If socialism is bad, it's time to end the Public School System

reply to post by Skyfloating


Gah, if I could only remember a talk I once listened to on TEDTALKS. It was essentially about what you say, in revolutionizing the concept of education solely by understanding the process itself in a better way.

I am 101% for this.

This is good stuff



....


this is a joke, right?

The OP just brought up a fantastic point against Universal Healthcare. Do you see how poorly Public Schooling is ran? Now just imagine if it was healthcare!

Capitalists know that some things government ran (schooling, post office, military) is fine and necessary so we can get kids into school and for security purposes. But the truth of the matter is that if these things were privately run, there would be less wasteful spending and things would actually be better (if you had the money).

This is why healthcare ran by the government should not happen in this country. Keep government involvement at a minimum.

reply to post by RetinoidReceptor


As the OP, you came to the opposite conclusion. So you are telling me that healthcare should only be available to those who can afford it in this country??? And if the school system is broken, instead of calling it a failure, I would suggest that you fix it!!!! I also hope you have a ton of money set aside just in case you lose your health insurance and you get sick, you'll need it!!!

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

As the OP, you came to the opposite conclusion. So you are telling me that healthcare should only be available to those who can afford it in this country??? And if the school system is broken, instead of calling it a failure, I would suggest that you fix it!!!! I also hope you have a ton of money set aside just in case you lose your health insurance and you get sick, you'll need it!!!

I do not think healthcare should only be available to those who can afford it. That doesn't mean I think the government should RUN healthcare. If the United States cut income taxes (and massively cut government spending) for the purpose of companies providing healthcare to their employees, wouldn't that work? And if the company does not give healthcare, the government can then buy healthcare privately with that income tax that would have been given back to the business to pay for their workers healthcare. That should provide all WORKING legal people with healthcare through the private sector which usually ALWAYS works better in this country than government ran things (such as schools).

im a product of public school, and i think that i got a pretty good quality education... like anything else... it is what you make of it.... my family would not have been able to send me to school if we had to pay...inner city schools are an issue that i know nothing about... but there are plenty of successful people that have risen above that.... i would tend to think that the inner city problem starts with the gangsta (white or black) mentality and crime... if people see that there is a way for a local to be successful other than being unlawful they might try...

reply to post by RetinoidReceptor


And what if you have a condition that prevents you from working? And that 'money' that the McCain camp is touting as the solution is made up for with massive cuts to Medicare, so I guess your Grandparents will just have to get by with less health coverage.

The Public School system worked fine for many years, by the way. It's only been since the 80's since it's gone to hell. So why don't we fix it, and our kids? I have made this point earlier, so I won't go any further.

And what if you have a condition that prevents you from working?

Then those intricacies can be dealt with. But let me tell you something. A lot of the people who get welfare...they can work. I know quite a few free loaders myself and they will all get healthcare at the expense of the working people. Even though they basically already do through medicaid.

And that 'money' that the McCain camp is touting as the solution is made up for with massive cuts to Medicare, so I guess your Grandparents will just have to get by with less health coverage.

I don't know what you are talking about. Quite frankly I think McCain is an imbecile. I also don't believe in Social Security or Medicare. Why should the government support you when you are old? Aren't you supposed to prepare for your future on your own?

The Public School system worked fine for many years, by the way. It's only been since the 80's since it's gone to hell. So why don't we fix it, and our kids? I have made this point earlier, so I won't go any further.

I think the public school system is not horrible. I think it lies more with the children who would rather play video games and their parents who couldn't care less.

[edit on 25-10-2008 by RetinoidReceptor]

Socialism must be the most intentionally demonized eco-political concept ever developed. I am not a political science major but I do know enough to know that it has been abused and misused by just about everyone.

American propaganda has for decades associated socialism with communism in part due to the Soviet Union and China calling themselves socialistic when in fact they were communistic. In communism everything is state owned while socialism is a mixture of communism and capitalism. In socialistic countries only heavy industry and critical infrastructure is state owned while everything else is indeed privately owned.

