OK then Stepford wives, for government read future government...that data is being kept by somebody believe you me, even the possibility should not be entertained. Why take a DNA swab for the rare occasion when a child may go missing, when a DNA sample can easily be taken from a piece of clothing? Why film them when a child's features can change dramatically in a matter of months?

If there is a much higher force at play manipulating the masons, the media, our governments, and just about everything else, (and the extensive research I have done regarding this doesn't look too rosy I'm afraid) at least I'll be able to tell my kids I saw what they were trying to do, so didn't support it...hope yours never ask...just remember this before you go back to sleep: In order to survive, fascism has to disguise itself as a democracy.

Originally posted by TRAVELS
...that data is being kept by somebody believe you me...

If it is handed directly to the parents how would the government somehow obtain a copy without parental consent? There is no intermediary, all collected information is immediately given to the child's parents with no copies being kept by the lodge or by any other person or persons.

Why take a DNA swab for the rare occasion when a child may go missing, when a DNA sample can easily be taken from a piece of clothing? Why film them when a child's features can change dramatically in a matter of months?

Yeah!!! And why fingerprint them too because everyone knows that fingerprints can go bad if not properly refrigerated in a goverment approved recepticle.

If there is a much higher force at play manipulating the masons, the media, our governments, and just about everything else, (and the extensive research I have done regarding this doesn't look too rosy I'm afraid)

I am very much looking forward to you sharing your extensive research with us so we may appreciate its depth and scope more thoroughly.

Originally posted by TRAVELS
OK then Stepford wives, for government read future government...that data is being kept by somebody believe you me, even the possibility should not be entertained. Why take a DNA swab for the rare occasion when a child may go missing, when a DNA sample can easily be taken from a piece of clothing? Why film them when a child's features can change dramatically in a matter of months?

If there is a much higher force at play manipulating the masons, the media, our governments, and just about everything else, (and the extensive research I have done regarding this doesn't look too rosy I'm afraid) at least I'll be able to tell my kids I saw what they were trying to do, so didn't support it...hope yours never ask...just remember this before you go back to sleep: In order to survive, fascism has to disguise itself as a democracy.

Well, it seems again we are at an impasse.

It is impossible to prove a negative. I cannot prove that there ISN'T a conspiracy here.

All I can tell you is that I am a Database Administrator with a Master's Degree in IT and I am a mason. I have done perhaps a half-dozen Child ID Programs in the last two years.

The digital picture and video are the only "records". They are burned directly to CD and given to the parents.

The remainder of the program like fingerprinting, DNA swab, etc are all done by hand and given to the parents. The only thing we leave with is a torn off piece of paper with the parents signature.

The reason the DNA sample is taken is because a sterile cheek swab is done and then the swab is placed back inside the packaging and sealed.

By carefully storing the swab the DNA can be used for perhaps 25 years. You can never get a DNA sample from clothing that is that good.


So, here is the logical impasse.

You have made an accusation, or an indictment, if you will. You have stated the Masonic Child ID Program is being used for nefarious purposes.

You have presented no evidence other than your opinion and your 'research', but you cite no sources.

If you have no evidence then your logic is invalid and your premise is false.

If you can offer no facts then there is nothing to defend.

I would encourage you to attend a Chid ID Event in your area and ask hard questions. Examine the activities. Take a look for yourself and don't take the word of a few conspiracy-theoristes as factual.

Originally posted by TRAVELS
OK then Stepford wives, for government read future government...that data is being kept by somebody believe you me, even the possibility should not be entertained. Why take a DNA swab for the rare occasion when a child may go missing, when a DNA sample can easily be taken from a piece of clothing? Why film them when a child's features can change dramatically in a matter of months?

If there is a much higher force at play manipulating the masons, the media, our governments, and just about everything else, (and the extensive research I have done regarding this doesn't look too rosy I'm afraid) at least I'll be able to tell my kids I saw what they were trying to do, so didn't support it...hope yours never ask...just remember this before you go back to sleep: In order to survive, fascism has to disguise itself as a democracy.

We might as well get this one out of the way too, while we are at it.

What is your definition of Fascism?

I offer dictionary.com but would be willing to hear your opinion:

(sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

What fascism is causing you or anyone to do something you don't want?

Surely if fascism were alive we would not be posting so openly on a message board.

And I couldn't resist this one from Adam Weischaft:

'The great strength of our order lies in its concealment; let it never appear in any place in its own name, but always covered by another name, and another occupation. None is fitter than the three lower degrees of freemasonry; the public is accustomed to it, expects little from it, and therefore takes little notice of it...these good folk swell our numbers and fill our money-box. Set yourselves to work, these gentlemen must be made to nibble at the bait...But this sort of people must always be made to believe that the grade they have reached is the last.'

