Disclosure Coming? UFO Invasion and Potential Weapons Scenario on Science Channel

Originally posted by Jay-in-AR

I think that is nearsighted. What say you to the possibility of a species coming here and finding that we are ALREADY mining materials from the earth and they just decide to covertly subjugate us and take our resources?

I would equate that to my dog thinking i want to steal his bone. Sorry if that sounds rude.

[edit on 27-10-2008 by Geoff Capes]

That doesn't sound rude at all. In fact, I would imagine that, if reports are accurate and these things have IQs up to 1,000x that of our own, they could possibly look at us JUST LIKE dogs.

This is where i believe the idea we could be of use to an advanced alien race falls flat on its face. I don't believe we'd be any use whatsoever.

I mean, if we found another planet with humans on it, what WE want to enslave them for? By the time we could physically detect other civ's we would have already created robots probably with good artificial intelligence, that would be only too happy to do our dirty work for us and not only that - they wouldn't get tired or annoyed with us.

I find the idea that we'd be killed far more likely and that speaks volumes to me because i think that in itself is incredibly unlikely. I simply believe that it would have already happened long ago.

IMO, we need to grow up as a race and if there are other advanced races out there, only then will be allowed to join in the fun and games. Reading these threads about "baddies in the sky" and "going to war" just reminds me why we are stuck where we are.

Originally posted by Geoff Capes
reply to post by Gaderel

 

I find the idea that we would be of any use to an alien civilisation capable of carrying out the plan you've just laid out in your post far fetched, to put it mildly. The fact that they can get here in the first place goes completely against that idea.

If thats youre theory, then if we are of no use, then why are they here? Sight seeing? Here to pat the dolphins? See disneyland?

Time and time again, people fail to grasp the implications of technological breakthrough. Just as a quick example .... Robots capable of doing 99% our physical labour will be available to us loooooong before we have the ability get to Alpha Centauri (if it's possible).

scifi authors in the 30's assumed I would get to work by a robotic flying car by the year 2008. Predictions are great, but atleast base them on something.

Is technology itself meant to improve our ethical and moral codes? People get murdered today for the same reasons they got murdered in the Neolithic period. Jealousy, hate, gain, betrayal. Going to the moon and the creation of the pop tart hasnt seem to have curbed our natural failings. Only a fool would assume we alone in the universe have these failings.

At any rate, what the hell do Robots have to do with anything at all.

Enslavement does not have to mean we are out building pyramids for pharaoh. Enslavement means, we no longer as a species determine our destiny in the universe. The every day of joe lunchbox is unlikely to change much, however the future of the human species would forever be in the hands of someone else.

Originally posted by Gaderel
If thats youre theory, then if we are of no use, then why are they here? Sight seeing? Here to pat the dolphins? See disneyland?

Who said they are 100% definitely here?
I don't understand your narrow view of the possibilities of why any number of alien civilisations might be visiting us. We have people who study bugs for christs sake. Maybe those bugs are like you, imagining we want to steal their stash. When really, we are just taking an interest.

Originally posted by Gaderel
scifi authors in the 30's assumed I would get to work by a robotic flying car by the year 2008. Predictions are great, but atleast base them on something.

You're obviously not a great follower of tech progress and that's fine, but don't assume i am not. We will have robots doing 99% of our physical labour before we make it to another star system. Fact.

Originally posted by Gaderel
Is technology itself meant to improve our ethical and moral codes?

Actually it may do just that in the future, yes. As we learn more and more about our biology, our brain, and it's workings, we will gradually learn how to enhance desirable traits and minimize negative ones. This is nothing radical i'm saying here, look it up.

Originally posted by Gaderel
People get murdered today for the same reasons they got murdered in the Neolithic period. Jealousy, hate, gain, betrayal. Going to the moon and the creation of the pop tart hasnt seem to have curbed our natural failings. Only a fool would assume we alone in the universe have these failings.

See my above response. There's no reason an advanced alien race wouldn't have achieved exactly what i describe there. In fact, only one thing needs to happen: increase pleasure. Happy beings are much, much better behaved, friendlier beings.