In pure capitalism everything is private including utilities, airlines, shipping, railroads, hospitals and healthcare. I find this troublesome since competion in these sectors is for the most part not healthy. In the pursuit of providing lower rates and stealing customers, firms have been known to skip on maintaince, cut down on staff, cut down on wages, and just about every operating cost thus jeopardizing our lives and the overall quality of service. I am not blaming the firms since they need to show profit rather I am blaming the ultra-capitalistic system which encourages cut-throat behavior.

As for healthcare the US and Australia are the only countries I know not to have national healthcare implemented. The justification is that the quality of service will suffer. How ironic is it that when millions can't afford basic treatment to begin with?

Now some people complain about public school systems? Lol, I guess millions of poor kids are not entitled to a basic education, nevermind high school and college. The same is true in third world countries! If your poor and your family needs you in the farm you will be robbed of any decent future. Talk about taking the country backwards.......

I really think this is down to Geography.

Nearly ALL of Europe has a Socialistic system of some sort or another and it WORKS and we are doing okay thankyou (current global meltdown permitting).

The US system of you can only have it if you can afford it is NOT the norm in the civilised world.

WE in Europe look after our poor and needy as should a civilised and caring society.

When are you anti-socialist policy people gonna get your heads from out of your own arses?

reply to post by Wotan


With all due respect pure socialism is dying away in europe. Europe was socialistic a few decades ago but now we are seeing a turn towards pure, unfettered capitalism. In this system the market corrects itself and profit is everything...bush style!

[edit on 25-10-2008 by EarthCitizen07]

Freedom ,or more importantly liberty, are the foundations of america. The freedom to not pay for someone elses problems and faults, or the liberty to help others when possible. No goverment can mandate what you do, think, or belive. Just because something makes sence in a city environment doesn't mean you should force those needs or values on anyone outside of your own local areas. Lets use public radio(NPR,ect), and public television(PBS). They are both publicly funded programs, however they run solely based off of DONATIONS from you and me. If you like the service, you give what you can...not what some goverment has decided and the mandated as a requirement. The US government was run in a similar fashion until about the last 100 or so years.

People of the US(and the world) have the inborn rights as laid down by our constitution and bill of rights. If a family decides they want to farm, and live off the land, that is thier right as humans. And equally, someone who decides to take up residence in a large city has that right. Now, the problems that arise from each path in life, are the problems of the people who took thier specific paths willingly. When a family/'s in a city force those who homeschool, or better yet, allow thier children an apprenticeship in a real skill to pay for someones elses education, thats wrong. It goes against the founding priciples of the country. We are a constitutional republic NOT a democracy. Democracy(or socialized democracy) allows the majority to RULE the minority. THAT IS NOT FREEDOM OR LIBERTY!

You cant mandate unwilling participation upon anyone, whether it be through tax,law, or force(as the second amendment allows you to protect oneself and your family).

If a school system fails, its your fault. No amount of money will make it better.
If your body fails due to misuse or apathy, its your fault. Have your family take care of you, dont force others to pay in for your mistakes.
Forgot to save for retirement, or generally mismanage your cash/stash...sorry, that too is your fault.

Life can be good or bad, but the goverment sure as hell doesn't cant force it to be good by throwing money at a problem. If you want to make others pay a certain amount of thier wealth into a system of the community, then keep it to your own community. Not everyone wants big brother holding thier hand all through life because they are to weak, or dumb to have any forethought for thier life.

[edit on 25-10-2008 by LordBaskettIV]

Why is socialism so evil in United States?
The UK as a socialist party is managing fine and from what I know the English invented the modern day democracy sistem under social values a while ago.The very notion of modern democracy was imported from the United Kindom.Socialism is just a form of economics it has nothing to do with rights and voting.Comunism is an alteration of socialism just like capitalism is an alteration of democracy and will lead to imperialism if taken to the extreme.

A well balanced sistem would serve all.I can not imgine what would happen if the notion of the public school sistem would go away.The public school sistem ensures that children have a chance to study and learn.
While a private school can be better it would create a barier betwen middle class children and kids that are lower class.It would further divide people.What about those that do not have enough cash to send their kids to school, what would hapen to those children?

