Well, back to the original OP. During project MKUltra's prime the CIA was known to infiltrate many secret societies, not only for information, but to gather intelligence useful for physchological warfare.

The CIA operates via proxy, not only to confuse the interrogated but for plausible deniability. For example they have been rumored to dress up as FBI, KGB, etc as a cover.

It is my opinion that there were clandestine CIA operations using the identities of Freemasonry, Satanism, Alien Abuctions, etc. Not only to obfuscate their research but to distance themselves from the actual events.

In any event, its not possible to join them or get recruited so to speak. If they are still latent within the secret-societies they would most undoubtably operate outside its walls.

Originally posted by TRAVELS
And this from the head of world freemasonry, the Duke of Brunswick in the 1700s:

Ferdinand was Grand Master of the Order of Strict Observance. He had no sway over the United Grand Lodge of England nor any other Masonic bodies. It's worth noting that the Order of Strict Observance dissolved almost immediately after his death. So neither he, nor his order, seem to have the power or sway you're suggesting.

Originally posted by lazy1981
I will say that I don't like the whole DNA sample thing but I see how it can be beneficial. It's just (as u say) Orwellian to me. It's the Government that makes me uneasy with the collection of DNA samples, not the Free Masons.

Ah, but the Government never GETS the DNA samples unless the child goes missing and the parents hand over the swab. I think at this point actually PROCESSING unnecessary samples is both time and financially prohibitive. There's enough backlog just dealing with criminals. Thankfully, we're not overburdening them by providing the CHIP swabs until a child actually disappears. Until such time, the swab remains safely with the parent.

[edit on 11/18/2008 by JoshNorton]

Ah, but the Government never GETS the DNA samples unless the child goes missing and the parents hand over the swab. I think at this point actually PROCESSING unnecessary samples is both time and financially prohibitive. There's enough backlog just dealing with criminals. Thankfully, we're not overburdening them by providing the CHIP swabs until a child actually disappears. Until such time, the swab remains safely with the parent.

Remember it probably wouldn't be the Government itself that would keep the data, more likely a front-company acting on their (or whoever is pushing the agenda's) behalf...and the child's DNA will be easily collectable from the area, ie the chair they sat on...coud be as simple as putting a tissue in a bag for 'safe-keeping'...and because it's financially prohibitive doesn't necessarily mean it ain't happening, as those who fund it may see it as an investment...just some food for thought...

Cheers for the Templar link emsed, I'm looking into it now...


[edit on 19-11-2008 by TRAVELS]

Originally posted by lazy1981

Now some can say that the Templars ran off to Scotland, and some can say that they came to America. Who knows maybe some did. The one thing that we can all be certain of is that none of us were there and the real answer to that question is most likely lost to the sands of time....

Hi mate, point well made, although I would clarify that as 'the real answer to that question is probably locked in the vaults of the Vatican But while it remains a mystery we should consider all possibilities...cheers for the info though, I'll check it out too.

Incidentally, weren't the Templar Vaults empty when the authorities came to seize their assets? If so, how were other orders created from them? Not disagreeing at all, just saying that if that were proven to be the case it would seem to imply some 'papal maneuvering', or at least some covert reordering of some kind...I'd like to hear more about that...

[edit on 19-11-2008 by TRAVELS]

Originally posted by TRAVELS

Originally posted by lazy1981

Incidentally, weren't the Templar Vaults empty when the authorities came to seize their assets? If so, how were other orders created from them? Not disagreeing at all, just saying that if that were proven to be the case it would seem to imply some 'papal maneuvering', or at least some covert reordering of some kind...I'd like to hear more about that...

[edit on 19-11-2008 by TRAVELS]

Well, we are talking about medival europe, kings, and popes. Need I say more where "maneuvering" is concerned??? These popes were known to have mistresses, partake in oragies, commit bribery, and have people murderedfor various reasons (the papal throne being one). And this is a fact. So to that I say there was intrigue in abundance in those times.

However I'll take a more logical approach here. The Templars being so powerful it wouldn't be a reach to say that they had eyes and ears around Europe and some that were even in Rome. So, I am of the oppinion that at least some of them knew what was comming. If this is true then yes, the larger portion of their wealth would have been relocated (this is just conjecture on my part). But it's absurd to think that anyone has the organizational and logistical skills to move that much gold and silver from all over Europe and the Mediterranean faster than the plot to nab them moved.

And the areas that were not warned or could not move their "bank" (as it were) got surprised by the "authorities. And then you most likely had some that WOULD NOT run. We have to revisit my previous statement about how the Church was the end all and be all in those days and you aren't just talking about "Kinghts" they were Monks in the truest sense of the word. In those days a deree from the pope was like the WORD of GOD HIMSELF. Most Monks weren't going to go against that.

So some were folded into other Orders and other stations were made into new Orders. And maybe some did run away with the riches. And maybe it wasn't to Scotland. There is also the theory that they ran off to Switzerland. Like I said who knows????

Well, I'm quite sure that they were after the wealth. Not so much the "ideologies" as you say. The Templars were Catholic none the less so I'm not sure that I follow? Unless you mean to suggest that they returned from the Holy Land with some secret Gnosis? (Paper Clip nice comparison) I still can't fathom the logistics required to move such an immense amount of Silver and Gold so quickly and covertly. Even if they did know of this early on and started to move it someone should have seen it and the alarm would have been sounded. No, if they moved it they had to have done it just prior to the arrests or it never would have worked. And the logistics of wagon loads of Gold and Silver rule out the chance of it being done in secret way before hand. So there had to be a pay off to get it done at one fell swoop. And even some Templar Charters were left to the axe man. But that's just how I see it, being that there were no 18 wheelers around at that time to haul 30 to 40,000 lbs. of precious metal around in one shot.

As for your comment about the Popes and related matters, I agree. At least in the context or examples that you give. Your spot on target when it came to the Kings, Barons, Dukes, Lords and such. However in this case (besides the fact that some Templars were wealthy aristocrats anyway) most were peasants, commoners, surfs. That was their lineage, and there was a vast differance in mindframe between a King or knobleman and that of a surf or commoner. The common man didn't dare go against the Papal throne, he had no understanding as to what it was to live outside the realm of servitude anyway. Now the Kings and their likes where a different story, power hungry and willing to let nothing stand in their way. and an added bonus is that some were newly converted Christians anyway why let a "Pope" get in the way?

When you speak of whole countries being excommunicated it was due to the actions of their King. This was a tactic used by the Church in order to sow the seeds of rebellion and discontent between the Kings and their people. This way the Vatican could have it's way by using a monarchs populace against him. People were affraid of there Kings, but were more fearful of eternal damnation (as they saw it). And that's what brought about the Protestant Reformation, people were so fearful of this damnation that they bought salvation (indulgences) which were nowhere in the scripture and that made Luther question many other things. and it spread like wild fire. So yes you are correct indeed, question everything.

Back to my point (got side tracked) the Templar Monks/Knights weren't Kings and many wouldn't have disobeyed. You make good points thought.