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Palin Revisited - Calling All Previous Palin Apologists!

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posted on Oct, 23 2008 @ 11:38 PM
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How About a Little Humble Pie!



Alright everyone! I recall spending countless hours on ATS the day (and the days that followed) Sarah Palin was announced McCain's running mate. In many posts, I made the argument that this choice was political, meant to shake up and restart the heart of the McCain candidacy, and not based upon any real vetting, experience, or looking after the interests of the country. I also argued that the campaign would grow to regret this decision because, as we learn more about how truly inexperienced and unready she is to be on the national stage, her poll numbers would fall.

Well here we are... Months later... Palin's numbers are WAAY down, and from what I see today, is running as different campaign from McCain at this point.

I'm inviting all of those that faked enthusiasm (but in reality thought WTF!!!!) to come to this thread and say you were wrong. OR, if you can stomach it and not giggle as you do it, defend your original position.

In case you have one of those cases of Partisan Amnesia, let me remind you of some of the goodies that have transpired since her selection. Some of the following is from Foxnews.com:




  1. Policy on Pakistan - Days after John McCain criticized Barack Obama for announcing that he would strike terrorist targets in Pakistan, Palin told a customer in a Philadelphia restaurant on Sept. 27 the very same thing.
  2. The Bush Doctrine - Asked by ABC's Charlie Gibson to define the Bush Doctrine during a Sept. 11 interview, Palin appeared unsure of what he meant, and called it the president's "world view," his attempt to "rid this world of Islamic extremism." Gibson then lectured her "like an impatient teacher," according to the New York Times, identifying the doctrine as the belief that America has a right to anticipatory self-defense.
  3. Russia: Visible From Alaska - During a discussion of foreign affairs and America's relationship with former nemesis Russia, ABC's Charlie Gibson asked how Alaska's proximity to Russia gave her foreign policy insight.
  4. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac - During a campaign stop in Colorado Springs on Sept. 6, Gov. Palin said that mortgage giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac had "gotten too big and too expensive to the taxpayers," and that a McCain-Palin administration "will make them smaller and smarter and more effective for homeowners who need help." Yet when she made that comment, Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were not receiving any taxpayer money.
  5. Bridge to Nowhere - She said "'thanks but no thanks' on that Bridge to Nowhere," adding, "'If our state wanted a bridge,' I said, 'we'd build it ourselves.'" She was for this before it became a political liability.
  6. What Does the VP Do Anyway? - In an interview with CNBC in July -- before she was the Republican vice presidential nominee -- Palin criticized the No. 2 slot, implying it was fruitless and useless.
  7. 150K in Clothes - The GOP us currently under fire because of the purchase of over 100K worth of very expensive clothes for her and her family paid for using campaign funds. This does not bode well for Palin, given that she's the supposed 'Hockey Mom from Wasilla.'
  8. Troopergate - There's very little to say on this one. Palin was found to have abuse her power as Governor and broke ethics laws.



For some more light reading, I encourage you to check out and read this Factcheck article. It's the article called What about that Anne Kilkenny e-mail? Make sure you read the PDF email in the article.

There's no shame in admitting you were wrong or intellectually dishonest when you claimed Palin was a legitimate VP pick. I'm looking for some accountability from those that were willing to stick their neck out for this "pick of last resort."


[edit on 23-10-2008 by tommy_boy]

[edit on 23-10-2008 by tommy_boy]




posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:14 AM
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Palin was chosen to appeal to Hillary supporters. We all know it was simply for that pathetic reason. We all knew McCain was desperate.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:14 AM
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Don't forget her stance on illegal immigration and amnisty. Someone else started a thread regarding that. Even Michelle Malkin is freaking out. Saying in her blog "We're screwed 08".



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:51 AM
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If I could vote, (I am not a US citizen) I would have no problem supporting Palin in spite of the little list you provided.

Policy on Pakistan: Many running mates differ on their views - this is no more a problem than Biden;s many gaffs of the same nature.

The Bush Doctrine: She screwed up, no question, but so what?

Russia: Visible From Alaska: I guess Obama's lack of experience in international affairs is negated because he has snorted Columbian coc aine.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: Another rhetorical screw up - I still don't have a problem with it.

Bridge to Nowhere:So you are telling us that once someone decides to support something, if it turns out to be a bad deal then they are supposed to stick with the bad deal regardless of the outcome? Wow! Thank god you aren't running for office!!!

Etc. etc. etc...