A video on a somewhat related note to your comment about violence throughout history.

A brief history of violence

Originally posted by Gaderel
Enslavement does not have to mean we are out building pyramids for pharaoh. Enslavement means, we no longer as a species determine our destiny in the universe. The every day of joe lunchbox is unlikely to change much, however the future of the human species would forever be in the hands of someone else.

This is actually the only point you made that i agree with and it's not beyond the realms of possibility. So yes, taken on board. I don't actually think this will be the case at all though, because if there is ONE other race out there, i believe there will be MANY other races and an act of the nature you describe, on this kind of scale ie. enslaving an entire race - wouldn't be tolerated by other advanced races. Again, i'm not saying it's completely impossible but it's not something i believe.

reply to post by Geoff Capes


The military is hoping to soon commission the use of robots to, apparently, hunt down humans. But in the Swiss Alps, they still use Saint Bernards to rescue snowbound humans.

Originally posted by Geoff Capes

Who said they are 100% definitely here?
I don't understand your narrow view of the possibilities of why any number of alien civilisations might be visiting us. We have people who study bugs for christs sake. Maybe those bugs are like you, imagining we want to steal their stash. When really, we are just taking an interest.

I built a hypothesis based on current generally accepted mainstream ufo/abduction/conspiracy lore, if you want to argue that the lore is indeed wrong, thats a different argument entirely. The hypothesis is based on the assumption that its correct. I dont have a narrow view, you simply need to supply more data than just saying "This is far fetched, you are wrong" for me to just go "oh ok, yes you are 100% correct."

You're obviously not a great follower of tech progress and that's fine, but don't assume i am not. We will have robots doing 99% of our physical labour before we make it to another star system. Fact.

I've worked in the technology industry for 15 years, 2 of them for a robotics company that specialized in medical automation. Not fact at all. Assumption. Unless you have been to the future, your prediction is just that, a prediction.

Actually it may do just that in the future, yes. As we learn more and more about our biology, our brain, and it's workings, we will gradually learn how to enhance desirable traits and minimize negative ones. This is nothing radical i'm saying here, look it up.

Another prediction. I dont even have to mention the political and religious opposition such concepts evoke today, let alone in the future when such technology is closer to reality. Or will we be so advanced by then that government and religion will be rendered obsolete. Deus Ex Machina perhaps?

God may well be in the machine, but the devil resides there too.

Your race of genetically engineered deep thinking pacifists, might become victim to someone elses genetically engineered 9 foot tall sociopaths.

See my above response. There's no reason an advanced alien race wouldn't have achieved exactly what i describe there. In fact, only one thing needs to happen: increase pleasure. Happy beings are much, much better behaved, friendlier beings.

That may well be the most naive thing I have ever read.

A video on a somewhat related note to your comment about violence throughout history.

An interesting piece of work, but all percentage based statistically, easy to agree with when you ignore the sheer scale of genocide and warfare in the last century, let alone that which is yet to come which we cannot predict.

Alot of what he describes as ancient tribal practice, is still alive today in many countries. Its easy pat ourselves on the back about how civilized we are, while in the luxury of western society.

This is actually the only point you made that i agree with and it's not beyond the realms of possibility. So yes, taken on board. I don't actually think this will be the case at all though, because if there is ONE other race out there, i believe there will be MANY other races and an act of the nature you describe, on this kind of scale ie. enslaving an entire race - wouldn't be tolerated by other advanced races. Again, i'm not saying it's completely impossible but it's not something i believe.

Hang on. You already pointed out we are worthless to advanced races. Why would other advanced races care if we are enslaved? I dont beat my neighbour up just because he buys a litter of kittens.

Originally posted by Gaderel

Hang on. You already pointed out we are worthless to advanced races. Why would other advanced races care if we are enslaved? I dont beat my neighbour up just because he buys a litter of kittens.

How is it not obvious.... ?

