Native Americans, Celts and Ancient Transatlantic Travel

Originally posted by pieman
reply to post by Illusionsaregrander

 

celtic is a cultural identity rather than a genetic identity, i think, it is a nice name to describe non-romanised people in these islands. there would have been a fair number of different peoples on the islands at the time which we would call celtic now, but they would refer to themselves otherwise.

Thats exactly the point. Cultural and linguistic studies are interesting, but they really cant tell us who moved where and did what with certainty. Although the Isles are a place where the language is still spoken, it appears it was a rather late addition to the "Celtic culture" and not its origin. (the exact origin is in dispute, but there is little dispute about it NOT being the Isles.) It is a nice name, and I also am attached to it, but names dont always reflect the truth of a thing.

Which is why it would be interesting to see a genetic study done of the Algonquins to see if there is any evidence that would link them to any group not from the Americas. It seemed to me that this thread was a real attempt to discern if there were a possible influx of people from one side of the Atlantic to another. Either from the Americas to Europe and the Isles or vice versa.

Although the article linked discusses genetic similarity, it does so in the grossest and most vague terms. And, it only mentions Native Americas breifly where it focuses more on the Basque/Welsh/Irish connection. It would be interesting to see exactly what markers they are looking at, rather than just

www.users.on.net...

He said; "The Y chromosome common among Welsh males was an ancient one. Most native Americans have the same one. Surprisingly perhaps, the genetics show that the Welsh are not related to the Cornish, despite the similarity of their languages.

edit to add;

www.newscientist.com...

Native Americans share same Ancestors | 1st March 2007
New research supports the theory that Native Americans are descended from a common founding population that lived on the eastern edge of Siberia.
A team led by the University of California's Kari Schroeder took DNA samples from around 1,500 people around the world, including people from 2 populations in eastern Siberia, 53 in other parts of Asia and 18 Native American populations.

What I am not able to find is any source that doesnt link back to the original source here that says the Basques are supposed to be descended from these same Siberians. Not saying it doesnt exist. It may well. I just cant find any other source saying that that doesnt trace directly back to the same fellow.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

Originally posted by kettlebellysmith
I'm 58, and when I was 10, and in the 5th grade I learned that Leif Erickson sailed west to Canada and established a colony known as "Vinland," long before Columbus was born. There is also a story of an Irish monk sailing west to the North American continent. I'm sorry I can't document where or when I heard this, but I do recall that the monk's name was "Brendan," or "Brandon." If I recall this correctly, the monk actually returned to Ireland, but I could be wrong on this.
The theory you have is interesting. Why must we assume that all Native Americans migrated the land bridge across the Bering straits?
After all, Roman coins have been found in South America, and ancient Chinese artifacts have been found on the West coast of America. I think we limit our ancestors way too much.


[edit on 23-10-2008 by kettlebellysmith]

The most valid of the suggested locations of Ericson's Vinland is the site at L'anse Aux Meadows here in Newfoundland. It's the only viking settlement found in North America outside of Greenland thats officially recognized. It's actually a UNESCO World Heritage Site. It's a pretty cool place.

If Celtic was such an easily transferable and usable language, wouldn't it make more sense for for English to be full of Celtic words, y'know, seeing that Britain was a Celtic country at different times, for many hundreds of years in the past? Yet you find not so much as a trace of Celtic in English (except, possibly some suggestion of it in sentence structure).

For this reason, I cannot see it being taken on in America after such a brief encounter.

Other cultures have taken over countries in the past, assimilating over hundreds of years before leaving without leaving so much as a trace of culture behind.

It's a nice thought but I think you would need to find evidence elsewhere. native Placenames for example.

reply to post by JohnnyCanuck


JohnnyCanuck,
I read the Farfarers and found it interesting if a bit disjointed and drawn out. Fell's book covers much earlier times and brings to light many inconsistencies in the record regardless of the level of his science. How does one explain the many dolmens, root cellars, and the observatory at Mystery Hill?

I bookmarked the site you linked to and will read the opinions of the author.

If this is already posted, sorry. These sites support the theory that there is an early European influence in America... very early.

www.csmonitor.com...

Here they compare their speartips.

lithiccastinglab.com...

Here they look at DNA.

archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com...

Originally posted by Skyfloating
reply to post by lostinspace

 

Did YOU discover this? If so, its going to feature in alternative-history/archaeology literature sooner or later.


Thats in-your-face evidence. Keep it coming.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by Skyfloating]

I found this on my own. I knew nothing of the Basque mythology before this thread. I was aware of the strange coincidence between the Biscione and Monument 5 at Chalcatzingo. I decided to look over Basques ancient mythology to see if anything popped out at me. I was truly amazed.

