Is ATS proof of the dumbing down of America?

nevermind...

[edit on 26-10-2008 by Annie Mossity]

The Internet is its own beast. I try not to judge people or their intelligence based on their poor grammar skills. First, I’ll admit that I live off of others poor punctuation and grammar skills (day job teaching college writing review classes), so if high schools sent perfect students, I’d be out of a job. However, I do feel frustrated that they do not know the difference between words like do/due and there/their and your/you’re. But, that’s a mild irritation when compared to their lack of motivation to “learn” and to “read,” especially from a book.

But in regards to people posting on this board, I want to point out that poor grammar is not always a sign of poor intelligence. As you mentioned in your OP, some people have difficulties because of English as a second language, which is understandable/forgivable. Also, English has different standards (European vs. American), so we can ignore those differences, too. What we are left with are the seemingly juvenile posts. Sometimes, these post lack care in spelling/grammar AND content. These posts I ignore. However, I have seen intelligent thoughts riddled with mistakes. I do not assume that person is stupid.

Once, I had a student failing my class. His essays were always short and lacked argumentation as well as contained poor grammar. I finally pulled him aside to find out why he wasn’t learning when all of his classmates had improved. I discovered that he was an engineering student. He was extremely intelligent, but he didn’t understand any of this “stuff” and why he couldn’t just state a few facts and be done with the essay. He said, give me numbers, and I’m happy. So, I learned a long time ago not to judge a person’s intelligence based on his/her grammar. Can it be irritating? Sometimes. But, I suck at math….does that make me stupid? I think not.

And, I'll ignor your type-os if you ignor mine

I don't think it's a lack of ability...

Not nearly so much as a combination of factors, browsers that don't have spell check, attempting to write posts while tending to children, working (in my case) or whatever else is going on.

It's just not school, what this is, really is conversation, most of are simply...talking and going at it fast.

I love ats, but does it carry the importance in my day among all things I must do, to go back and check for typos and punctuation? I'm not being graded, I don't stand to make money and lol, it's essentially anonymous, I won't be getting recognition.

If I notice gross errors I'll correct them, but.. they simply come as often, as if I was talking I'd have a stutter or slip up, ever few sentences when talking fast.

and the time in the day, to carry on a simple, multiple conversations and go back through them all and correct mistakes

That time, at least for me barely exists

golly gosh... I'd go broke or my kids would wander off or worse...

I have discovered only very recently that Firefox underlines my spelling mistakes, but it doesn't offer the correction so sometimes still some slip through

But I mean, what could I do? Treat every post like a thesis, cite everything, correct the whole thing.

Many of us make the effort to one degree or another, but I am sure mostly, people are doing like myself, many things at one time...


For me, Ats is my water cooler, I work on the net, often I'm alone when doing so, and in essence my posts are long bathroom breaks to distract myself...

If i don't get back to work between them I'll loose go broke, so I have limitations in how intensely I can focus on trivial details and am happy if I get the point across

reply to post by maus80


I agree with the Op on many of the points regarding deplorable spelling, grammar and punctuation on this forum though I don't think it's a 'dumbing down' of just one country. It's happening everywhere in the first world... with the younger generations at least.

As far as the adults go on this forum, there really is NO excuse! Time for many here to buy dictionaries!

IRM

I agree with you insofar as that it is not helpful to promoting whatever they are posting about, if the OP doesn't have a good command of the English language. To be honest, it's one of the things that distinguishes, for me at least, what's good quality and what's bad quality material within the post itself.

Tendo em consideração o SEU grau académico, estou certo que com facilidade poderá entender esta humildes palavras de um mero espectador deste Forum.

Assim sendo e na certeza de que desculpará quaisquer lapsos, solicito o seu perdão se eventualmente cometi erros gramaticais quando escrevendo no seu ideoma natal.