Worthless as in slavery, exploiting us etc

Didn't get the kittens thing to be honest. For that analogy to work you'd have be cruel to them/kill them. Don't know about you, but i'd be pissed off about that... *shrugs*

I'll reply properly tomorrow. I'm off to bed.

I don't have anything to contribute to hypothesizing about what kind of technologies ET might have. There is pretty much an endless possibility of technologies that humans don't know about. On the topic of disclosure coming... I think that process has already begun.

As of 2008, it's my belief that government powers that be around the world have begun a gradual disclosure. I am using 2008 becasue it was in January that i saw my first Larry King ufo special this year( i had seen a couple in '07 but not nearly as many as this year). Yes, we can all thank Stephensville and Dublin, Texas for re-awakening the public. It was after January that the people said "theres sumthin goin on. uuuhhh why are the air force officials lying to us? why doesn't any one know what the hell these are? Lets start asking questions"... All right maybe they didn't say that but you get where i'm going with this? A quick search of youtube or google will bring up the ample pages of video data from that incident alone... CNN, and all the rest of the msm.

Also on top of the major mainstream media coverage that ufo's are recieving there are more networks like Discovery and Science, History chanel, and yes i even saw a ufo show on the local public broadcasting network, coming out of the wood works with weekly shows now. History has UFO Hunters, Discovery has Investigation X and one other show starting every monday soley dedicated to our favorite topic of discussion. (next week is an hour long show on the Nazi UFO connection)

Ok that just focussed on whats coming through all of our tv sets now what about other channels of information. Well theres the net, we all know how much you can find here. And once you wade through the BS there is some interesting information available to people. My personal favorite is the religous channel...... the friggin vatican said it's ok to believe! I love how conveiniant that is!!! We believe in a big invisible guy in the sky who watches all of us and keeps a tab on our sins.... so it's gotta be ok for you guys to believe in little green men, RIGHT??!?!?!? So what else is really necesarry? Any one who is expecting to see the president walk out and give a public address to the people and say"Yeah you guys were right... we lied for 60 years... they're real!" You have to know it's not going to work like that. They are easing people into this so that our fragile little minds don't explode when it finally becomes acceptable that ET IS REAL.

Thats what it really comes down to isn't it?? That we the people aren't ready to know. We couln't handle the truth. Thats why i believe this is gradual. Once ET, and UFO, and GREYS, and all these words and phrases are no longer just escuses to be ridiculed, once people can accept that this is real, well thats when it will "officially" become real. The fact that IT IS already a reality doesn't make a lick of difference becasue the public still has this stigma they associate with the whole topic.

Despite what most people may talk to their buddies about, UFO's, conspiracy, and basically the main topics of discussion on this message board effect every one. Every one at some point in their life has had a curiosity about whats beyond our little blue rock. We are not unique in wondering 'what the eff is out there'? Well we won't have to wait much longer, my friends. My personal feeling about this is that we're all going to know what real truth is in our life times.

p.s. sorry for the scatterbrained writing... been stressed lately.

reply to post by Gaderel


Hi again, going back to what i was saying about a robotic workforce ..

of course it's a prediction, it hasn't happened yet. To say i'm going to click 'post reply' when i finish is only a prediction. I'm very confident in my belief that's all i'm trying to get across. We are moving away from the actual interesting part of the discussion though. The crux of it, is that i believe this level of robotics is far easier to achieve and will come well before our ability to travel faster than light or to use wormholes in order to get to other star systems.. If you flat-out disagree with that, i'd be interested to hear why. I don't think many would agree with you.

Originally posted by CAPT PROTON
Well the aliens never have to land to conquer us. They could sit comfortably up in space with a relatively small fleet and rain asteroids on us at will.

Or they could just wait around a little longer until we destroy ourselves. It's what I'd do... much less risk for them.

Originally posted by Gaderel
Your race of genetically engineered deep thinking pacifists, might become victim to someone elses genetically engineered 9 foot tall sociopaths.

Funny, but no-one said anything about pacifism.