This is fun!

Let's try a few Biden Gaffes - something he is well known for:

1. Forced Down by Terrorists?
"If you want to know where Al Qaeda lives, you want to know where (Usama) bin Laden is, come back to Afghanistan with me. Come back to the area where my helicopter was forced down with a three-star general and three senators at 10,500 feet in the middle of those mountains. I can tell you where they are,"
Sen. John Kerry, set Biden straight, telling the Associated Press that the helicopter was "forced down" by a snowstorm.

2. FDR Did What?
"When the stock market crashed, Franklin D. Roosevelt got on the television and didn't just talk about the, you know, the princes of greed," Biden told the CBS Evening News on Sept. 22.

But Herbert Hoover was president in October 1929 when the stock market crashed. FDR wasn't elected until 1932, and television made its debut a decade later, in 1939.

3. That's a Terrible Ad!
When asked by CBS on Sept. 22 how he felt about an Obama campaign ad that made fun of John McCain's inability to use a computer, Biden replied that he thought it was "terrible."

"I didn't know we did it," he said, adding that he wouldn't have approved the ad, but defended Obama's decision to approve it. "The answer is I don't think anything was intentional about that. They were trying to make another point," he said.

4. Lying About Working in Coal Mine
"Hope you won't hold it against me, but I am a hard coal miner -- anthracite coal, Scranton, Pennsylvania, that's where I was born and raised," Biden said to mine workers in Virginia on Sept. 20.

While his great-grandfather was a mining engineer, his father ran a Delaware car dealership and worked in the oil business.

5. "No Coal Plants in America!"
On Sept. 17 at a campaign stop in Maumee, Ohio, Biden told an environmentalist that the Democrats don't support clean coal. "We're not supporting clean coal," he said.

But they do. Obama said his administration will "enter into public private partnerships to develop five 'first-of-a-kind' commercial scale coal-fired plants with clean carbon capture and sequestration technology."

6. He Should Have Picked Hillary
At a campaign stop in Nashua, N.H., on Sept. 10, Biden said Obama may have been better off had he picked Hillary Clinton to be his running mate.

"Hillary Clinton is as qualified or more qualified than I am to be vice president of the United States of America. Let's get that straight," Biden said.

7. You in the Wheelchair, Get Up!
On the campaign train in Columbia, Mo., on Sept. 9, Biden asked State Sen. Chuck Graham to stand up for the crowd. "Stand up Chuck let me see you," Biden said to Graham, who is in a wheelchair. "Oh, God love you, what I am talking about. You're making everybody else stand up though, aren't you pal." Biden then asked everyone in the room to stand up for Graham.


Ok, Cowgirlstraitup7, here's your chance to apologize for supporting Biden... We're waiting.




posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 02:22 AM
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Another "gaffe" that you may have missed was Palin speaking about the powers of the vice president. She said:

"A vice president has a really great job because not only are they there to support the president's agenda, they're there like the team member, the teammate to the president," Palin continued. “But also, they're in charge of the United States Senate, so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom. And it's a great job and I look forward to having that job.”

Among the numerous other issues with her is her inability to understand the basic expectations of the job she is applying for. This woman, and Mccain are both threats to what this great nation was once meant to be. I personally believe her nomination is a stunt as many do, and that she does not have the understanding or experience to do the job. I know all the "conservatives" will jump at my viewpoint and say how Obama does not have experience either, but that doesn't mean much to me. A politician is a politician, and I personally don't care for any of them. (possibly exempt in this statement is Ron Paul.)



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 02:42 AM
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palin will be the first female president soon anyway. as long as we get a female president to break the glass ceiling all will be good. she can always give cheney a consulting contract to help her out. don't worry. she will be better than that one.



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by nanobyte

Bridge to Nowhere:So you are telling us that once someone decides to support something, if it turns out to be a bad deal then they are supposed to stick with the bad deal regardless of the outcome? Wow! Thank god you aren't running for office!!!


Not quite how it went down, my friend...

She supported it in spite of the fact that this was a bad idea. She only "unsupported" it after she realized it would cause her personal harm in her career. You seem to be confusing this political tactic for instances where someone is truly swayed into taking on an opposite position and then has the moral courage to change their mind.

The items I cited in the body of the OP are only small examples of a larger pattern, Nano. You obviously didn't get that. And you apparently didn't read the article from Factcheck from the OP.