Estou certo que o mais importante é a partilha de ideias, teorias, devaneios, duvidas e certezas na tentativa de juntos chegarmos mais perto da verdade.
Participar é fundamental, perdoar essencial, ajudar indispensável, este o meu ponto de vista e a minha razão de ser e estár.
Quero acreditar que estas são igualmente as suas motivações, se assim não é, e no mais correcto calão Português...............

Vai te foder meu cabrão do caralho.

Atentamente

O je

reply to post by Lastone


I agree with what you are saying, and i definitely wasn't implying that anyone should refrain from posting here because of their spelling or anything. It definitely is more important to share ideas and information here than get hung up on spelling and grammar.

I was only trying to explore a possible link between the degeneration of those things and a desire from TPTB to create a duller, less thoughtful, and more easily controlled population.

Originally posted by maus80
reply to post by ninthaxis

 

I agree that these things may be notoriously hard to learn for someone for whom English isn't their first language, but these are things I was taught very thoroughly in grade school. I really don't see how anyone could confuse "you're" with "your", but it seems to be an epidemic.

I don't understand how people can make that mistake either. However, I occasionally make that very same mistake myself despite going to a grammar school, having had a university education and even holding secretarial qualifications. It's nothing to do with ignorance or even stupidity but more to do with how people type.

When I type I make mistakes I wouldn't ever make if I was to write the same sentence with a pen. I'm literally banging out the words as quick as they're forming in my mind. For some reason, homonyms appear to be amongst the first casualties in my keyboard blitzkriegs.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Good Sir,

In the spirit of this thread, I feel it necessary to point out that 'your' and 'you're' are actually homophones, rather than hononyms.

As I'm sure everybody knows, homophones are words that are pronounced the same but spelled differently.



I'm only messing about...before anyone starts throwing dictionary definitions around.

My point is...why are we being so pedantic?

This is intellectual elitism. And anyone claiming that it alters the quality of a post is just being a language snob - pure and simple.

Language is, as I've said before, about communication and to see people being so prescriptive saddens me.

To place less value on an individual poster's worth because they do not follow the rule that someone else decided - quite arbitrarily - to say is right, is just plain wrong.

On a site where following rules blindly is frowned upon?

Get down from you're (still makes sense dont it?) high horses and chill out. It doesn't really matter.

ATS is not an academic journal. It is a website. People from all over the world, with all education levels post here. What do you say to dyslexic posters?

"Sorry, your post is not as valued as another's becuase you can't spell properly and your use of grammar does not conform to my own use of so-called Standard English, which is nigh on impossible to define anyway."

Ludicrous.

Please, get over yourselves.

Peace,

MGGG



To

[edit on 26-10-2008 by machinegun_go_go]

Everything is in a constant state of flux for better or worse, of course.

On þy ylcan gere worhte se foresprecena here geweorc be Lygan .xx. mila bufan Lundenbyrig. Þa þæs on sumera foron micel dæl þara burgwara, ond eac swa oþres folces, þæt hie gedydon æt þara Deniscana geweorce, ond þær wurdon gefliemde, ond sume feower cyninges þegnas ofslægene. Þa þæs on hærfeste þa wicode se cyng on neaweste þære byrig, þa hwile þe hie hira corn gerypon, þæt þa Deniscan him ne mehton þæs ripes forwiernan.

members.tripod.com...
Anglo-Saxon

Now I really feel dumb

pedantic?

I love this word.


Someday civilization as we know it will be wiped off the face of the earth and the few that survived ancestors may very well forget everything their ancestors knew,

Back to the beginning might not be so bad.

Blame texts messaging


[edit on 103131p://bSunday2008 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Old English is extremely interesting. Thank God we got rid of most of the inflections, eh?

You should spend some time getting your head around it. It's a fasinating area of the past to study.

Peace,

MGGG


[edit on 26-10-2008 by machinegun_go_go]

Originally posted by machinegun_go_go
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

Old English is extremely interesting. Thank God we got rid of most of the inflections, eh?