Originally posted by Gaderel
That may well be the most naive thing I have ever read.

You'll have to expand on that if you want proper discussion.

The Sumerian texts go into great detail about our Annunaki creators. Do you think the slave tyrant Enlil-Jehovah was ever going to give up easily...he does want to create his kingdom of god all over again after all (revelations 20). Plenty of humans on Earth have been working with this negative, controlling energy force to enlave the human race body, mind and spirit. They have used religion to help this process along, with the OT demonizing Jehovah's nemesis, Enki (Satan = adversary to god), when Enki was the one who wanted us to be equal to the creator gods in every way.

If there is any "alien attack" I am certain it will be exercised via full compliance with the Annunaki and/or greys on the part of their Illuminati puppets.....

1. Antichrist by 2012...performer of miracles and political shaker and stirrer...he welcomes in the "good guy aliens" and his lovely New Age Religions (see maitreya , share international). He's waiting for a worldwide economic collapse before fully revealing himself on TV with telepathic thought beams into people's heads according to the low down on the website(google share international and the Maitreya)

Lots more natural disasters and wars engineered to fulfill "the great tribulation" prophecy. Maybe a comet even.

2. RAPTURE.....the aliens beam tens of millions up to fulfill "rapture" prophecy.....perhaps these are those who have by then been microchipped, they will be brough back to earth to enter the new kingdom once the dust has settled....easy to trace the chipped sheeple....life continues on in shock and awe down on earth, people wondering "was the bible true after all" while others just think it's an alien abduction

3. SECOND COMING.....Jesus returns to wage war on the entire earth, it's JUDGEMENT DAY folks....only it;s not Jesus and never was, it will be the aliens in cohoots with our very own governments. They'll have weapons to kill the masses which don't do too much damage to buildings so Earth won't be a wasteland after everyone's dead (some may survive if they've fled to remote places)

4. With everyone out of the way and only the chipped, mind controlled sheeple left , the 1,000 years of biblical peace can ensue. god (Enlil)will wipe all their tears away and fix illness and prolong life through genetic engineering.

If there are good aliens out there , perhaps from Enki's faction, they will be construed as our enemies. We will fight them with our own back engineered craft alongside the "bad guys in disguise" aliens we have come to be aquainted with and trust during the Maitreya's ministry.

UFO's have been around for decades, they have been a massive part of the new age build up, part of a big and deceitful plan to win over masses of people...many will fall for it all, especially with the new age world teacher bringing us closer to them than ever before. They have presented us as our friends so if any "good aliens" really DO try to help out, the masses by then will consider THEM the threat .

The bible plan they are following does not mention anyone trying to fight Enlil's "righteous" war from the skies except the people on earth....this does not mean though that someone else might now try to help us. Guess we'll have to see but I'm inclined to think a WAR is coming as happened millenia ago.....read the sumerian tablets and read the Vedas

Originally posted by Geoff Capes
reply to post by Gaderel

 

Hi again, going back to what i was saying about a robotic workforce ..

of course it's a prediction, it hasn't happened yet. To say i'm going to click 'post reply' when i finish is only a prediction. I'm very confident in my belief that's all i'm trying to get across. We are moving away from the actual interesting part of the discussion though. The crux of it, is that i believe this level of robotics is far easier to achieve and will come well before our ability to travel faster than light or to use wormholes in order to get to other star systems.. If you flat-out disagree with that, i'd be interested to hear why. I don't think many would agree with you.

Im not that concerned with finding concensus, noone can force anyone to believe them. I'll just say my piece, and all can make their own decisions.

