Do not worship the Cruxifix, page 4

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 10:50 AM

link

Originally posted by Colonel
They will come across wise and holier than thou while disobeying God's strict law on idols. And even with this verse, which SPECIFICALLY refers to the cross, they will completely ignore or lawyerly parse the meaning so as to continue to do what is wrong in God's eyes. Here is the verse and the bolded key passage in prophecy that implicitly tells you that this crucifix is WRONG.

Jeremiah 10

1 Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says:

"Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good."

Can someone tell that Jeremiah is NOT talking about the crucifix here? Doubt it.

[Edited on 27-3-2004 by Colonel]

Again this text was not written to you and I. It was written to the Israelites 600 years before the birth of Jesus. The purpose of Jeremiahs text was to urge God�s people to turn from their sins and back to God, It was written to Judah and its capital city Jerusalem around 627-586 B.C. He is clearly talking about the creation and worship of idols IN THE DAY.

If you don�t believe that, maybe you can see the truth in this. We have already defined symbology and idolatry. If a person was to believe that that passage was referring to Jesus on the cross it still rings true. The worshiping of a crucifix as it�s own God would be Idolatry and against the word of God. If you worshiped the physical object of the scare crow in the melon patch as a separate and almighty God, again you would be practicing Idolatry.

If a Christian or Catholic has a cross or crucifix in their position they aren�t worshiping the object as it�s own God. They simply use it as a symbol of their faith. That passage is talking about Idolatry not Symbology.

Read all the text in that passage.
bible.gospelcom.net...

[Edited on 28-3-2004 by kinglizard]

Colonel

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 11:59 AM

link

"Again this text was not written to you and I. It was written to the Israelites 600 years before the birth of Jesus. The purpose of Jeremiahs text was to urge God�s people to turn from their sins and back to God, It was written to Judah and its capital city Jerusalem around 627-586 B.C. He is clearly talking about the creation and worship of idols IN THE DAY."

He wasn't writing to the people of that day because Jeremiah is a book of prophecy. How can this be a prophecy when the events are occuring at the same time of the writing.

Furthermore, no one in THAT day would believe a statue would move. The statue was a repsresentation, a symbol, of their god---just like the crucifix is---and this is forbidden by God.

Next?

[Edited on 28-3-2004 by Colonel]

xposedintel

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 12:07 PM

link

Again we have a bunch of protestants relying on what their ministers have told them about Catholicism. Again they are wrong! Catholics do not and have never worshiped anyone other than God Himself.

We do venerate the saints and angels as champions of Gods true faith, using them as our examples of how to live the holiest possible lives.

I guess you can compare it to the secular world and their veneration of sports figures or movie stars. Dont people try to emulate those who they feel are champions of this world? The answer is yes.

Kids love sports figures and so do adults who wish they could be like them in every way including having their money. They also hang thier pictures on their walls and worship them to some extent.

They may not get on their knees but its still a form of worship, especially when they would rather attend a ball game on Sunday then give God due honor. Im sure alot of protestants as well as Catholics can relate to doing that in violation of God's commandments to keep holy the sabboth day.

So why do you criticize Catholics for trying to emulate those who were not God but lived holier lives than you or I will ever live! They give us hope of attaining that holiness to which God calls all of us. Remember Christ said in Matt 5,20
"For I tell you, that unless your justice exceeds more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

If you had a friend who attained great wealth from something he or she did, Would you not ask that friend to reveal their secret to you? To instruct you on how to attain the same wealth! To guide you every step of the way to make sure you could attain the same. you know you would!

Catholics do the same when they ask for help from those who are now with God and attained great holiness here on earth. How can protestants say it is wrong to ask a friend for help when they do it all the time here on earth?

Do you protestants feel that life is over after death? That those who are closer to God, now that they are in heaven have no more concern for those on earth? How ludicrous is that?
Doesnt the bible say in Luke 15,10
"So I say to you, there shall be joy before the angels of God upon one sinner doing penance."

Obvioulsy those in heaven are very concerned with what we here on earth are doing.

I think we have a grave misunderstanding between the protestants have been taught by their miguided ministers and what the Catholic Church teaches here.

I say to the protestants, learn what the Catholic faith is about before you criticise. Maybe once you learn you will have no need to criticize. You will then come to learn that it is the true faith of Jesus Christ!

Illmatic67

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 12:32 PM

link

Originally posted by Leveller
In that case the whole of Islam is guilty of idolism.
What do you think Mecca is?
Whatever your denial - it is a symbol. There is no escaping that fact.

That is the most outrageous and uninformed post ever about Islam.

Mecca is the holiest city in Islam. How are Muslims worshipping Mecca? How is Mecca a form of idoltary?

All Muslims pray towards Mecca for a sense of unity and brotherhood of all Muslims across the world.

Mecca a symbol? That makes absolutely no sense. Would you say the same for Jerusalem? Because Jews pray towards Jerusalem when they pray.