We know who Palin is now. The picture is getting clearer now. She is a shrewd, opportunistic "politician" that will step on whoever she needs to step on to advance her professional ambitions. That includes her own constituents. The troopergate incident has only further proven the point, as she stared blindly at a report that clearly stated she broke the law, and then has repeated over and over that the report clears her of any wrong-doing.

And you'd vote for that if you could?

At least when most politicians lie to you, they stroke you a little. Palin just treats the people like a bunch of idiots. Repetition does not equal truth.

Now, ambitions in and of themselves aren't bad. But when they cloud your common decency and judgment, close your mind to the ideas of others, force you to do unethical things like fire police chiefs because they wouldn't fire someone you disliked, or claim your opponent "pals around with terrorists," then these types of ambitions are troublesome. Nano, we all now know that she will do or say anything to get ahead. It's chronicled, and its how she's gotten ahead, all the way back to her high school days. These tactics aren't reform. They're status quo!

And you'd vote for that if you could?

To further prove this point, check out the recent stories coming out in the news and notice that there is a progressive and gradual break on her part away from MCCAIN! Yes, McCain! One example: McCain all but conceded Michigan. Palin broke with him on that. Another example: Palin's been all but barred from having press conferences. She defiantly had one recently, and her communications handler tried her best to stop it, but Palin kept on goin! Another example: Palin recently broke publicly with McCain on gay marriage. And on and on and on. This person has the audacity to begin breaking from HER OWN running mate. DURING THE CAMPAIGN! And why? It's pretty obvious. She's setting herself up for a 2012 run at the presidency. Now that's ambition!!

And you'd vote for that if you could?

Regarding Joe Biden... The post was about Palin, and all of the fake enthusiasm that McCain supporters tried to get us to believe when she was nominated. It wasn't a partisan commentary on "Biden's better than Palin," but if you'd like for me to swiftly school you on your main (and unrelated) argument, please open a thread and I'll be glad to joust with you on why Biden happens to be vastly and undoubtedly superior to Palin.

I find it interesting that you completely avoided the main thesis of my post and instead presented equivalencies to the less important 'gaffes' listed in the OP. That's what people do when they can counter the argument.

So, in keeping with the original topic, I'm interested in you telling me how Palin was a serious and thoughtful choice for McCain, and not "a choice of last resort?" Explain to me how choosing Palin put "America First" and didn't put John McCain's campaign first, especially when presented with a sea of experienced classical Conservatives that would be perfect for the spot?



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 01:30 PM
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reply to post by nanobyte
 


Thanks for not being here to vote. Palin is dangerously ill informed.



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 01:37 PM
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reply to post by tommy_boy
 


For me she should have never been considered. It was pure politics and not a very good polital move at that.

McCain should have dumped her as soon as the Muthee video hit youtube.
www.youtube.com...



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by nanobyte
If I could vote, (I am not a US citizen) I would have no problem supporting Palin in spite of the little list you provided.

Policy on Pakistan: Many running mates differ on their views - this is no more a problem than Biden;s many gaffs of the same nature.

The Bush Doctrine: She screwed up, no question, but so what?

Russia: Visible From Alaska: I guess Obama's lack of experience in international affairs is negated because he has snorted Columbian coc aine.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac: Another rhetorical screw up - I still don't have a problem with it.

Bridge to Nowhere:So you are telling us that once someone decides to support something, if it turns out to be a bad deal then they are supposed to stick with the bad deal regardless of the outcome? Wow! Thank god you aren't running for office!!!



That is not enough gaffes in a row to show you she has NO IDEA WHAT SHE IS DOING WHERE SHE IS.

Fine, take the bridge stance. Your justification is great...unless she kept the money for the bridge anyway. Is she not trying to portray it as though she refused to waste taxpayer's money on the bridge and that is what is admirable? Well, the taxpayer's STILL PAID FOR THE BRIDGE because SHE KEPT THE MONIES FOR IT.

That list was the tip of the ice berg. How about the warm fuzzy things her friends in the Alaskan seperatist group say about America. They speak of America the same way we are supposed to believe the middle-eastern terrorist do. She not only likes these people, she has tried to give some of them government jobs. Anyone that is still sticking up for her is truly ignoring a mountain of facts.



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by Tiamanicus
How about the warm fuzzy things her friends in the Alaskan seperatist group say about America. They speak of America the same way we are supposed to believe the middle-eastern terrorist do. She not only likes these people, she has tried to give some of them government jobs. Anyone that is still sticking up for her is truly ignoring a mountain of facts.


