Is ATS proof of the dumbing down of America?

To be honest, I only really read the OP and a few in between the first and last page here, but I did a quick ctrl+f search and found no mention of what annoys me most about these forums (or any forums online, really).

Why do people, feel the need, to use commas, like this, sentence? Or references to "Mar's" or anything that ends in "s" having an apostrophe?

Honestly, if I notice these things in an OP I just X out of the window.

reply to post by Magnivea


I find myself overusing commas, too, all the time. Dunno why. I think it's an attempt to translate the pauses and emphasis that occur in spoken speech to a written form.

Sometimes, when I'm not actually using commas to delineate subclauses, I find that things flow much better when they're used as a 'split-point' to make separate sentences.

Here's one theory -- we've all seen question and answer shows, where politicians drone on and on, not really pausing in their speaking much, or pausing mid-sentence and then continuing directly on to the next, joining things together in an attempt to squeeze as much content into the time the interviewer gives them, avoiding breaks where the next question can be asked, or another person might enter the discussion. Perhaps hearing this so often is affecting our speech patterns?

Did you even read my post? I don't mean to call you out, but "do to", seriously? I know you have to be aware of the difference between "do" and "due", so maybe you could shed some more light on what causes this? I somewhat agree with you that spelling and grammar shouldn't used to judge intelligence, but maybe it could be used to judge their laziness or ability to clearly think through what they are talking about.

The absence of periods, commas, and capitalization bothers me more than misspelled words. These omissions are proof of laziness. Simple puntuation is one of the first taught rules of writing. What the lazy author needs to know is that most people won't read a post lacking punctuation. Right or wrong, assumptions are made about the worthiness of the post.

I'm not trying to be a snob or ruffle any feathers; I've just spent a little time reading scans of letters sent during WWII, and it is a bit shocking to compare the literacy of that generation with ours.

I totally agree with you. In the distant past, reading and writing were limited to the wealthy and the clergy. As reading and writing spread to the other classes, people took pride in their ability to do this and wanted it to be correct. Today, this ability is taken for granted. Laziness has led to the dumbing down of America. So, yes, I agree with you.

[edit on 10/26/2008 by Aislin]

Ur contenshun dat the internets n ats is makking us americans dumb is retodded. Go away!

reply to post by maus80


To answer the OP in a manner that is fair and with merit, Jphish hit it right on the nail.

Originally posted by JPhish
i believe an individuals' intelligence should never be "called into question" do to grammatical errors.

you should also realize that for some of the people you're speaking of, english is their second language.

He said some, not all.

I have seen within the pages of our forums, numerous typos, including my own.

I rllo ovr the errers lik nuthing happned.

ATS is proof that free speech is alive and well.

Peace

reply to post by maus80


I agree - sometimes it's difficult for me to follow a post or understand what is trying to be conveyed when the spelling is bad and the punctuation is way off. Sometimes I have to read a post more than a few times before it starts to make sense to me, simply because the words run together, the comma is missing or the poster has decided not to consider the reader when he/she is writing.

I simply can't comment if I can't comprehend the point trying to be made.

I'm a librarian and a writer, so when it comes to correct grammar and spelling, I'm a bit of a nut about it - but I know I make my share of mistakes too (thank goodness for spell check!), so I try to overlook a lot of it.

My husband is dyslexic and he has extreme difficulty with spelling, grammar, writing, etc., but he's very smart, so I also realize that sometimes spelling and grammar have no bearing on someone's intelligence.

reply to post by maus80


I would like for you to show me (I'm not trying to disrespect you here) for who English its first language and for who it is not.

I go everywhere in the net and I see people rushing to write things, because they are so passionate about it, without checking their spelling. Maybe they don't have time, maybe they are not very skillful with the keyboard.

You are committing the same crime that a lot of people do.When you speak with some one that has an accent, that doesn't mean that the person is stupid or wouldn't be able to understand you, it just means that that person was smart enough to learn a second or third language after certain age.

I, in the other hand, check my spelling and have my auto-spell check on at all times. Why? Because English is my second language.

If you want to see when some one is dumb (as smart as that person is) or pretend to be dumb, all you have to do is listen/read to what they are saying.

Being smart is not the same as being wise or even opened minded.

So, when you say that people are becoming more and more stupid based on their language spelling, it's not really fair for people like me.
People show their stupidity with what they say and do, and one has to be careful not to mistake one for the other because one could become or be what we hate the most.

Their are roughly 500,000 words in the english language.
Most adults use the same 1,200 over and over again.
An 18 month old learns about 1,200 words in the next 12 months of there live.
So laziness and starving to death vocabularily in a garden of plenty is the cause.

