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A question to Christians (not a trick Q, I promise)

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posted on Oct, 26 2008 @ 04:00 AM
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Where in the bible is the evidence that Satan and Lucifer are the same entity? At what point does it refer to both as one, the transition point?

This is a question from ignorance.

[edit on 10/26/2008 by Good Wolf]




posted on Oct, 26 2008 @ 06:18 AM
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reply to post by Good Wolf
 


Isaiah 14: Lucifer Fallen from heaven

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


Revelation 12:12: Devil come down to the earth

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Revelation 12:9 Satan, Dragon, cast to the earth with his angels

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.



posted on Oct, 26 2008 @ 07:51 AM
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It really does not say much about anything that would answer your question.
The word Lucifer comes from the Latin word being substituted for a Greek word that was a translation from a Hebrew word that was actually a name for a Canaanite god, that in turn had been made into a generic term to describe a certain astronomical phenomenon.
The name Satan comes much Later and Describes a global system of evil, as far as I can tell.
Devils are things in the New Testament that are individual spirit creatures who do bad things.

Do a google search on the Canaanite Pantheon, in the texts of Ugarit.
You will find that Lucifer comes from a part of the book of Isaiah that in the Hebrew says, "Helel (bright one) son of Shachar (dawn)".

[edit on 26-10-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Oct, 26 2008 @ 08:53 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Nice informative post, in your oppinion would it be fair to say that the majority of christians are pretty mixed up and ignorant in relation to this lucifer character ?

From what you alone have just written, I'm sure I could be forgiven for coming to a pretty obvious conlusion, that Lucifer is some sort of god with benevolent qualities - Bringer of light / dawn.

No doubt if this thread goes on long enough, Notyourtypical and ilk will chip in with his usual deluded, jesusgod ju ju and how lucifer is a very real personage who inspired you to post on this thread.



posted on Oct, 26 2008 @ 09:26 AM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


Lucifer is some sort of god with benevolent qualities - Bringer of light / dawn.

It is a mixed bag as far as the gods who are named here. The one that is Dawn was a twin of Dusk and they are probably the only true completely beneficent members of the Pantheon.
The other one, who is directly referenced, is a more questionable character who seems to have had unreasonable aspirations stemming from a sense of pride.



posted on Oct, 26 2008 @ 09:32 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 

Actually, 'Satan' is probably older than Lucifer, and even in the Hebrew Bible, was used as a term for a singular entity, not a 'global system of evil': He is the adversary, the accuser, etc- who unwaveringly believes the in the basic baseness and unrepentant nature of man (as exampled in Job).

Just clearing that little bit up. Unfortunately, I am not knowledgeable enough to answer the OPs question. The tendency of the Bible to actively refer to (supposedly non-existent or powerless) deities such as Beelzebub, Baal, Lucifer, etc, is confusing for me as well.


[edit on 26-10-2008 by babloyi]



posted on Oct, 26 2008 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 

...a singular entity, not a 'global system of evil'...
I was thinking specifically about where Jesus sends out the seventy and says, "I see Satan being cast down".
I take this statement as the most definitive verse in the Bible for who or what Satan is.
Jesus is sending out his missionaries to spread His kingdom, in opposition to the evil kingdom of the world.



posted on Oct, 27 2008 @ 12:30 AM
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Here is every Scripture relating to satan Wolf if you want to look it all up ..

www.blueletterbible.org...

Here is the only time the word Lucifer is used..but when the word satan is used it is the same as Lucifer .. He was called Lucifer in heaven I believe and satan once he was cast out ...
That whole chapter tells about him and what happend and why it happened.....
www.blueletterbible.org...
((The link has the whole chapter it tells the whole story ))
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Here is a link to the meaning of that name
www.blueletterbible.org...

(I believe King Neb is symbolic of what happened to Lucifer ..as he was like a tree who was cut down (like it describes lucifer in the concordance in the above link ) ...and he became like the beasts of the field and thats where he had to dwell ....read Daniel 4 ...it is also about Babylon ..
Here it is ....
www.blueletterbible.org...



posted on Oct, 27 2008 @ 01:13 AM
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So how can we really be sure that satan and lucifer are the same entity if its not said.



posted on Oct, 27 2008 @ 01:51 AM
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Did you read the link Wolf ?
It tells who Lucifer is ..he is the same as satan and the devil ...he was Lucifer when he was in heaven and an angel of light .. and when he was cast to earth he became satan the adversary ......
Read that whole chapter in Isa ...its all in there ...