Originally posted by Leveller

As for angels? The big three religions aren't exacty monotheistic. All three worship angels. When you look at this in the cold light of day, angels are another aspect of paganism where many gods were worshipped as a part of the one.

Ummmmmmm, NO.

Muslims don't worship angels. There is another outrageous statement.

Show me your proof or examples of how Muslims worship angels because this I have to hear.

The same for the Jews. The Jews don't worship angels.

Leveller

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 12:48 PM

link

Wether you think it outrageous or not, it is a simple fact.
Every Muslim has the ambition of making the pilgrimage to Mecca. It is a symbol of their devoutness.

Muslims have the same argument concerning the Black Stone as the Christians do their cross. But yet again, like it or not, it is a symbol.

Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

But then why kiss it at all if it is not symbolic? I don't deny that the Muslims don't worship it, but to say it does not have a symbolic meaning is absolutely ludicrous.

You can't hold the same argument justifying your belief as you can with the one you use to condemn the Christians.

And though you deny worshipping angels, wasn't it Gabriel who gave the Prophet Mohammed the order that Muslims should only worship Allah? If you deny worshipping an angel, you certainly can't deny worshipping the angel's word.

So do me a favour. Take your fundamentalist argument elsewhere. I can see the paganism and the symbolism within Judasim and Christianity, just as you can. But I can also see it rooted deep in Islam. You refuse to look because you are blinded by your urgency to defame a competing religion.

kinglizard

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 12:49 PM

link

Colonel,

When we search the rest of the Old Testament, we find many other examples of trees being planted, cut down, or carved into idols. One of the most common examples of a tree idol was the Asherah, mentioned often in the Old Testament. Asherah was a pagan goddess that was worshiped throughout the Mediterranean world. She was considered to be the goddess of the sea, the consort of El, and the mother of Baal. She was always represented as a tree or pole, either planted or erected, then decorated. There are many warnings in the Old Testament about the Asherah tree. For example, in Exodus 34.

Exodus 34:11-14

Obey what I command you today. I will drive out before you the Amorites, Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. Be careful not to make a treaty with those who live in the land where you are going, or they will be a snare among you. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Look how many times Asherah pole is found in the Bible.

[Edited on 28-3-2004 by kinglizard]

paperclip

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 01:20 PM

link

Originally posted by Leveller
Wether you think it outrageous or not, it is a simple fact.
Every Muslim has the ambition of making the pilgrimage to Mecca. It is a symbol of their devoutness.

Muslims have the same argument concerning the Black Stone as the Christians do their cross. But yet again, like it or not, it is a symbol.

Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

But then why kiss it at all if it is not symbolic? I don't deny that the Muslims don't worship it, but to say it does not have a symbolic meaning is absolutely ludicrous.

.....And though you deny worshipping angels, wasn't it Gabriel who gave the Prophet Mohammed the order that Muslims should only worship Allah? ......

.... But I can also see it rooted deep in Islam. .

Oh, man....
Mecca is a PLACE where people worship God, Mecca itself is NOT worshipped, the stone is not worshiped. You won't find litle black stones in muslim homes with candles infront of it, or little black stones around muslim necks. You wont find images of mecca in muslim homes, there are no pictures of mohammad, no statues of him or any other prophet, there are no images of God ANYWHERE. Have you ever been in a mosque? It is absolutely forbidden to put any kind of idol there, there are no statues, no pictures of people, no black stones. You cannot compare cross with black stone.
Angels are NOT worshiped. Where did you get that idea??? Gabriel was an angel to whom God comanded to bring GOD'S word to people. There isnt a single image of gabriel, not a single statue, not a single prayer that worships him in any way.
The outmost, holiest, most important command in Islam is that people should ONLY worship one God, nobody else.
You cannot possibly compare Christianity and Islam and say it is the same. What exactly are you comparing??? There are no idols of anything whatsoever in Islam.

Colonel

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 01:21 PM

link

Hmmm. So all this was in Exodus. Wasn't the Exodus BEFORE Jeremiah? And isn't Jeremiah a group of prophecies on the future? You can keep trying but all you're doing is providing excuses to do what you know is sinful.

Next?

[Edited on 28-3-2004 by Colonel]

porschedrifter

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 01:27 PM

link

or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.

Hmm I wonder what that means..... Ufo's? Aliens?

kinglizard

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 01:42 PM
link

Originally posted by Colonel
Hmmm. So all this was in Exodus. Wasn't the Exodus BEFORE Jeremiah? And isn't Jeremiah a group of prophecies on the future? You can keep trying but all you're doing is providing excuses to do what you know is sinful.

Next?

[Edited on 28-3-2004 by Colonel]

Jeremiah's prophecies

You choose to see only what you want to see.

Next...