Anything that is a public service is socialism. Health care, public libraries, the mailing service, the fire department, wellfare, public parking, parks , roads and highways, the police, public ilumination of the streets, life guards and so on.Besides health care United States has them all, United States is more socialist than some know or admit it. This things are there because public service is a necesity and it would cost a fortune with out it.
Everything that is not public is owned, everything that is owned costs more and if any of you wish to use it you will need to sign a contract. Anyone that would rather sign this kind of contract either has more money or is insane...since you can have it for free.I can only imagine paying the police to solve a crime..."I'll pay because they will take care of my case better"


What is needed is a well designed sistem between capitalism and socialism.
Everytime capitalism or socialism is taken to the extreme it becomes imperialsm or comunism.Just look at China, it's capitalist in nature, it almost has nothing to do with comunism but it's yet a dictatorship and it's comunist by name only.The economy of United States crashed becaue of things taken to the extreme.Thats what happens when someone sells out your country it becomes with out value.Poor Americans...I do pitty you.Some of you have to hold 3 jobs in order to make a living and you want the public service out? hahahaha what will you do then ? hold 7 jobs?

Democracy was not invented in United States tho most of you act like it was.Democracy went side by side with social values from the start in it's purest form.
Sorry for my bad English...not my first languege.


[edit on 25-10-2008 by pepsi78]

reply to post by LordBaskettIV


Thanks for outlining the conservative manifesto. I too believe in self-responsibility and individual rights but neglecting the needs of the many for the needs of the few seems quite irresponsible and ultimately leads to the degeneration of society.

If people are too poor to go to school we will have a community of illiterates. If many can't afford healthcare then many will fall sick and perhaps die. If airlines and railroads are allowed to cut corners so they can compete and maximaze profit then there will inevitably be many accidents. Etc...etc.

Neglecting problems because of indifference and/or personal greed only exaggerates the problems we will have to face in the future. So yes I do believe in self-responsibility but since humans are imperfect creatures we do need oversight. Thats were I disagree with you. Not everything is "their problem" and your freedom ends where mine begins.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Why is socialism so evil in United States?
The UK as a socialist party is managing fine and from what I know the English invented the modern day democracy sistem under social values a while ago.The very notion of modern democracy was imported from the United Kindom.Socialism is just a form of economics it has nothing to do with rights and voting.Comunism is an alteration of socialism just like capitalism is an alteration of democracy and will lead to imperialism if taken to the extreme.

Exactly. I think people are mixing up terms and getting confused. The main difference between each system lies within economics.

Originally posted by pepsi78
What is needed is a well designed sistem between capitalism and socialism.
Everytime capitalism or socialism is taken to the extreme it becomes imperialsm or comunism.Just look at China, it's capitalist in nature, it almost has nothing to do with comunism but it's yet a dictatorship and it's comunist by name only.The economy of United States crashed becaue of things taken to the extreme.Thats what happens when someone sells out your country it becomes with out value.Poor Americans...I do pitty you.Some of you have to hold 3 jobs in order to make a living and you want the public service out? hahahaha what will you do then ? hold 7 jobs?

Yes a capitalistic dictatorship. That is what China has become but in all fairness I think it is a tough transition to make without solid leadership. At the same time it is not easy for the ex-communist party members to relinquish power. I think China wil eventually get free elections and hopefully sooner rather than later.

Originally posted by pepsi78
Democracy was not invented in United States tho most of you act like it was.Democracy went side by side with social values from the start in it's purest form.

Democracy was invented in Greece more than 2000 years ago.

Listen.

I don't think most educated capitalists think socialism is EVIL or BAD. I think most (such as me) think that socialism is not fair and it is inefficient. You may say..."Well Capitalism is unfair as well!" You would be right.

No economic system is 100% great because the human element creates an unhealthy environment for that philosophy. What Capitalism does is play on those negative human characteristics such as greed and allows good and progress to set forth to a certain degree. Socialism allows beaurecrats a lot of power yet government officials really have no incentive to do their best job. Capitalism allows corporations to have a lot of power and corporations have more incentive to do well so they can stay in business and continue to make products. That is total free market capitalism which we do not have in some areas such as when monopolies form.