This is what the concordance says about satan .

1) adversary (one who opposes another in purpose or act), the name given to

a) the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate adversary of God and Christ

1) he incites apostasy from God and to sin

2) circumventing men by his wiles

3) the worshippers of idols are said to be under his control

4) by his demons he is able to take possession of men and inflict them with diseases

5) by God's assistance he is overcome

6) on Christ's return from heaven he will be bound with chains for a thousand years, but when the thousand years are finished he will walk the earth in yet greater power, but shortly after will be given over to eternal punishment

b) a Satan-like man

(He will posess the AntiChrist (satan incarnate) at midtrib)



posted on Oct, 27 2008 @ 02:47 AM
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Eh, I'm not seeing it. The major meaning of Satan is adversary and Lucifer is "The light Bearer/Morning Star". The story entails the fall of Lucifer but I think to say that they are the same being is a bit of a preconceived conclusion seemingly not based on what actually is written.

What scriptures refer to the beginnings/origin of Satan?

[edit on 10/27/2008 by Good Wolf]



posted on Oct, 27 2008 @ 09:02 AM
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Lucifer = "light-bearer"

1) shining one, morning star, Lucifer

a) of the king of Babylon and Satan (fig.)

2) (TWOT) 'Helel' describing the king of Babylon

from H1984 (in the sense of brightness)
1) to shine

a) (Qal) to shine (fig. of God's favour)

b) (Hiphil) to flash forth light

2) to praise, boast, be boastful


a) (Qal)

1) to be boastful

2) boastful ones, boasters (participle)

b) (Piel)

1) to praise

2) to boast, make a boast

c) (Pual)

1) to be praised, be made praiseworthy, be commended, be worthy of praise

d) (Hithpael) to boast, glory, make one's boast

e) (Poel) to make a fool of, make into a fool

f) (Hithpoel) to act madly, act like a madman

www.blueletterbible.org...

Notice FIGURATIVELY satan ...



posted on Oct, 27 2008 @ 09:09 AM
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Figuative isn't evidence. There must be something better than that. You could make anything figuratively be anything else if you wanted to.



posted on Oct, 27 2008 @ 09:45 AM
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Just the fact that it says ..HOW ARE THOU FALLEN from heaven
Proves he is the same as satan ..

Like I said that is the only place where he is called Lucifer ...
In the garden he is called serpent ..
In the rest of Scripture he is called satan,the devil,the dragon,the adversary,decieiver,accuser etc ...

I do not know where he is mentioned in Genesis during creation ..he was the Chief of all the angels and I am pretty sure he had fallen from heaven before the garden or he would not have been in the garden with them in order to tempt Adam and Eve ...
Notice he was already a beast living among the beasts at that time ..(So his fall had to have occured prior to the garden of eden ....
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
But here is more

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.


Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Sure doesnt sound like much of a light bearer if his end is hell ?


Wolf Figuratively means the LITERAL MEANING ..non methaphorical ...non spiritual meaning ....the LITERAL FIGURATIVE meaning .....
What do you mean it does not mean anything ...

Ok sorry I couldnt be more help Wolf ..
Maybe others can help more than I did ..

[edit on 27-10-2008 by Simplynoone]

[edit on 27-10-2008 by Simplynoone]



posted on Oct, 27 2008 @ 09:53 AM
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reply to post by Simplynoone
 


Now that is much better, they are not identified as one but rather as parallels. So I guess that's as good as it gets.


Just the fact that it says ..HOW ARE THOU FALLEN from heaven
Proves he is the same as satan ..


No it doesn't, it merely suggests that at best.

[edit on 10/27/2008 by Good Wolf]



posted on Oct, 27 2008 @ 04:08 PM
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Man do you even take time to read genesis or revelations or read the links. Da. It does link them together. Like they said already. Lucifer was a Archangel in heaven. And says it does link them together because God changed his name from Lucifer to Satan. Satan is a fallen angel from heaven who was Lucifer. If you are you can see the links.



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