The robotics industry is a small & curious one and surprisingly stagnant in many ways. It excels in areas where you need repititive tasks performed with precision. Simple, repeatable, known results. You can build in alot of complexity, but as soon as the task changes, you need to retool and retask, simple error correction, and dealing with unknown parameters, are major firm barriers to any robotic systems. ie inflexible. Lets also look at the rigidity of robotic design, we still havent even mastered humanoid models, stability, speed are all incredibly complex to master in a heavy full size device. Some have come close, but throw a set of stairs, a steep incline, an undulating surface, a slippery surface, and your humanoid robotform is going to eat the pavement in most cases. Hubo, Asimo, look great, but their stability and sheer weight(60ish kg from memory) make them a hazard. Humanoid roboforms are rather stagnant in development. MIT have a programme, a few other universities, a few private companies. Its viewed as a novelty by the mainstream robotics industry at large. Now to truely replace human flexibility in the workplace, you need this form, or you are just making yet another niche market roboform(And we have enough of those already).

Now lets look at the problem solving boundaries. Everyone who has used a computerized system know full well that current day systems are responsive to human interaction, especially when face with an error. Things that arent inside normal parameters are all errors to function. This means to move to a truely autonomous system(Not collision avoidance and aversion to swimming in a lake, basic conversation, not throwing hot coffee into your groin), you need artificial intelligence.True intelligent agents, are still incredibly far away. Anyone can programme a set of intelligence mechanisms, but to be truely AI, the system must be able to formulate its own from a set of foundations or fundamentals. We are blessed with a memory to do this from. Because of this, noone can really say when a true AI will be achieved, or even if ever. The creation of a life form, is a hugely complex and serious undertaking.

Professor Johny McCarthy - Stanford 2007
"A few people think that human-level intelligence can be achieved by writing large numbers of programs of the kind people are now writing and assembling vast knowledge bases of facts in the languages now used for expressing knowledge.

However, most AI researchers believe that new fundamental ideas are required, and therefore it cannot be predicted when human-level intelligence will be achieved."

The ability produce Sony Playstations does not make us advanced enough to formulate the foundation principles behind creating a new life form. Its not just technical, its also philisophical and ethical in nature, we as far from it, as we are from interstellar travel, maybe further.

Ill continue in the next post, im running out of space.

Now lets compare the nuts and bolts. The amounts of funding that goes into high energy physics programmes (the LHC alone is in the order of USD8 - 9 billion dollars just for construction let alone maintenance) DWARF the investment in both Robotics and AI development.

This is just ONE facility, and one set of scientists. Hubo was about 300 million over 20 years, and is still a rigid, barely balanced, slow moving, 60kg lump of plastic and gears.

From the levels of investment alone, one can conclude that the rate of research will be accelerated far beyond other disciplines. From this, one can deduce that our chances of finding a means of FTL travel are far greater than achieving AI/Advanced Robotic Forms given the same period of time.

If Robotics and AI development were given the same money, I would be agreeing with you.

Now, getting back on some semblence of topic. For the reasons I outlined my last post.

Robots are irrelevant. We are easily manipulated, lower order of life, capable of simple tasks and problem solving, that noone really cares about, self maintaining, self replicating, self organizing, sacks of water that we are. Robotics vs Biology, Biology usually wins. Secondly, if we are being targetted for our genetic material, that makes us worse than a slave.

It makes us a commodity, nice water fat human livestock. Mooooooooo.

Didn't get the kittens thing to be honest. For that analogy to work you'd have be cruel to them/kill them. Don't know about you, but i'd be pissed off about that... *shrugs*

We kill animals we consider to be pests. We keep animals as pets and expect their obedience. We test chemicals, drugs and cosmetics on many species to benefit only ourselves. We do alot of things to lower life forms without a second thought, and your concept of being cruel doesnt gel at all. If I desex a litter of kittens, I'm doing it for their own good. Cruelty & emotion doesnt come into it, its irrelevant. Self Interest outweighs all.

reply to post by Gaderel


Robotic work force is a sci fi illusion. Sure it possible in technology terms but its real issue is social control.

The mechanism of need-work-provide is what keeps the whole bizarre social experiment in control. Dystopian views of the future are very oppresive but they are not functional.

In any top down society the many outweight the few, in order for the control to be maintained the illusion of functionality and achievement has to exist. If robots had all the jobs and humans had none you would have a society waiting to eplode.