Socialism isn't "bad", it just isn't efficient. When you want to grow an economy, you need capitalism. Asian countries realized that. So did Russia to a certain degree.

reply to post by RetinoidReceptor


I would agree with you on some points that favor capitalism from an economic growth point of view, but corporations also take short cuts that endanger the public if they are allowed. Also, corporations will outright lie to the public to make a buck. The Tobacco corporations are a textbook example of this.

Some things should be socialized for this very reason, and I still stand by my point of view that healthcare should be one of these things. Would any of you like to dismantle the CDC or the FDA?? They are prime examples of government infringing on the free market aspect of the healthcare industry. And I also believe that medical care should not be contingent on one's ability to pay.

I would agree with you on some points that favor capitalism from an economic growth point of view, but corporations also take short cuts that endanger the public if they are allowed. Also, corporations will outright lie to the public to make a buck. The Tobacco corporations are a textbook example of this.

You are absolutely right. One of the government's jobs is to regulate businesses in a capitalistic market.

Some things should be socialized for this very reason, and I still stand by my point of view that healthcare should be one of these things. Would any of you like to dismantle the CDC or the FDA?? They are prime examples of government infringing on the free market aspect of the healthcare industry. And I also believe that medical care should not be contingent on one's ability to pay.

No I do not think that the FDA or CDC should be private. Nor do I think National Defense should be private. But these are agencies that are basically regulatory agencies. I do believe Pharmaceutical companies are a prime example though where some healthcare needs to be private because I think government owned pharmaceutical companies would not be as effective because profit would not drive them to discovering new medications. Same with defense contractors. Defense contractors make new and improved technology so the governments of the world can buy them and they inadvertently have created many technologies that we take for granted at the moment.

You and I disagree about healthcare. I ask myself "does the government need to be involved in this?" If the answer is no, then I don't want them to be. Same with welfare and entitlement programs. I don't think the government should take care of the old. They should save up 10% of their pay checks every week and live within their means. They can save enough money if they did this. Especially if taxes were lower because social security would be non-existant.

Socialism isn't "bad", it just isn't efficient. When you want to grow an economy, you need capitalism. Asian countries realized that. So did Russia to a certain degree.

Yes you need capitalism to grow the economy but not to jump the horse.
You need capitalism to grow the economy and you need socialism where capitalism does not serve well.You need a cusom sociaty where there is an open market side by side with social values.
It is true that when everything is turned in to socialism it's bad, same for capitalism.

The healthcare sistem in Frace, Uk, Canada is far from perfect but it does the job and it's far better than what you got in United States.It simply works.Open market is good but not when it comes to moral values, it will never work like that. There is a minimum level where everyone should have access to basic needs that insures their survival.Just like the fire departament medical atention and treatment is a dependency, you depend on it with your life. There are other things that are not a threat to your life so they go on the open market.If you're smart or luky or have rich parents go ahead and make a fortune, no one will blame you for it.

Healthcare should never be private for some and should be for some, there needs to be 2 ways, one is for the people that can aford expencive healthcare ran by insurance companies and another would be ran by the state, the state should compete with the insurance company and I'll show you that the insurance company would lose in the end because it would not be efficent enough to beat the goverment in a fair game.

In an healthy capitalist economy the insurance company would always lose because it has to make profit, and since the state ran healthcare does not make money from healthcare then healthcare would be cheaper and on the same quality level.

Originally posted by pepsi78
there needs to be 2 ways, one is for the people that can aford expencive healthcare ran by insurance companies and another would be ran by the state,

That is fine as long as the people who have their own healthcare don't have to pay for the state run healthcare.

the state should compete with the insurance company and I'll show you that the insurance company would lose in the end because it would not be efficent enough to beat the goverment in a fair game.

How can you say this? You have no proof. Private healthcare does better than state run healthcare. Sure you can bring up infant mortality rates in the U.S. but that takes into account people who do not have health insurance as well. I guarantee you that if you take only the people who have private health insurance and only the people who have state ran health insurance you will see that the people with private health insurance are better off.


Is it fair or nice? No. But neither is being forced to pay for other people's health insurance or fix their problems when they do not work and I do.

[edit on 26-10-2008 by RetinoidReceptor]