Open Challenge! Convince us: WHY aliens should come and show themselves?

reply to post by Majorion

Maybe they're told or ordered not to disclose, again because of the severe consequences.

There are two potential things going on with this question.

The first is the literal question in the title. Why should they? Well, thats up to them. Theres nothing saying they should reveal themselves at all.

The second part is more "Assuming theyre trying to reveal themselves, why should they do it in any particular way?"

I can only answer that by saying that if there are beings, of at least equal intelligence, who WANT to make themselves known, surely theyd do it in a way we could recognize, rather than just bombarding us with airy-fairy signs that no one can pick up on.
Surely theyd double park in times square, rather than send warm fuzzy feelings out into the collective consciousness.

Its a bit like the 'god reveals himself every day' thing, and then banging on about the beauty of sunsets, seeing mary's face on some burnt toast and the miracle of childbirth.

reply to post by citizenc


In answer to the question "What do you think has been going on then ?" ... Well Im not saying they havent tried, but I think they underestimate the paranoia on this earth, the weakness of the human psyche, and ultimately the xenophobic nature of the masses. If there has been a large proliferation of contact , then it seems roundly idiotic that nothing has come to light of a more iron clad nature . The other problem is , that although I am sure contact has occured , Im not convinced that its happened in enough numbers , and there has been not enough physical and unavoidable evidence. Give us monoliths, spore spires, something that no one could concievably hide from the people.
I mean I wouldnt for a moment deny the fact of the existance of aliens, but I feel that they are going about letting us know about them , all the wrong way . If they had a clue what sort of race we are, they would KNOW that there are folks here on earth who like everyone to look at the ground and never raise thier faces to the light of truth. But they appear to individuals , or small groups , or as lights in the sky that can be explained away as this and that. Its not going to work. They ought to hijack the television or something .

reply to post by TrueBrit


Excellent point, and hit right on...

What would be "acceptable" levels of contact without overt and "public" disclosure?

Most people would expect this sort of announcement to come right out of the very media that controls and slants our thoughts and perceptions.

What makes you think that the people who control mass methods of communication would possibly be interested in disclosing such contacts?

In fact, there are SO many things at work, in many levels, but since they involve spiritual growth, realization of changing paradigms, and the eventual disclosure of higher potentials and rights of the individual as an eternal manifestation of "divine" sparks, then the TPTB will NOT allow such information to come out as strongly and clearly as it could.

In fact, most contacts of practically ANY type are ridiculed and dismissed as "exotic" phenomena, while there really is nothing other-worldly about our life and the experiences in it.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by citizenc]

It would be hilarious if they came and said "We have been monitoring your skies, and not a SINGLE ufo has come to your spaces within the last million years". You are all deluded, and not worth our time.

reply to post by benjiskylar


It would definitely be the highest moment of humor in most of history...

"Too bad" that is not the case, but the thought of it made me laugh out loud... thanks for a good joke...

reply to post by citizenc


I am an engineer. Me and my mates from around the world are making fake ufos for launch sometime in 2009, or perhaps before . The tech has been around for 50 years to do this, it's just really cheap now. We think it will be awesome to see how people react to a hovering disc, awesome light, laser & sound show etc...

If we can do this on our own time as a hobby, what could someone motivated do? A lot I suspect....

reply to post by benjiskylar


Probably... that is the reason why a lot of genuine contacts experiences can be dismissed as paranoia, classical new-age desires, etc.

The interesting thing to consider is that, UFOs were not and invented theme, upon which then the "contact" community built its base and evolved, but all this interest, the endless paraphernalia, come from hundreds or even thousands of years of experiences have given "birth" if you will, to this latter phenomenon that we now take more seriously...

Even though I belong to a contact category that cannot be easily explained away, I still appreciate the good humor, and as a matter fact, I guarantee you that both THEM as well as I will be having a good time if your stunts go well...

Keep me informed...

reply to post by citizenc


I want to believe in contact, and no disrespect, but I think most can be explained away simply by pure psychological means. See derren brown for examples of manipulation. Self-manipulation, lucid dreams etc should account for all contactees experiences. I just don't see why they wouldn't come out and say hi if there were going to contact specific people. It doesn't make any sense.

On the fake ufos- who's to say we haven't already started?