Oh I get it now!
Palin had warm fuzzy things to say about an Alaskan seperatist movement and she is evil.
Obama gets his political career jumpstarted in Terrorist Ayers home and he's a good guy.
You American liberals are a hypocritical group!



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by nanobyte
Oh I get it now!
Palin had warm fuzzy things to say about an Alaskan seperatist movement and she is evil.
Obama gets his political career jumpstarted in Terrorist Ayers home and he's a good guy.
You American liberals are a hypocritical group!


Nano, I can only believe that your primary goal is to insight reactions, because your arguments are not only partisan, they're incredibly absurd, shallow in detail, and mis-informed.

Obama's political career did not begin in Ayer's living room, despite the Talking Points Memo you read that from. And as I've posted previously on other threads, Obama has addressed his Ayers association to the satisfaction of most. The story's dead to everyone but McCain (and you apparently). It was a nice try, and kudos to Obama for not bringing up endlessly McCain's ridiculous associations (Keating, to mention one) and for focusing on the issues. Ya know, in my opinion, McCain has alot more to lose in the 'associations' blame game than Obama...

You also skipped past that critical association the Palin's had with the Alaska secessionist group. Why? You mentioned it, but ran past it. Doesn't that disturb you? You didn't address whether you were okay with the republican VP candidate being associated with a group whose founder wants nothing to do with the US?

Obama just happened to serve on a board with Ayers. The Palins were members of an anti-american secessionist group. You really don't see the difference?

Talk about hypocracy.



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 11:03 PM
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Originally posted by tommy_boy

Not quite how it went down, my friend...

You are not my friend. In my culture we do not call people we don't know our friends - it is disingenuous.


The items I cited in the body of the OP are only small examples of a larger pattern, Nano. You obviously didn't get that.

Oh, I get it all right.
It's called character assasination, and that's all. I just gave you the same crap about your favorite, which you are unable or unwilling to confront. Typical.


We know who Palin is now. The picture is getting clearer now. She is a shrewd, opportunistic "politician"
And you'd vote for that if you could?

Damn right, it's better than the alternative. I've seen what socialism does in my part of the world and it is not where America needs to go... No longer will it be that "shining 'city' on a hill"...



To further prove this point, check out the recent stories coming out in the news and notice that there is a progressive and gradual break on her part away from MCCAIN! Yes, McCain!

So what - I already gave you examples of Biden breaking with Obama. Big deal. They are individuals - not some robotic collective consciousness. It gives flavor to the ticket - both sides.


And you'd vote for that if you could?

Yes, I would. Trying to get my citizenship - and then I will be voting.


Regarding Joe Biden... The post was about Palin, and all of the fake enthusiasm that McCain supporters tried to get us to believe when she was nominated.

When McCain chose her I thought he had lost his mind, Leiberman would have been a good choice. But after hearing her and about her I am okay with her.


I find it interesting that you completely avoided the main thesis of my post and instead presented equivalencies to the less important 'gaffes' listed in the OP. That's what people do when they can counter the argument.
So, in keeping with the original topic, I'm interested in you telling me how Palin was a serious and thoughtful choice for McCain, and not "a choice of last resort?"


but that was not the premise of your original post.
Your Words: "I'm inviting all of those that faked enthusiasm (but in reality thought WTF!!!!) to come to this thread and say you were wrong. OR, if you can stomach it and not giggle as you do it, defend your original position."

In answer to your original question, as I said above, I thought McCain was crazy to pick her but after I heard her at the convention and subsequent speeches I am all the more enamoured by her... It was a good move for McCain in my opinion - and that is what we are dealing with here are opinions, yes?

Except perhaps my opinion is less important since I am for Palin. At least that what it seems like here.



[edit on 10/25/2008 by nanobyte]



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 11:28 PM
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Originally posted by tommy_boy
Nano, I can only believe that your primary goal is to insight reactions, because your arguments are not only partisan, they're incredibly absurd, shallow in detail, and mis-informed.

Your opinion mixed with your own form of partisanship and personal attack.
Your statement means nothing. Why waste the time typing it?


Obama's political career did not begin in Ayer's living room, despite the Talking Points Memo you read that from. And as I've posted previously on other threads, Obama has addressed his Ayers association to the satisfaction of most.

If it was true that Obama had addressed the Ayers affiliation to the satisfaction of most, then "most" must mean just Obama supporters.


Talk about hypocracy.

English is my second language - but it's "hypocrisy".



