Can we really have a normal discussion around here?

The title pretty much says it all, but, I'm getting so sick of the "facts" getting muddled over the years. I just want some serious discussion with facts, precedence, and really just evidence to back things up. This applies to both sides of the spectrum. So, I mean no offense to any one.




Mod edit: Fixed title by request from author.

[edit on 10/23/2008 by Hal9000]

Sure Cowboy... wadda ya wanna chat about?

reply to post by ThroatYogurt


This thread was not really about you TY. I'll explain by, even though we disagree sometimes, we still have a good friendship that transcends the whole "9/11 conspiracy" issue. Maybe it's just me, but, I'm getting sick of both sides being so biased.

I don't know. Have a good night all.

Basically, this thread is a plea for those who are truelly lookin for truth, to come together and find that truth. No more name calling, no more being "pricks", just no more anything. Life is too short for this kind of bickering IMO.

I guess I've said my peace, now back to the blah, blah, blah.

I hear ya. I've interjected sentimets similar to yours in many threads relating to 9/11. We dont' have discussions anymore, we have attacks and counter-attacks. We have hyperbole supporting truths linking opinions and it all gets so muddy that any but the most die-hard "truther" or "believer" eventually bows out, tiring of the interplay of BS. I hate the labels. It doesn't help a THING.

Websites become references. I could do the same, except I'm a pretty honest person.

I agree 100%. But, like all humans, I have sucumed to the dark side of just fighting with people myself. So, what I'm saying is, "can we just all be friends"? Is that so hard? What is up with us lately?

As you notice, I did say "us", meaning myself also.

Define normal and we can discuss

Originally posted by all2human
Define normal and we can discuss

Do you really want me to go there? LOL

Thanks for the chuckle. I think we all need it sometimes.

The main reason why there is so much discord and childishness in the 911 forum can be attributed to what some call Agent Provacteurs that troll forums.

What is an agent provocateur?

According to Wikipedia:

“An agent provocateur (plural: agents provocateurs, French for "inciting agent") is a person who secretly disrupts a group's activities from within the group. Agents provocateurs typically represent the interests of another group, or are agents directly assigned to provoke unrest, violence, debate, or argument by or within a group while acting as a member of the group.”[6]

Provocateurs “try to disrupt a group by creating discord between group members”[7] in a deliberate attempt to get the targeted group to fight between themselves, rather than their intended opponent. This is divide and conquer.

What causes divisiveness within the 9/11 truth movement? We can summarize it in one word: Ad-hominem. This is how it works:

1. Person A makes claim X.
2. Person B makes an attack on person A.
3. Therefore A's claim is false.[8]

The “attack” can come in the form of insult, accusation, or irrelevant commentary. In fact, one does not need to hurl insults to commit ad-hominem. Any commentary that distracts attention away from an argument to an individual belongs to this fallacy.


In this next experpt you will recognize some of the methods employed on conspiracy forums.

Agent Provocateurs emphasize:

1. Attacking individuals for what they believe/advocate (ad-hominem)

2. Divisiveness to the exclusion of constructive debate; avoidance of civility and polite discussion

3. The use of ridicule, divisive labels, sarcasm, accusations, and ad-hominem to bait fights rather than constructive dialog. As well, personal commentary, past battles, group associations, etc. are all highlighted for the purpose of divisive battles

4. Straw-man (often with divisive labels): distorting the position of your opponent in order to make them defensive and bait an argument

5. A refusal to fairly debate or acknowledge contrary opinions/evidence and instead attack an individual for their views

In short, an Agent Provocateur is an expert in ad-hominem:

1. Attacking an individual rather than critiquing their position

2. Attacking an individual while critiquing/attacking/distorting their position

Please Read the rest @ this informative webpage
www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com...

A good debate is impossible with the above tactics being used.

911 didn't end when the towers fell. It's happening right in front of you, right now!



[edit on 23-10-2008 by IvanZana]

I hear ya!

Maybe this topic should be moved to skunk works! LOL! Sort of kidding ok!

Under times of duress it is very hard to keep cool heads. Add gigantic mysteries to that duress you got perfect chaos for battles.

I guess until all the dark times have passed, we might be facing more of this sort of thing, even offline. It's nice to see someone raising the white flag with the red cross on it though! Cool heads prevail.

well boys, i've resigned myself to the need for help from a higher power, don't know about you guys but it seems like we need it arguing amongst ourselves like this, have you guys read "behold a pale horse"?

Originally posted by PinealGlandThoth
have you guys read "behold a pale horse"?

Reminds me of the old Johnny Cash song. It was played in one of the opening scenes in the Dawn of the Dead movie. (the remake)

Originally posted by Griff
The title pretty much says it all, but, I'm getting so sick of the "facts" getting muddled over the years. I just want some serious discussion with facts, precedence, and really just evidence to back things up. This applies to both sides of the spectrum. So, I mean no offense to any one.

From what I see here at ATS, the answer is, "no". But this is true everywhere where people have different points of view, in MHO.


Mod edit: Fixed title by request from author.

[edit on 10/23/2008 by Hal9000]

You could but it would have to be a referee'd discussion. The liars and propagandists would have to be weeded out.

I think you are in search of a different forum for your ideas. Are you a member of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth? I don't know what their setup is but maybe they have a forum for sharing ideas.

I have a feeling that a lot of the people that you find most disagreeable are on this forum, not because they want to illuminate the topic of 9/11, but because they want to achieve a political purpose or are emotionally immature types who can't bother with commonsense or logic. That comes with the turf.

You have given a lot to the forum and I hope you will continue to do so. Sometimes we have to give even though we feel we are getting nothing back. There is an old Chinese saying, "The job of the sage is to do his duty."

Well thought through and said... i think you guys have accurately labeled the sources of derailment here. Once i recognized that this was the case, i started spending more of my time and energy in the research forum, focusing on NEW ~9/11 Evidence Research Project~ as of late.

Note: in order to post in the Research Forum you need to get approved by ADVISOR.

Yes, I'm a member of A&E, but the last time I checked, their forum was down. It's been a long time since I've been to their site to check though. Also, there really wasn't much more discussion there than goes on here.

BTW, thanks for the compliment. I'll be around for awhile still, it's not that easy to get rid of me.

reply to post by The All Seeing I


I haven't even been to the research forum. Maybe that's what I'm looking for. Thanks for reminding me about this feature of ATS.