Making something like what prophet yaweh uses would be especially simple.

Heya Citizenc, not sure but i think you mist my earlier post on the first page, i would love your thoughts about that one. Funny thing is that the same night i wrote it i saw something scooting by in the sky, while looking out of my bedroom window, that was not a plane (lived near to a airport all my life so i know how they look ). It was pretty cool.

reply to post by Harman


Kind of like personal confirmation?...

Sorry about not commenting on your post...

The answer is pretty much what I have shared with others, in the sense that, for the time being, people in general are demonstrating high levels of non-critical thinking, mass-media dependency, and the faults in the educational process that you so well described.

The consequences of open disclosure of "alien" phenomena, after the initial shock and fascination wear off, would be of the swinging balance, and the risks of a backlash are too great in the present mental environment that is being enacted.

Gradual work in contact information, as well the "beneath the surface" works in consciousness that I have mentioned in Smokingman's thread, are all directed to readying Humanity to more sophisticated and challenging information...

Foe the same reasons, my answer to the previous post, on how most contact experiences can be explained away psychologically and so forth, is that while this work of acclimatizing Humanity to contact in a formal fashion is still under way, most exterior or "objective" manifestations will be kept to a minimum, for the distraction element would still be too much a burden on the growing-up still under way.

So we come back to the rhetorical answers to my rhetorical question, because the lack of an appropriate environment in which to welcome such ideas, reflects the distance still to be surmounted.

Originally posted by citizenc
reply to post by Harman

 

Kind of like personal confirmation?...

Sorry about not commenting on your post...

No problem just thought you missed it and always am delighted to read your comments The mini fly by could be a challenge to do what i explained in the post so yeah i talked the talk maybe they are prodding me to walk the walk (or just saying hi of course)

Thanks and i see you commented on skyfloatings thread, i think he is on to something there. No 'mass contact' but individual contact to the people that are aligning themselves with the positive vibrations. It works two fold. People serious in wanting to say 'hi' have the way to do it and their way of life will take a turn for the positive.

reply to post by Harman


And by so saying, along with Sky's thread, we are beginning to get somewhere with this, and closer to the answer...

And I am glad you are participating too, so just keep opening up, and the answers will keep coming...

I'll have a shot:

Assumptions:
1. FTL travel is not possible.
2. Fermi's paradox has an answer

The only rational way to explore the universe is using von-neumann probes. These probes won't make contact until signs of intelligent life have been made. A logical way to categorise intelligence is to classify civilisations by energy output.

The sensible thing is that the von-neumann probes are here, and once we are advanced enough, a message is sent back, then some years later, they will arrive in proportion to the distance between us. Assuming the distance of us - them is > our lifetimes, which is incredibly likely, we can't expect to see any at LEAST for our lifetimes.

We have only recently had a vast increase in our energy output remember, and it's the primary method in which to categorise the technological superiority of a star.

This is why I believe people who have encountered aliens are seeing things from their subconscious/dream states.

reply to post by benjiskylar


Speaking strictly from the energy output standpoint, the reason WHY there are more contacts now, the genuine ones, is because there is a correlation between the energy handling capabilities of a civilization and the capacity for communication.

The problem with trying to prove something like this is that, for the time being, the "under the surface" characteristics of our reality remain understudied and generally unacknowledged by the scientific community, so some ingredients that compose our physical capabilities will also be left aside for the time this continues to be so.

After a certain point in development, one can certainly appreciated the problems and perils of not balancing energy and technology capabilities with the corresponding ethical and spiritual development that will enable correct and productive use of such possibilities.

Going back to the probes and the Fermi paradox, the problem is that both those ideas presuppose DESIRE to be found and/or noted.

Once a civilization has "graduated" successfully into energy handling (both individually and collectively, which is kind of a "spiritual rule"...) it is realized that IT IS NOT NECESSARILY A GOOD IDEA to let your presence be "known" to others who might not be ready to handle certain informations.

The previous (if any) desire to expand or reach out as Von Neumann probes can then be easily reversible.
However, before a civilization is ready to create a VN probe in any danger of succeeding, it will have by then realized the inherent problems of energy management through learning and moral responsibility, as could for example happen through historical lessons such as a nuclear conflict.