When I saw Mari's name in the pre-christian mythology section, on the wikipedia article, I immediately recalled the word Maure. This is the term the Phoenicians gave the Moors. The Tindari legend of the Black Madona is thought to have inspired the Gorgon mythology of the Greeks. In one of these links you can see Ladon the dragon devouring a man just like the image at Chalcatzingo. I think the real warrior woman we see as Athena was really a worshipper of Mari. That's why Athena wears Mari on her shield or chest. She is a protection for her.

Lastly, I read an old Atlantis novel that mentioned a Sorceress named Kirtyah. She lived in a cave at the base of a mountain and her companion was a yellow asp of great size. His name was Lucksor. The high priest Thalok (Tlaloc), of Atlan, would make an audience with her occasionally in order to get answers about recent omens.

The author of that book must have read about the Basque mythology.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by lostinspace]

It took me a while to re-locate this, but it is a fantastic graphic. This gentleman, Stephen Oppenheimer, is doing genetic tracking to trace the spread of humankind around the planet.

The Journey of Mankind

And some of his sleuthing on the trail of the spread of the Celts and their language and how that relates to the people of the "British" Isles.

www.prospect-magazine.co.uk...

Given the distribution of Celtic languages in southwest Europe, it is most likely that they were spread by a wave of agriculturalists who dispersed 7,000 years ago from Anatolia, travelling along the north coast of the Mediterranean to Italy, France, Spain and then up the Atlantic coast to the British Isles. There is a dated archaeological trail for this. My genetic analysis shows exact counterparts for this trail both in the male Y chromosome and the maternally transmitted mitochondrial DNA right up to Cornwall, Wales, Ireland and the English south coast.

Further evidence for the Mediterranean origins of Celtic invaders is preserved in medieval Gaelic literature. According to the orthodox academic view of "iron-age Celtic invasions" from central Europe, Celtic cultural history should start in the British Isles no earlier than 300 BC. Yet Irish legend tells us that all six of the cycles of invasion came from the Mediterranean via Spain, during the late Neolithic to bronze age, and were completed 3,700 years ago.

So, based on the overall genetic perspective of the British, it seems that Celts, Belgians, Angles, Jutes, Saxons, Vikings and Normans were all immigrant minorities compared with the Basque pioneers, who first ventured into the empty, chilly lands so recently vacated by the great ice sheets.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

reply to post by BlackGuardXIII



Great article on the Clovis spear heads found in North Eastern United States. The mysterious Basque Peoples were probably all over the Atlantic region for thousands of years. Eventually the Basque ran into the Asiatic people in the Americas and then we had a blending of cultures. The ornate headgear the Aztec and Mayans wear for ritual ceremonies reminds me of the Chinese culture. The ancient Chinese also wear interesting headgear, but not that grandiose.

It stands to reason that anyone speaking Gaelic related languages in Europe were originally from America. The native name of Brittany in France is Armorica, another big hint as to their origins.

This is very interesting, but I'm a bit confused by the bit of text that the OP posted from an external site. Is the article trying to say that he native name of Brittany in France is Armorica because it's inhabitants came from America? If so, that doesn't make such sense to me. I always thought the America was named after Vespucci because he's credited as the first explorer to realize that America was an actual undiscovered continent and not the eastern part of Asia.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Let's be clear here: The "Celts" of Ireland migrated there from Galatia, they are of "Spanish area" descent. Linked linguistically and artistically with other Celtic/European tribes across Europe. They were NOT the "aboriginal" people of Ireland (or Great Britain as a whole). Celts did not erect Stonehenge, they were there thousands of years prior to "Celts."

Have you ever read of the "Cocaine Mummies" of Egypt? If we are talking about ancient travels to The Americas, then we have proof that somehow, some way, tobacco and coc aine made it's way from The Americas to Egypt, in the time of the pharaohs. Forensically proven.

Also, some of the North American place names, river names and tribe names reflect of Egyptian influence: The ISSI in Mississippi could very well stand for Isis priests naming it (J being a symbol of the beard of the pharaoh, making J-Isis a priest of Isis, or as some called him: Jesus. Why do you think the myths have "Jesus" traveling BACK to Egypt, the place his people, The Jews, supposedly escaped from????) There are many many many North American place names incorporating Egyptian gods and goddesses names and titles...

Which would not rule out contact MUCH LATER between Ireland's "Celts" and North American aboriginal tribes. In fact, looking at a map, and knowing how Inuits and other northern most aboriginal tribes across the Arctic region of Europe and Asia can travel the top of the world with relative ease, I would be AMAZED if they DID NOT have trade contacts in both Europe and N.A.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Try reading this first:

www.resurrectisis.com...

Focus on the relationship of Egyptian words and "Native American" place names, as well as the origin and use of the letters you use everyday: Know why "U" always follows "Q"?? It is interesting, at least to me, because I see ancient variants of the myth throughout Asia, in various forms.