You should spend some time getting your head around it. It's a fasinating area of the past to study.

Peace,

MGGG


[edit on 26-10-2008 by machinegun_go_go]

NO doubt, I was checking out the of evolution of the English language.
webspace.ship.edu...

reply to post by Stormdancer777


That site gives you a nice overview actually.

Isn't Beowulf just fantastic? I often show that to my A-Level students when they begin the language change module and they are just blown away by how different it is to the English they use today. Their first reaction is that it's not English.

It really does reinforce just how much things change over time though, doesn't it?

People shouldn't oppose it.

Peace,

MGGG

reply to post by maus80


Ok... but !!

"I was only trying to explore a possible link between the degeneration of those things and a desire from TPTB to create a duller, less thoughtful, and more easily controlled population."

Maybe, just maybe .... it is because more and more people are starting to question recent events... looking for unswers, all over the world. Maybe the simple "JOE" is starting to believe that Goverment and media information isn't the truth.
Maybe people are waking from a deep sleep. They/we have many questions... many thoughts...and many doubts.
Many of us, that would never think about looking for answers in ATS or GLP are doing it....
What once was a theory or a lunatic conspiracy... is starting to look more and more like a reality...

Exemple:

I'm from Portugal... I never had english classes. I had French...

I had to learn English from movies, books, music....

I'm doing my best and learning how to write it ... doing less and less mistakes every day. To talk in English is one thing, writing dow your thoughts and emotions is another.
So.... be patient... helpful and understandful....

All the best.

I kinda have to agree with the O.P. I'm no grammar expert myself and my own grammar and spelling i struggle with because i have Dyslexia. But i have noticed a General "dumbing" down of spelling for instance all these new generation of kids now Texting everything. Typing U instead of you etc. Even my Boss sends me emails in this kind of context. I does make me a bit unwary.


(edit: fixed for spelling errors )

[edit on 26-10-2008 by Bringer]

I'm not claiming this is a conspiracy, but I would just like to vent a little about a particular grammar nit-pick that constantly annoys me:

'lose' is not spelled 'loose'

Yes, there too different words, folks.

reply to post by maus80


While posting most people dont give a care as long as their point is gotten to the person intended. Look at chats these days everything is in abrveviated form!
Now if these same people where to write a business letter etc. it would most certainly be at the height of their grammer skills, not what they quickly slam down on a keyboard to people who they know dont care, as long as they can read it.
xoxo
that means kiss hug kiss hug

I agree with the OP and it's something that is very annoying to me as well.
I often see people who don't capitalize or punctuate their sentences and it's really hard on the eyes to read, and sometimes understand.
Many people don't realize the importance of typing correctly.
First of all, whether you agree with this or not, most people will take your words with more validity if you type them correctly.
If you take the time to type the words incorrectly, thereby giving your meaning 50% validity, then why not just take a few extra seconds to check the grammar to give it a full 100% impact on all who read?
I've seen people say something in a thread and then someone else says the exact same thing except words it differently and uses correct grammar, and that's the person who gets all the kudos.
Secondly, English is already such a limited language and it's sometimes difficult to get your meaning across. Most arguments online are caused by misunderstandings which by and large are caused by people not knowing how to say what they want to say. Part of the problem is reading comprehension, as sadly America falls drastically behind in this, but a good portion of this could be solved just by using the correct words and grammar.

So don't just shrug aside those 12 years of Hell you went through. At least use the first four years, where you should have learned capilization and punctuation.

Originally posted by machinegun_go_go
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Good Sir,

In the spirit of this thread, I feel it necessary to point out that 'your' and 'you're' are actually homophones, rather than hononyms.

Isn't a homophone a type of homonym?

In linguistics, a homonym is one of a group of words that share the same pronunciation but have different meanings...

...A homophone is a type of homonym, although sometimes homonym is used to refer only to homophones that have the same spelling but different meanings.