gerber pocket tool and a set of feeler gauges.

IF this boat has a reactor which has gone critical..and is going back into the building...I'd like to know from a radiation counter..what the background radiation level is on this concrete pad or in/around the building verses the radiation levels of the whole area...the natural background radiation level of the whole area around this facility. I wonder how much contamination the workers have tracked home and never known it. These are things one sees and thinks by the lack of support facilities on the concrete pad where this boat is outside the building.

Why do you expect noise from this door? When shut the casing is smooth and nothing sticking out. Looks to be for supply delivering , a lot of boxes on the casing. It is not for loading of torpedoes, all torpedoes are loaded in front of boat. Look at this picture from subsim.com :

Indeed...good question. It is called flow noise. If one ever stands on a pier with handrails on the side..in high winds the handrails will sing...they will hum to a resonant noise. Flow noise will do the same thing at certain speeds.
The picture you are linking shows two doors in the torpedo loading system. The door in your link seems to be the door which is further aft...the forward door being closed in the photo to which I referred. What I know from experience is that fastener...locking systems.. tend over time to wear out, meaning loosen..causing slack in the doors. This is a double hull boat.
Look at the photo you linked...the front door..has a taper towards the bow. This taper does not appear to be heavily supported....by hinges or such. This is where one can get flow noise at certain speeds though at the other door it is possible as well.
While I don't have the article on hand to link...one of the articles I found while researching the name you provided Gephardt..mentioned this in that the Russian boats tend to be more noisy as they age. I was also a bit taken back at the mention in one of the articles as to the metal of which they were made. I am not for certain that this was not disinformation. I did however catch this right away.
This torpedo is being supported in a lifting rig attached to the center of gravity on the weapon. What is supporting this torpedo once it is lowered into the outer hull. There must be some kind of receiving cradle there. You don't want to be bouncing, jarring or knocking a torpedo around. The fuel type often used in them is very hazardous if you have a spill.
Notice the two guys on the pier with a rope or small line attached to the weapon..fore and aft...this is called a tag line and used for stabilizing the torpedo or load during a lift. Very good safety practice on a heavy lift such as this....or any heavy bulky lift.
Also if you look carefully at the bow of this boat in the photo...you will see circular holes in the hull...a door ...on either side of the open torpedo loading door. There are also traces of such a door outlines at the waterline across the bow..from port to starboard. You have to look closely to see it.

Back to your quote...they are loading stores ..through a torpedo loading hatch???? Wow!! You'd better have a good protective seal on the seat of the hatch....no scratches or dents here. Sailors are not known for necessarily being graceful. Also you'd better be very careful with the rubber seal on the loading door/hatch. One cut and it needs to be replaced.
It is not a good idea to be loading or stacking alot of stuff through a torpedo room ..with weapons stored in it. Not real smart to me. This stuff needs to be loaded through another access.

Flow noise is the reason. Such doors need to be kept at a minimum..or not at all...which is why I mentioned the access door at the side of the sail structures in some of the videos I watched.

Thanks,
Orangetom


[edit on 7-11-2008 by orangetom1999]

I'd completely forgotten about the depth control system on LA boats until I pictured the BCP and remembered the joystick to operate it. It's less advanced than an actual hovering system. I'd heard from others how the 637 had an automatic system whereby you could "dial in" a depth.

Why are you so hung up on the support facilities? If the sub is just rolled out or on its way in, there is no need for it. Certainly work is finished or havent started yet, it could be that they are moving the sub within the next hour for all we know. This is not a permanent storage. I agrre that connections/suuport facilities is needed when doing work on the sub, but she is most likely under way in or out. And reactor is most likely turned off.



The doors on the the pictures are not the same, thats why I mentioned door for delievering supplies. The two doors for torpedo delievery are further to the front of the subs. Btw, the quality of the picture is not good enough to conclude if proper hinges etc are fitted.


Dont they all?? Unless proper maintenance is beeing done...

