Why We Can't Imagine Death

Originally posted by Bombeni
Of course I already know it is a moot point for most of you; but if life after death does not exist then Jesus could not have been raised from the dead. Many of you don't believe that happened though. However he did resurrect and walked among the people for weeks before finally ascending to Heaven. IMO, whether you are a Christian or not, arguing whether Jesus DID come out of that tomb and live among the people for a time, after being crucified, is non-negotiable. Now many of you would reply that He wasn't actually dead if He came out of the tomb; save it, it's all been said before.

Actually you're quite right. Jesus didn't actually DIE, he was more likely in a trance-like state, slowed heartbeat, shallow breathing etc...

After all, Jesus was a type of yogi master and no doubt kept himself in this state to create the illusion of death, to later heal himself and show people that it is possible to transcend death.

Nothing spooky, god-like or supernatural, he had just learned a LOT when Jesus visited India in the 'missing years' in the bible.

Jesus wasn't the son of God, he was just a humble man with good intent.

Originally posted by Bombeni
However he did resurrect and walked among the people for weeks before finally ascending to Heaven. IMO, whether you are a Christian or not, arguing whether Jesus DID come out of that tomb and live among the people for a time, after being crucified, is non-negotiable.

a)prove he came back to life - a book doesnt count none of them could get the story straight

b)yes its very negotiable especially if you arnt a christian despite what you said

and you still havnt said anything to prove your last point about it cant all be shorts in the brain

....gets the feeling this about to get railroaded far far off topic trying to prove that god after life and every really really does exist

Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by Bombeni
Of course I already know it is a moot point for most of you; but if life after death does not exist then Jesus could not have been raised from the dead. Many of you don't believe that happened though. However he did resurrect and walked among the people for weeks before finally ascending to Heaven. IMO, whether you are a Christian or not, arguing whether Jesus DID come out of that tomb and live among the people for a time, after being crucified, is non-negotiable. Now many of you would reply that He wasn't actually dead if He came out of the tomb; save it, it's all been said before.

Actually you're quite right. Jesus didn't actually DIE, he was more likely in a trance-like state, slowed heartbeat, shallow breathing etc...

After all, Jesus was a type of yogi master and no doubt kept himself in this state to create the illusion of death, to later heal himself and show people that it is possible to transcend death.

Nothing spooky, god-like or supernatural, he had just learned a LOT when Jesus visited India in the 'missing years' in the bible.

Jesus wasn't the son of God, he was just a humble man with good intent.

Uh-huh, after being flogged to within an inch of his life, nailed to a cross and speared in the side, he managed to hang on and maybe he was just faking his death so they wouldn't beat him anymore. That's all I have to contribute, bowing out gracefully. Having a good day want to keep it that way.

reply to post by Bombeni


So you'd rather believe that he came BACK to life,as opposed to achieving a state of slowed reaction and resilience to pain?

Sorry mate, but Jesus wasn't a super hero, but he did acheive a state of higher consciousness.

IMO

I have tried to grasp the concept of death. I have pictured myself plenty of times, being in my 50's or 60's and just dying....

First comes fear, b/c i am having a great time being alive. Meeting lots of people, having both joyous and terrible experiences. Its just being ALIVE that is so entertaining! And I try to picture myself gone, nowhere, nonexistent. I try to detach myself from everything and try to see if there is anything. And I cant fathom it. Its far to difficult and it always takes my mind elsewhere, and soon i dont even realize my surroundings. Its like my mind wanders so deep into thought that I just stare at my computer lazily at work. But the same question comes to me everytime i do this....

If there is no afterlife, then what is the explanation on ghosts? I'm not a firm believer in ghosts or the afterlife, but i know that people have experienced some paranormal events, as I have.

Surfing youtube on ghosts and videos of it all, and actually finding some clips that arent grainy or out of focus, or plainly tampered....there are some vids that are very unexplainable. And it makes me ask, what is that? Could it be somebody's spirit actually living on? And it brings me back to the notion of life after death. Its a vicious circle of thought that I cant find an end to nor any answers due to lack of experience and information on any of this.

Personally, death is a topic for close companions and family. We will never truly know what happens when we die, until one experiences it. And even then, one may not experience death even if one dies. It is too difficult to conversate about it due to the many differing views and opinions.

Death is a topic best kept in ones thoughts

It's funny when I hear people that have so much faith in death, yet they will say it's not faith.

The only way you can say that we cease to exist after death, is if you have all knowledge. There's no way you can say we cease to exist after death without all knowledge or you just have faith in death.

A person can say there's life after death based on faith and circumstantial evidence from near death experiences, ghost sightings and psychics. Some of these psychics help police with cases like having pictures of the criminal drawn before the police even have a suspect.

Look at things like the unconscious self. Things like hypnosis as well as in some circles of psychology talks about the unconscious self or the collective unconscious.

So unconsciousness is a state of being that still exists when your not conscious. Unconscious doesn't mean death, it just means your not conscious of the individual ego but your aware of the collective. This is why in near death experiences people become more aware as they leave consciousness.

How can existence, cease to exist?

Originally posted by Wise Dome

The only way you can say that we cease to exist after death, is if you have all knowledge. There's no way you can say we cease to exist after death without all knowledge or you just have faith in death.

actually no it requires faith to say there is an after life

there is no proof that there is anything afterwards, so the logical reasonable response would be there probabily isnt anything but if evidence appears we will review it

it takes a leap of faith to say there is somthing afterwards as there is no proof it doesnt matter what you beleieve comes after it takes faith to get there

acording to what you said it takes faith to be an atheist

an atheist like silence is a lack of, not a becasue of status where faith is concerned

There is already quite some evidence for consciousness surviving death.