Here is a hint: In the book of myth known as the "New Testament", there is a very interesting passage where "Jesus'" followers ask him who they will follow when he is gone.

He replies: "Look for the man carrying a bucket of water (or pail of water), and follow him into his House.

Hint: The man is Aquarius.....

reply to post by netron


You´re bringing up some interesting points that I am copy/pasting onto my harddrive.

Thanks

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
Very interesting thread. I enjoy this sort of thing.

However, it is commonly thought that Gaelic is not the native language of the people who call themselves the "Celts" today, but rather it must have been adopted.

Would anybody know what other languages have similarities to Gaelic?

reply to post by alupang


Yes, Im aware of some of the other evidence for transatlantic contact. Its not much evidence, but its there...such as the coc aine mummies.

...and it goes even further back to ancient greece who indeed called the earth a globe with other countries across the sea.

Odd how this was later forgotten by most.

Originally posted by triplesod
If Celtic was such an easily transferable and usable language, wouldn't it make more sense for for English to be full of Celtic words, y'know, seeing that Britain was a Celtic country at different times, for many hundreds of years in the past? Yet you find not so much as a trace of Celtic in English (except, possibly some suggestion of it in sentence structure).

which is a gaelicised english word and which is an englishised gaelic word? what is english for that matter. a native language with elements of latin, greek, german, french, indian and numerous other minor native languages from the colonies, the idea that there are no gaelic words in english is laughable.

Originally posted by asmeone2
Skyfloating:

You come up with some interesting threads! I love this one about language.

Let me ask you this. Do you know how similar are the NA/Celtic language in terms of subject/object/verb arrangement?

In the method of verb conjugation?

In the pronoun and verb cases (that is, past, present, future, or formal/informal/vulgar)

Do the languages display a similar system of giving object gender?

(Since you did the research I'll assume you're educated enough that you don't need example, but let me know if you do.)

Coincidences of word meaning can happen, but if your research indicates a high correlation of similar words, and a similar structure of the language, then you're really on to something.

I look forward to hearing more of this!

[edit on 23-10-2008 by asmeone2]

These are some valid and good questions...which I do not (yet) have the answers to. Currently Im simply brushing the surface of various transatlantic connections. What would be required here is to go more deeply into this one connection.

When posting on ATS I am always hoping for more expert people to add their expertise.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
However, it is commonly thought that Gaelic is not the native language of the people who call themselves the "Celts" today, but rather it must have been adopted.

Would anybody know what other languages have similarities to Gaelic?

i'm not a linguist but there are a couple of things to mention on this, there is no way on earth that the celtic language was gaelic, in fact the idea of "celtic" in the first place is erroneous.

this has to be cleared up if this thread is to progress, in the late 19th century there was a big nationalist movement in europe, the british/irish element of it dubbed the peoples of the british isles, as they were at the time, as being celtic. it's a load of crap.

the irish language (gaeilge) and the scots language (gaelic) are similar, there seems to have been a good deal of cultural cross contamination, but they were different peoples. there is also a cornish language and a welsh language which are both different from the rest. these are all called gaelic as an umbrella and the cultures are called celtic but this is very misleading IMO.

there's no use in discussing similarities between gaelic as an umbrella and any native american language, IMHO, it'll just end in confusion and offshoots.

i can only discuss gaeilge and the irish "celts" because what little i know about that, i know nothing much at all about the other three. as far as that goes, i can pick up phonetic similarities in arabic to gaeilge as well as some similarities in religious words, but the irish were widely traveled as mercenaries, so i imagine there are influences from all over the mediterranean.




Edit: this site might be a useful resource; omniglot


[edit on 25/10/08 by pieman]

Originally posted by pieman

this has to be cleared up if this thread is to progress, in the late 19th century there was a big nationalist movement in europe, the british/irish element of it dubbed the peoples of the british isles, as they were at the time, as being celtic. it's a load of crap.

One of the best parts of 'Celtic revivalism' is the tug of war over 'ownership' of the druids. Ronald Hutton covers this really well in his book on the druids.

Regarding the notion of 'Celtic' and 'Celtic culture', I think it's a loaded term with a lot of assumptions, bias and so many generalisations that it's pretty meaningless. I think it makes more sense and is less open to romanticism if it's addressed as what it actually is, Iron Age cultures.

[edit on 25-10-2008 by Merriman Weir]

Originally posted by Skyfloating


Would anybody know what other languages have similarities to Gaelic?

I have seen some people remark on similarities to Sanskrit.

books.google.com... X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result

Although I am having a hard time locating free online sources that are scholarly rather than "spiritual" or "new age" or just personal studies.

(In order to provide sources that are credible)