There are a couple of misspelled words in this post.

Education or the lack of quality of education in the United States is showing. We are, because of this, developing our own languages and the newer forms of communication, texting, email and culturally generated wordsmithing is being assimilated into formal communication.

Advertising uses the new language to gain the subculture markets, which are massive. This in turn embeds even deeper the alternative word usage in our culture at large also, diluting the strict usage the machine wants us to use to be able to understand and manage us. Dictionaries are like the old bible you put in the bookshelf and never use.

Education in the US was developed by a government sanctioned effort, and the task given to people who where part of the new industrialist economy.

After WWII and manufacturing was becoming the main economic engine, it was clear that the manufacturing industries needed good workers, able to take direction, less capacity for independent thinking, so Arts and other such educative subjects where diminished by the educational structure. Three Rs (readin', 'ritin', and 'rithmetic) were the staples. Sports, Arts and other sensibilities, all part of a real spectrum of educational nutrients, where set below priorities needed. What happened is what we are seeing in failures currently in our society.

Like vitamins, if we reduce a mineral, or specific element from our diets, we end up with critical systemic failures. Without certain minerals you would go blind, lame or otherwise eventually experience a compromised overall health.

Arts for example teaches creative problem solving, invention and all that goes with creative awareness. Sports teach teamwork and play (another creative tool). Qualities we need in government, industry and our serious problem solving sciences we are depending on to now survive. Energy, Environment, Governance and Social Crisis, all need creative thinking. We have not trained ourselves for this. So we now suffer.

Our youth cannot now afford education, so they are educated by our culture, our technologies and our subjective religions, nationalism, corporate and consumerist ideologies. So, we are seeing change in how we communicate naturally.

Expect this trend to continue until we change it.

KWIM?

ZG

[edit on 10/26/2008 by ZeroGhost]

I have found it belittling and counterproductive to stop in the middle of a serious thread to point out someone's error of words. It throws off the thread and adds no purpose to the discussion except to be patronizing. I just think to maintain a discussion when one chimes in about the lack of knowledge of someone else is not easy to restart the discussion because it usually turns into a fight. I once typed mute instead of moot and somebody just had to pop in and mock me. This is when you just want to yell 'grow up!' I just ignored it and went on but I have seen many times where it will derail the thread all together.

This said, I do find major run-on sentences and lack of punctuation an annoyance. But just ignore it.

As far as the dumbing down of America... well, that seems to not need any help.

Off topic a bit: I was shopping one day and overheard a conversation a teen girl was having via her cell phone and I thought she was speaking another language (I graduated in '97; I didn't think I was that out of it). Granted it was only her side of the conversation I was hearing but it sounded like a secret language or something. Finally I figured out she was talking in text codes (Is there a name for this new language?). It was a surreal moment.

I admit that from time to time I've needed to look up the definition for some of these abbreviated phrases in order to understand a post.

Also, please one and all, I invite you to scrutinize my post. I am sure there are some language errors in here somewhere.





I can take it.

Originally posted by maus80
Everyone should realize that when you are posting about a topic you feel passionately about, it is hard to take you seriously if your writing abilities barely rival those of an early grade school student.

All I can say after 23 years in the academic system is that some of the worst spellers I have encountered have been university professors...so, being a poor speller doesn't mean y'er stoopid, but I'll grant you that it doesn't enhance what you're saying either.

And the kids coming up? Even worse, and spellcheck doesn't help a bit.

Eyem huked on fonix, myself.

Sometimes it's a matter of people not being bothered to fix their mistakes.
Sometimes it's a matter of people that are too familiar with ''Br33zah'' / ''SMS'' / w/e language.
Sometimes it's intentional.

In which case you get a ''typing'' pattern which looks something like this:

I herd u dun leik mudkipz dat spel leik dis. But I dun leik dat also, cuz u no, 4 rly, lol. Jus dun go dissing mah bro's cuz dey spel leik dis alrite?

I have a friend on x-fire whom I speak and type phonetic english with, from a dutch perspective, as it is our ''fun'' language.

Thankfully the age of br33zah's is over, for those that don't know what it looks like.

Simply put it's random capitalization (Or capitalisation, british or american english?) with a barrage of spelling errors thrown in.

reply to post by JPhish


My mothertongue is Afrikaans, and i am often requested by English-speaking people, to help them with their spelling (NOTE: the "i" is deliberately in lowercase).

It is not the .net, and in most cases, not the intelligence (all people have difficulty with spelling sometimes; which is the main reason i often need to edit my posts right after posting).