Think that neatly ties that one up...one more because I'm enjoying this, then I'll leave you with your consciences. This is from the book 'Occult Theocracy.'

'We must allow all the federations to continue just as they are, with their systems, their central authorities and their diverse modes of correspondance between high grades of the same rite, organised as they are at the present, but we must create a super rite which will remain unknown, to which we will call those masons of high degree whom we shall select...Through this supreme rite, we will govern all freemasonry which will become the one international centre, the more powerful because its direction will be unknown.'
Lady Queensborough

Originally posted by TRAVELS
And this from the head of world freemasonry, the Duke of Brunswick in the 1700s:

I'd say I'm not receptive because your "research" seems to not be from reputable sources, as it's the Duke of Kent that is the royal patron of UNITED KINGDOM Freemasonry, and at no point in freemasonry has anyone been the head of "world freemasonry" because no such thing exists.

Also, thats one of those quotes that mysteriously is only found on youtube videos and conspiracy websites, and no one can seem to find the original source for it. Probably because its not real. But in any case, the freemasonry angle does not work.

I also do not understand this random "et me find a quote that someone says there are secrets in freemasonry" thing. Why is a quote of someone making some grandiose statement that "we are plotting within freemasonry to do some dubious dead" make it true? Do you have any proof these statements are even real, and if they are what evidence exists that they are true?


[edit on 14-11-2008 by LowLevelMason]

Oh I forget to ask have you had your rite of intrusting yet LLM

Youve undergone that?

Kind regards

Elf

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Some six weeks ago and in fact realised part of Denying Ignorance is offering truth against lies, and I had a change of heart I don't like excluding anyone.

For the love of God put me back on. You offer nothing but mistruth, manipulation, and deliberate ignorance. Its only out of sheer fascination that I can't bring myself to putting you on ignore, so if you ignore me first you can remove me from my misery. Debunking you is like watching a train wreck: its horrible to watch you do this to yourself, and yet I just can't keep myself from stopping.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
How does posting a Reunion dinner prove how quickly you have been able to learn as you say the Degrees when two week ago or so as I show above and Backed up by another Mason you had no idea of a fundamental of the higher aspects of masonry?

No sir, you are not going to try to manipulate this and change the subject. You originally claimed, based off the comments of some delusional ATS poster, that I could not be the degree I said I was. I debunked you. It is quite possible to be a 32nd degree mason, its incredibly easy to do. To be a 32nd degree mason you don't have to have to do anything but sit through the degrees - but again, were you interested in doing research here instead of trolling you would have found that out quickly.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Have you completed a thorough evolution in your understanding of the entire degrees & mysteries in less than a Month?

It is a ignorant person who believes anyone can learn all the lessons of the degrees in a month, and a even more ignorant mason who claims such. However, its been far longer than a month - far longer than a few years - since I sat through them all the first time. Its a life time thing, not a "ok I've learned it all and I'm done" process. But this again is not the point - you tried to act like I couldn't possibly "really" be a 32nd degree mason because that was just such a high degree - and now you've been debunked.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Read my posts my LLM going way back I have a very very thorough knowledge of the mysteries and the history of what what you are so supposedly well versed in.

You give yourself far to much praise. I have never claimed to be versed in anything except freemasonry, only because I'm a mason.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
I am not Anti mason, I don't like the secrecy any more than I am Anti Catholic but I don't like the Secrecy and corruption that affords favours and such like outside of the normal Legal process of the Lands we live in.

If you don't like secrecy then I'm sure you don't mind posting a picture of yourself, your address, and your credit card numbers. Then you have a point. Until then, you don't.

And of course if you had done research into freemasonry you would know there is no "giving favors" involved. In fact that would be exactly the type of thing that a mason would get kicked out for.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
I also don't like organisations that have people devoting their lives, money and integrity to if those members are unaware of the truth of what they support.

How good it is then that freemasonry takes for the 32nd degree mason about 2 nights a month (Blue Lodge and Scottish Rite Meeting) to be active, costs about $100 a year, and promotes values of truth and morality. Oh, and maybe a day or two a year devoted to a charity project. Nothing for you not to like there, since it takes little devotion of time or money, and unless you are opposed to morality masonry should get your stamp of approval.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
If you are angry that I challenge you, think a bit LLM mason maybe just maybe I actually am in a way looking out for your exposure to something i know you don't fully comprehend.