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 11:32 PM
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Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by tommy_boy
 


For me she should have never been considered. It was pure politics and not a very good polital move at that.

McCain should have dumped her as soon as the Muthee video hit youtube.
www.youtube.com...


The video shows her in a church being prayed for.
That is reason to not consider someone for a Vice Presidential position in the US? I guess I need to go to Russia - at least there they have religious freedom!



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by nanobyte

Oh, I get it all right.
It's called character assasination, and that's all. I just gave you the same crap about your favorite, which you are unable or unwilling to confront. Typical.

There's that bias again. I'm not a liberal. Your points on Biden were valid as gaffes, but again, the OP's primary point was not the gaffes. If you're looking for me to say that Biden also says stupid things, OK. I'll bite. Joe Biden would be my ideal choice as the Dem VP, but he's vastly more experienced as a politician than Palin. It's still a deviation from the original point.



Damn right, it's better than the alternative. I've seen what socialism does in my part of the world and it is not where America needs to go... No longer will it be that "shining 'city' on a hill"...

If you look at what's happened with our economy and financial system, you'd see we're kinda already moving in a socialist direction. Heck, we are already psuedo socialist. We have all sorts of entitlement programs; most of which in my opinion are GREAT ideas but poorly managed. What we aren't are communists. I'm sure you know the difference.



So what - I already gave you examples of Biden breaking with Obama. Big deal. They are individuals - not some robotic collective consciousness. It gives flavor to the ticket - both sides.

Man, you really can't reason a point without arguing "THE OTHER GUY DOES IT TOO!" Save that argument for a Liberal! How about a reasoned argument void of any partisan talking points? All your really saying is "Well, the other guys is just as bad, or is worse, so its OK." It's NOT ok.



Yes, I would. Trying to get my citizenship - and then I will be voting.

Congrats on the citizenship! I hope you get it!



When McCain chose her I thought he had lost his mind, Leiberman would have been a good choice. But after hearing her and about her I am okay with her.

You're in the minority. Most are breaking with her, and for good reason. The only ones hanging on tight are the righty right neocons. Is it safe to assume, then, that you share strict conservative values? If so, that then says alot about why your arguments match Sean Hannity's
Nothing at all wrong with that, BTW. I respect all opinions. It just helps me understand where the slant comes from.



but that was not the premise of your original post.
Your Words: "I'm inviting all of those that faked enthusiasm (but in reality thought WTF!!!!) to come to this thread and say you were wrong. OR, if you can stomach it and not giggle as you do it, defend your original position."

In answer to your original question, as I said above, I thought McCain was crazy to pick her but after I heard her at the convention and subsequent speeches I am all the more enamoured by her... It was a good move for McCain in my opinion - and that is what we are dealing with here are opinions, yes?

Except perhaps my opinion is less important since I am for Palin. At least that what it seems like here.


You did address the main topic... But in your last post, not your first.
It took a while to get you there


Regarding your opinion, I can't speak for others, but I value everyone's opinion. I'm even swayable if a position is reasoned and supported well, but I do not let people off the hook. We all need to call BS when we see it so that people begin to think and reason without a blind left or right slant. And my premise behind this thread was to express the opinion that the majority of people that supported the Palin selection from day-one did so with NO information about her, and did so out of party loyalty. Given the media vetting that has occurred, her aggregated performances, and her poll numbers, it's pretty clear now at the Palin ship has left the harbor and is now sinking.



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 11:41 PM
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Originally posted by nanobyte
English is my second language - but it's "hypocrisy".

C'mon, don't be silly. This is a good debate overall. Attack the substance, not the typos.



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 11:42 PM
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palin is already setting herself up for 2012, inner turmoil in the republican top circles has her upset and she is subtley trying to distance herself.



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by nanobyte
If it was true that Obama had addressed the Ayers affiliation to the satisfaction of most, then "most" must mean just Obama supporters.

Well.... In most major polls, the Ayers issue is non-existent. The repubs have been slamming Obama with it for weeks now, and his lead has increased actually. Colin Powell endorsed Obama knowing full well about this situation. The only news outlet giving it any play is the Fox News Network, and despite their dominance in cable news, the story's been DOA. Look, we all know the damage the far right can cause with a story (ala the Swift-boating of John Kerry). The American people just don't buy this one.

So, it's not the small cross-section that you imply. The story is a non-issue in this campaign, period.

[edit on 26-10-2008 by tommy_boy]



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