It is merely a case of being too lazy to consult a dictionary or a thesaurus. Gee, guys, they're out there, on the .net, with all their answers they want to share with you!

And there is a very good reason that the printed versions are still available. If you cannot spell the word, or do not know its meaning, it's a good place to page through and better your spelling, too!

Originally posted by fmcanarney
Their are roughly 500,000 words in the english language.
"There" "English." It's the name of the language.

Most adults use the same 1,200 over and over again.

An 18 month old learns about 1,200 words in the next 12 months of there live.
"18-month-old" "their lives" or "its life."

So laziness and starving to death vocabularily in a garden of plenty is the cause.

There are a couple of misspelled words in this post.

Sorry, i just thought the last line was a challenge. Did i miss something? (NOTE: i use the self-referral "i" as a lower case; linguistically wrong, but it's a faith-thing for me)

So, how did we fare in the test?....

reply to post by maus80


From what I've noticed, it's the people who type the fastest that make the most mistakes. Not everyone so meticulously rechecks their post and not everyone has an auto spellchecker. Which is kind of unthoughtful of the forum and the content taking up space, when you think about it. It's not like it's a chat room in here. Some people come in just to browse content, maybe learn about something.

Here is an alternate idea to think about. Language is not a stagnant thing. It constantly evolves and over time the language we knew becomes something completely different. For example: Chaucer was the written in Old English, which if you have read it, resembles less English and more German/French/Latin. English today evolved over time, thanks in part to travel, increased literacy, standardized spellings, and dictionary. Granted some of the English on the internet is cringe worthy, but you could also be watching the next evolution of English too. Where Your, You’re are interchangeable and interpreted by the context of what they are saying. The same with There, their and they’re…
I’m not saying that I like reading things that aren’t up to current English standards, but at the same time, I think it isn’t reasonable to think that (based on history) we should discount the idea that “Net English and slang ect” isn’t going to change the evolution of the language on the whole.

Folks, it's all about communication and how clear we want to be understood.

We don't talk like characters in a Shakespearean play, because language evolved and changed as needs became more important than rules. Rules as such are just there like retainer walls in a sand box. As we grow and expand, so too the limits imposed before.

Change is what is happening. "Resistance is futile." Borg, STNG.

To be upset for punctuation is just your own resistance. Did you understand what was said? Is not that the important thing?

Now if someone goes so far in their innovation that we cannot understand them, or take them wrong, don't you think they or we will adjust? This is just a bit of sloshing over the rim as things evolve. It will keep a balance naturally. There is no danger that some day rampant change will have us all not understanding each other. A funny idea really.

The way in which we communicate WILL change however forever. As the World Wide Web becomes more globally coherent, all different languages will become one. Personal electronics are going toward video communication too. Not just text messaging, voice mail and beeps, music and sounds. Video messaging will modulate our communication methods even more. People will be able to add graphics, symbols, modulate and mix music and sound in their devices in the same way we do with email. Avatars, Video FX, Sound modulation, and even animated sigs will become part of the culture. It is a given for those of us who look out from the shores of technology and communication.

I'm agnostic about communication, because I am an artist by birth and recognize expression is individual and having potential to express with more than the sum of the rules. (I just modified a saying to make a point. Did you see that?)

Understanding is the goal of communication. My grandfather did not understand my slang when I was a kid, but he loved me and understood what I meant, irregardless of the rules. Is there a message in that?

ZG

Originally posted by maus80
I know this board is used by people all over the world, but it's usually obvious when someone posting here speaks English as their first language.

Firstly, you ARE being a snob...and your post contains numerous "grammatical" errors...

Some of the members of ATS may have challenges regarding spelling or grammar, but they should not be judged because of their mistakes...

Many of these same members bring up very relevant topics and arguments which enrich our site...

Also, are we writing novels here? No, we are posting comments and adding value...I, personally, do not have the time to go back and edit posts which few will read...Perhaps you do have the time...

Also, I have always followed the axiom, "Whoever complains the most about a thing is the most guilty of the thing"...

Additionally, "American" is NOT a language...English is a language...as I am sure many of our members would quickly point out...

Regarding conspiracy theories, et al, they do exist...whether you like it/believe it or not...

Originally posted by maus80
I am NOT a grammar/spelling elitist/snob, and my spelling and grammar are definitely not the greatest, but I still cringe when reading a lot of the threads here.

Do people really not know the difference between "you're" & "your" anymore?

Your are really are a grammer elitist snob!! ZOMG.

Also in addition to. I think; this be the case, four, all forums. Internationally two.

Also...I always use "..." between sentences, which, I believe is NOT proper grammar...But, it generally makes it easier to read my posts...I think...