Trust me friend, I am not angry at all - I feel for you that you decide to be this ignorant about this subject and that you are so determined to continue to display the ignorance that you are now forum stalking me.

But I do find it most fascinating that you - who has so far clearly demonstrated a lack of knowledge about freemasonry in all the ways that matter - comprehends the subject more than a member of the fraternity does.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
I do however stand up strongly against Lies and will not support delusion or illusion in any way at all.

I literally just laughed out loud. You have done nothing but supported lies and delusions from some random poster who clearly is not a mason but you took his lies and delusions as gospel! You have just defined IRONIC.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
So then over the last 2 weeks what do you now say your understanding of the "Light" is then... when did you accept and learn this?

My understanding is what it has been for years. Masonic light is a metaphor for the seeking of masonic knowledge. That's it. Nothing more. Although for those of us who are masons, thats quite enough. But sadly for the anti-mason crowd, it has nothing to do with the completely debunked "Lucifer" nonsense.

Originally posted by MischeviousElf
Oh I forget to ask have you had your rite of intrusting yet LLM

Youve undergone that?

Kind regards

Elf

Mackey, which is whom you got that term from, is like every other masonic author. He is not an authoritative source and his words are his own and do not carry meaning for all of freemasonry.

There is no specific "rite of intrusting" per say, Mackey is describing the process that takes place in every single degree. The degree is performed, you think about it, and then a lecture is performed to further explain what you just saw. It happens in every single degree, it is not a separate thing.

[edit on 15-11-2008 by LowLevelMason]

probably foolish of me to post, since an argument is the only thing perpetuating this thread, but...

i am of the strict opinion that there is esoteric information coded into the rituals of freemasonry which, when decoded, reveals to the man the exact nature of our existence and the control structure which has been implemented since the dawn of man....things that were hidden for this specific purpose.

from there, it is a simple execution of this knowledge in order to insert one-self into that control structure. the information itself is the organizing principle. there are no "secret orders" or Higher-Level masons. you are promoted within the lodge and also within society's control structure according to your own illumination.

this is what makes one such as LLM able to deny it. because likely he has not truly understood the information in front of him.

Originally posted by tgidkp
i am of the strict opinion that there is esoteric information coded into the rituals of freemasonry which, when decoded, reveals to the man the exact nature of our existence and the control structure which has been implemented since the dawn of man....things that were hidden for this specific purpose.

Except from the history of the creation of the ritual we know that is just not the case. These rituals were developed by men..intelligent men...but not rulers of the world.

Originally posted by tgidkp
there, it is a simple execution of this knowledge in order to insert one-self into that control structure. the information itself is the organizing principle. there are no "secret orders" or Higher-Level masons. you are promoted within the lodge and also within society's control structure according to your own illumination.

That is the function of all knowledge, except there is no grand control structure involved. Masonry is what you make of it. It takes a life time to understand the ritual, even if you study it every day 24 hours a day. No one, not even the best of the masonic scholars, claim to fully "get it."

Originally posted by tgidkp
this is what makes one such as LLM able to deny it. because likely he has not truly understood the information in front of him.

No, it just means people like you want to see something that is not really there, and create a non-falsifiable theory to dismiss those who point out reality.

There is much to learn from masonic ritual and it must be studied for years to begin to grasp it. But to use this as a function for some grand conspiracy and then dismiss those who HAVE studied and see no evidence for it does not prove the point.

[edit on 15-11-2008 by LowLevelMason]

Ah you see you ask for proof, I provide evidence...and you deny it based on the fact it was a human being that quoted the source! Bible anyone? I also liked how you completely omitted from commenting on the other sources I referenced; is it that they don't compute with your drip-fed worldview, or was all that screaming for evidence just in the vain hope that I'd say 'er well actually yeah I'm just making it all up...you got me man, you got me...?!'

Well yeah I must admit that if the only way you'd believe me was if I'd sacrificed a small child myself then I can't help, official accounts and documented evidence are as far as I get...keep squealing about your innocence LLM, the fact is the well-informed seem to know more about your Order than you do, that makes you a bit of a waste of time doesn't it? I suppose in your position I'd be screaming out for validation too...

Proof of a global conspiracy is all around...if you step outside of fear long enough to allow yourself to see it. Just ask the families of 9/11.

And for the chronically deluded like LLM, please understand that there's no shame in one day saying 'Look you know I've been made a fool of...I bought into the propaganda but now I see the truth'...we were all fooled once, don't let your ego trap you in a dark place, because some day soon, everyone will know the truth...I just hope the terminally asleep don't have to wait until UN soldiers are battering down their door. And they won't have got the wrong house because you yes-men helped them catalogue us all...