The masses have to be kept within the contraints of the wbe, working as a part of it and "feeling" as if they are involved in it. The poorest class must be balanced by the numbers of middle and upper class, if you allowed the poorest class to swell too much the social tensions would explode and you would have revolution.

Im sure they would like to have robots do everything as its cheaper, but with a massive population to control and manage you simply cannot allow them to become massively detached and resentful otherwise they will crush you with their numbers.

I personally doubt there is a conquest intent by alien beings, but who can say for certain. It could take a good while to travel, even with advanced technology, perhaps we are just seeing recon, before actual forces get here, which could take decades or even centuries.

But saying there was....

We have no idea why they'd be there. To an advanced civilization that probably does have robotics aplenty, I doubt our race is much of a resource, honestly. We tire easy, have high upkeep, and are very intolerant of changes in temperature, atmosphere, etc. So I'm not sure we are such a great resource for any other civilization. The planet itself could be a great resource, for all we know. Perhaps something about the planet would be a huge boon to a race in dire need of something we have.

They could do much like we do in a war, simply bombard us until we surrender. I think Independance Day could be about accurate, until the point where do the heroicy things that save the planet. I don't see that. I do see them obliterating us, if they wanted to.

But personally, I think the galaxy and universe is a lot more complex than we realize. I think there are probably innumerable civilizations, and plenty with advanced technology. I'd guess there is galactic politics, a galactic version of the UN, and so on. Our planet for all we know, could be sitting in the jurisdiction or territory of some alien race, and they are just keeping tabs until they feel we are ready to join the larger community.

Perhaps some are here with ill intent, and others are here to protect us. Perhaps we simply are being studied, and they have a policy to not engage with us, even if they are not too careful about hiding from us (or perhaps there is a lot more of them than we think, and they are doing a great job hiding from us!).

They may just be watching to see what our weapon development is. That is something I'd watch closely, if I were another species. I was always suspicious that Roswell occured not only very close to the location of the first nuclear test, but also very close to the time of it. And then we've reports of ufos over nuclear facilities, and disabling missles, etc.

We can't really know. One can only hope that when they are resting their ability to shut down our nuclear weapon capabilities, they are doing so for reasons of self defense, not conquest. Because if push came to shove, I honestly don't think we would have a chance in hell.

reply to post by fleabit


Agree with that almost word for word.

reply to post by Gaderel


Thanks for the detailed response, i appreciate it. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here, this could easily turn into a lengthy discussion and we both clearly have our opinions. I believe we are on the verge of an explosion in robotics (and AI, we already have lots of narrow AI), as always, time will tell.



[edit on 29-10-2008 by Geoff Capes]

Big bang; gas;stars;planets;life;civilisations;they communicate, form agreements, the Interplanetary Council is formed… I have HEARD OF IT from insiders…there is an Interplanetary Council, and I assume it oversees disputes etc between planets etc. The orion aliens are currently INSIDE the MOON.It is a craft, although heavily disguised. The Orion aliens brought it into orbit when they started interfering with this planet. See Bauval for their connections with the building of the pyramids. They are trying to take over this planet LEGALLY , de facto by controlling the political elites thru secret organisations etc they started here centuries ago, with human helpers. They control the Secret Government. The good aliens are fighting them and trying to protect our freedom. (see ufoevidence The Probable Truth posts buried deep in the listings).

AI still always has its controllers. Sure, I could build an advanced robot to do my work for me, but my work remains.

To me, it would be far more effective (of course presuming that any of this discussion is based in reality) to 1) use robots to do a lot of my interplanetary mining and whatnot but 2) use indigenous populations to do it for me in the case that option is viable.

It is less overhead. Not only that, but you get that power-trip of realizing that you are influencing the development of a lesser species. Talk about a superiority complex.
As far as traveling to other star systems, I can't even guess what that task would require. I mean, from our standards right now, it is impossible. But, at the same time, I have no idea where our scientific advances will take us even THIS YEAR, let alone over the next 500 years.

In any event, like I said before, the question of alien invasion is an inevitable given we are around long enough to see it.