And there are ATS'ers (including myself) who have been to the afterlife on different occasions.

reply to post by TheBandit795


so we have the basis for a theory and the first set of results are in like all good sciencey things it needs to be reproduced and same/similar results achieved

this is to the dead people oobe, the still alive oobe dont indicate life after death because your not dead. if you were having one some one killed you then brought you back to life and you were oobe and saw it all then yes

thats why i said if eviedence comes along we can review it later ^_^

has anyone carried out a smiliar study to Pim van Lommel's do you know?

I have read a huge amount of material about OOBE's and NDE's. The experiences are practically the same. They experience the same movements, the same scenes, and usually the experiences are more vivid and intense than regular physical life, especially if they visit higher levels of existence (beyond where the deceased reside for example).

People have claimed to have met deceased relatives in both OOBE's and NDE's. Although I have not met any deceased people in my OOBE's, I have met a religious figure face to face in one OOBE. You can read my thread in RATS about that.

As for further scientific study on the subject. There is a huge one going on of which the results will be published in the future.

news.bbc.co.uk...

Here's more info:

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by TheBandit795


some of it the floated off tunnel of light saw elvis and family memebers etc
no offence but could be total tosh a brain fart either shuttingdown or restarting and this is the result no real way to test it in its own right

it only really gets interesting when they know of observable things happening at the time they are brain dead as this can be tested

if they are aware of the test info and are correct and then do the tunnel floaty bit this would then be a reasonable chunk of circumstancial (again it cant be tested independantly unless elvis/said family member re-appears to tell us so)

i didnt read the whole paper you linked (im lazy and multi tasking sorry) was there any correlating factors between the 18% religeon state of mind family ?

[edit on 23/10/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by noobfun
reply to post by TheBandit795

it only really gets interesting when they know of observable things happening at the time they are brain dead as this can be tested

Read the paper. This is called "veridical NDE's". You can also google the term.

Just wanted to go on the record and say that I always have believed in an Afterlife.

I was speaking about nothingness earlier to be on topic

Ok, off to read all these new links

By my opinion there are two possibilites. I love the first version, but I also not close out the second version.

The first version is the standard, our spirit is leaving the body method and we're seeing ourselves from the outside. There are many documentations about these sort of experiences. I prefer this one, but I'm also not closing out the second one.

The second version. Only very few knows, but after death the brain is not dead completely. It's still functioning for additional 5, maybe 6 hours. So, if it's true, those ones whose experienced after life experiences, maybe their mind is tricked them. If brain is working for additional hours after death, maybe those ones whose were dead for minutes, maybe for an hour, they've experienced the same what they would experience when they're dreaming. Dreaming is a different state of the mind, where no one really knows what is happening. Some are saying people are leaving their body sometimes in this condition, others, dreaming is nothing else, just dreaming. I believe the truth is somewhere between them.

So, if the second version is really true, there is the possibility when you're seeing the bright light, you're stepping out of your body, it's nothing more then a mere illusion, a dream of your mind. Many are dreamed that they're leaving their body or flying. What is happening if this near death experiences are the mix of version one and version two. Both of them could be right and both of them could be wrong.

Thanks for the article. I don't have time to read it right now - I'm going to a concert - but I'll definitely get to it within the next couple of days. What happens to our conscience when we die is something that I give a lot of thought to when I have nothing to do; usually when at work

I agree that we cannot understand death because it is the opposite of life. But think about this: No system in nature is capable of self-recognition without an outside help. It is simply logical if you think about it. In order to perceive something you have to be outside of it, outside of the system you're perceiving. Photons cannot perceive light because they are light itself. Yet, conscious beings like most humans are capable of perceiving their bodies, their organs and their brain amongst it very well. The capability to know what is happening to our brain, our emotions and senses is only possible if we exist outside as well as inside of them. If we were mere biological machines, we would probably act the same way as we do now... But one thing would be missing: We would not have any consciousness at all! There is physically no need for it! Life is physical, consciousness is metaphysical. We are consciousness itself and therefore we cannot understand metaphysical death because it represents the absence of consciousness (which is us). To put it simply: We will never truly understand consciousness and we will never experience death.

As a young child of about 6 or 7 I used to try and imagine what death was or would be/feel like.

Everything went dark and I couldn't think any further. Not scary but just silent and still.

Quite simple really and I still believe that's it.

End, gone, void, blank, still.

Of course, this is just pertaining to my thoughts, the long process of my decay and evolution through change into other things begins but that is nothing for me to be concerned with is it.

Star-stuff once, and star-stuff again one day.

How could anybody possibly imagine death, it would be virtually impossible to imagine something of the magnitude and complexity of that experience, in my humble view.
There are quite a number of people here on ATS who have had NDEs and OOBEs, and I would go so far as to suggest that any one of them would confirm that it was the most amazing experience of their lives.
Numerous articles have been written discounting the possibility of survival as scientific fact, but any person who has acually experienced it, will view such works as nothing more than academic hyperbole and conjecture.

Kindest regards,

Horsegiver.

Originally posted by horsegiver
it would be virtually impossible to imagine something of the magnitude and complexity of that experience, in my humble view.

unless one's perception of "death" is the opposite of yours. Nothing "magnitudal" or "complex".

A simple termination of all things.

Nothing complicated about it...no fuss, nothing to follow or imagine.

Why does death have to be complicated?

In answer to the actual OP: cos the idea sucks? But in realtion to any of the current theories... well we shall soon see won;t we?