Of course there is some receiving cradle inside. What makes you think there is not? Do you think they are received by hand and stored on the racks?

What are you talking about? The torpedo-doors? Remember russian subs have tubes in the bow..what you see is torpedo-doors. They do not load torpedoes there. Well, on Kilo class they do actually. They lower a delivery cradle down to water-level and slide the torpedoes through the tubes.

Dave,

I wouldn't challange orangetom's or schadens knowledge of these boats. they know a lot more than probably 99 percent of the people here at ATS. and if you get to actually know these guys better through the threads or u2u you will find that they are great resources to learn from.

pay attention to what orangetom has to say. read between the lines. think a little out of the box with what he is saying and you can learn a whole lot of very interesting things.

Also, none of these men who work on these boats will go into actual detail or spell out anything thats supposed to be kept quiet. they are patriots who take their work and experiences very seriously. so don't feel upset if they refuse to go into detail about how or why they know certain things.

Always great to see your posts Orangetom and Schaden.

reply to post by BASSPLYR

---

I am not questioning his knowledge, only his way of answering peoples questions. Even if he works with submarines and combatantst every day that does not mean he is correct in every statement. The way he talks to people is sometimes disrespectful, there is alot of peolpe on this forum with naval knowledge.

reply to post by BASSPLYR

---

I am not questioning his knowledge, only his way of answering peoples questions. Even if he works with submarines and combatantst every day that does not mean he is correct in every statement. The way he talks to people is sometimes disrespectful, there is alot of peolpe on this forum with naval knowledge. Unless he can back up his knowledge with other surces or facts there is no reason for me or other to believe whatever he says....

Well, enough of this..back to topic

don't have to believe in either of them if you don't want to, but they are legit.

Orangetom comes from the old school caste. sorry if he sounds authorative....well cause in some respects he IS the authority on this subject. he knows his stuff. you don't have to wonder with him. But Orangetom can defend himself and this issue doesn't really require any more dialoge than whats been said.

Personally I'm not impressed with any of the russian boats. especially not the new borei class.

I too wonder why there is not support equipment for the boat in the picture. something is fishy with the photo.

even another double post.

mods feel free to remove the two doubles if you want.

[edit on 8-11-2008 by BASSPLYR]

damn double posts!!!

man I hate it when the computer does that.

[edit on 8-11-2008 by BASSPLYR]

Damn, bad news. Acident on Nerpa! rian.ru...
"Over 20 people have been killed after a firefighting system went off "

Second accident in russian Pacific fleet in short time. Couple of months ago there was a fire on Udaloy class Shaposhnikov which killed 2 sailors.


RIP sailors!

[edit on 8-11-2008 by Dave_]

Lets hope they do not start war trials with their subs...

reply to post by Dave_

---

Dave,

This is always a tragedy at sea for any sailors..no matter ..surface boat or U Boat.
Fire is one of the most feared of the hazards of boats and ships.

I have often wondered myself...with gear designed to extinguish the oxygen levels quickly in a space...how hazardous it is to the crews. Especially like the systems I've seen in the galleys. Some kind of Halon I think.

Those tense days around the tragedy of the Kursk...shook the Navy/submarine community around the world...all of them ... for both diesel and nuclear crews know the risks.

In spite of what we here in the west think is our technological prowess....fire is not particular..nor plays favorites. Fire on board a ship or boat is an equal opportunity killer...if we are not on guard.
Even in the yards..on certain jobs and at certain points in the construction we must be very careful about fire.
Thinking to myself...did not the Canadians have a fire on one of their boats..in the last couple of years...and lost some sailors as well??

Bassplyr,
Good to see your post again. It has been awhile. Hope all is well out west.
Just got off work here...raiding the fridge and settling down. Yeah...I like to read Schaden"s posts as well as others who have been around the block a few times. Later olde man!! Thanks,

Orangetom



[edit on 8-11-2008 by orangetom1999]