So, as a reinforcement to the premise that "they" still do not overtly show themselves, can be explained partially by the explanation above. Humanity is still showing great instability while dealing with its own technological advancements, and the last thing needed would be factors that can further destabilize the present fragile psychical stability.

Instead, going back to my rhetorical question, we are trying to come up with good reasons why it COULD be the other way around.

reply to post by Harman


Right, and since you care to say it here....

This is on of the reasons why individual contacts have been chosen to start MOVING things in Humanity's psyche...

The further advancement, as I responded to the previous post, of our energy-handling capabilities, is leading to the "discovery" of methods of communication that belong inherently to aspects, perfectly within reach of any person, of the present human make-up.

Sky's is just an example of how this "rediscoveries" can begin to roll on a large scale yet individual-based movement.

AFTER this has taken some ground and OTHER things that need to happen take place, we can begin to have a case.

Thanks again for your much appreciated presence in the ATS places that help further knowledge and productive discussion on these issues that badly need it...

[edit on 25-10-2008 by citizenc]

Just going to ask for some clarifications here. I didn't understand much of what you wrote.

Originally posted by citizenc
reply to post by benjiskylar

 

Speaking strictly from the energy output standpoint, the reason WHY there are more contacts now, the genuine ones, is because there is a correlation between the energy handling capabilities of a civilization and the capacity for communication.

>> Can you expand on this? I must be reading it incorrectly or something.

The problem with trying to prove something like this is that, for the time being, the "under the surface" characteristics of our reality remain understudied and generally unacknowledged by the scientific community, so some ingredients that compose our physical capabilities will also be left aside for the time this continues to be so.
>> Again, I don't follow.

After a certain point in development, one can certainly appreciated the problems and perils of not balancing energy and technology capabilities with the corresponding ethical and spiritual development that will enable correct and productive use of such possibilities.
>> I think the two should fall into line together, which is why I believe any aliens capable of reaching us will be benevolent. High IQ is associated with pacifism for example.

Going back to the probes and the Fermi paradox, the problem is that both those ideas presuppose DESIRE to be found and/or noted.
>> No they presuppose that SOMEONE in their entire world has the desire to search for life. I think we can assume this is very likely.

Once a civilization has "graduated" successfully into energy handling (both individually and collectively, which is kind of a "spiritual rule"...) it is realized that IT IS NOT NECESSARILY A GOOD IDEA to let your presence be "known" to others who might not be ready to handle certain informations.
>> Disagree. As technology increases, so much ethics. Otherwise, it will eventually cause a civilisation-ending event.

The previous (if any) desire to expand or reach out as Von Neumann probes can then be easily reversible.
>> What?

However, before a civilization is ready to create a VN probe in any danger of succeeding, it will have by then realized the inherent problems of energy management through learning and moral responsibility, as could for example happen through historical lessons such as a nuclear conflict.
>> We are almost there now. See reprap. Commercial spaceflight is almost upon us. Nano is here, and it's looking like following a power law just like every other technology - it's going to happen in the next 20. Will we be ready to accept the consequences? Probably not, but someones going to do it.

So, as a reinforcement to the premise that "they" still do not overtly show themselves, can be explained partially by the explanation above. Humanity is still showing great instability while dealing with its own technological advancements, and the last thing needed would be factors that can further destabilize the present fragile psychical stability.
>> You assume they exist. If they use von neumann probes, the only reliable metric for a civilisation will not be their culture but their energy output: otherwise you would need a probe capable of super-advanced AI, above that of any normal human. Unlikely.

Instead, going back to my rhetorical question, we are trying to come up with good reasons why it COULD be the other way around.

Umm... can you restate?

Oh yeah, and the reason they ARE going to come and show themselves:

- while we may not have set off the energy threshold for being worth contacting, we should be there in the next 50 years if we survive the journey.
- its a long trip from whereever they are.

So they'll be here, it'll just take a long, long while due to the distances involved. That's all.

reply to post by citizenc


You cannot ask why until you know the answer to what, where, when and how. Otherwise you might as well ask for people to speculate wildly.

There is no answer.

-rrr

Originally posted by rickyrrr
reply to post by citizenc

 

You cannot ask why until you know the answer to what, where, when and how. Otherwise you might as well ask for people to speculate wildly.

And, heaven forbid that would never happen at ATS.