Leveller

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 01:52 PM
link

Originally posted by paperclip

Mecca is a PLACE where people worship God, Mecca itself is NOT worshipped, the stone is not worshiped.
You cannot possibly compare Christianity and Islam and say it is the same. What exactly are you comparing???

Firstly, where did I say that the stone is worshipped? Read my post again and take it in. I stated that the stone is a symbol. Denial of this is denial of fact.

Secondly, I can't compare Islam and Christianity? You're joking right? Either that or you have absolutely no understanding of the evolution of the religions.
Both Christianity and Judaism are offshoots of Judaism which itself is a development of earlier concepts. Denial again, is denial of fact.

So before you act all high and mighty and knowlegable why don't you first read my post properly and secondly research the origins of religion?

Colonel

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 03:21 PM
link

Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by Colonel
Hmmm. So all this was in Exodus. Wasn't the Exodus BEFORE Jeremiah? And isn't Jeremiah a group of prophecies on the future? You can keep trying but all you're doing is providing excuses to do what you know is sinful.

Next?

[Edited on 28-3-2004 by Colonel]

Jeremiah's prophecies

You choose to see only what you want to see.

Next...

So, I'm supposed to beleive some bogus website rather what I see is what in front of my face. Imust allow someone else to do the thinking for me, claiming to be scholarly, rather than objectively look at what is in my face.

That's why you will always mess up. Trust your own mind rather than some one elses b/c someone else may have an agenda which does not fit yours.

kinglizard

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 04:00 PM
link

Originally posted by Colonel
So, I'm supposed to beleive some bogus website rather what I see is what in front of my face. Imust allow someone else to do the thinking for me, claiming to be scholarly, rather than objectively look at what is in my face.

That's why you will always mess up. Trust your own mind rather than some one elses b/c someone else may have an agenda which does not fit yours.

We can�t believe everything told to us by some organization with a subversive agenda. We can only read the Bible and listen to biblical scholars to find our answers. Similarly we can�t take the text out of context. We must examine the text in whole and how it relates to the overall idea of the passage. Yes Jeremiah was a prophet but not all of his teachings prophecies of things to come.

In Jeremiah 10 he is addressing the Israelites and condemning their actions. He was attempting to convince God�s people to turn away from their sins and return back to God and his word. This was a sermon given by Jeremiah to the Israelites. The passage starts out with �Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel. This is what the LORD says:�. He clearly speaking to the Israelites (The Lord says to you, O house of Israel). He is addressing the Israelites of that day, and in that day Idolatry was common amongst them. The use of Asherah poles was just one of the false idols being worshiped. As it says in Exodus 34 �Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.� We can see that Asherah was a pagan goddess, She was always represented as a tree or pole, sometimes beautifully carved, either planted or erected, then decorated with silver and gold, we can�t deny this it is a fact. It is exactly what is described in Jeremiah 10:3-4.

Further more, we are talking about Idolatry not Symbology. The worshiping of an object as it�s own God. Christians don�t worship the crucifix or Christmas tree as it�s own God, they are just symbols of our faith. However the Asherah poles were being used for Idolatry. So what makes more sense? That Jeremiah was talking about a crucifix or Christmas tree that wasn�t being worshiped as it�s own and separate God, or the Asherah poles that were common in the day and openly being used for Idolatry?

[Edited on 28-3-2004 by kinglizard]

KSoze

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 04:57 PM
link

xpose, if your a Christian then the only person you should emulate is the Messiah, right?; not Moses, not Mary
Asking Saints that are with God for help= Doesn't it say something about communicating with the dead; Mary is dead. I don't understand why a person would want to ask anyone else for help other than the almighty. I think he'd be the fastest way if you believe
Crucifixes and Xmas trees are not symbols of faith, they are symbols of man. I sure don't remember him saying "wear a cross in remembrance for me"

kinglizard

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 05:20 PM
link

Originally posted by KSoze
Crucifixes and Xmas trees are not symbols of faith, they are symbols of man. I sure don't remember him saying "wear a cross in remembrance for me"

Yes KSoze, the crucifix, cross, and the Christmas tree are symbols of the Christian Faith. When is the last time you were at a Buddhist, or Jewish home and saw a Christmas tree or a cross on the wall? They are solely objects of the Christian faith.

Leveller

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 05:22 PM
link

Believe it or not, I was in a Buddhist country just before last Christmas. I visited quite a few friend's houses.
All of them were Buddhist and all of them had Christmas trees!!!!

kinglizard

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 05:24 PM
link

Originally posted by Leveller
Believe it or not, I was in a Buddhist country just before last Christmas. I visited quite a few friend's houses.
All of them were Buddhist and all of them had Christmas trees!!!!

Weird!

What the heck were they celebrating?

kinglizard

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 05:26 PM
link

Just found something.

"Bodhi Day is the date we celebrate of Shakyamuni�s enlightenment under the Bodhi Tree."

So it's not a Christmas tree it's a Bodhi Tree.

www.manitobabuddhistchurch.org...

Leveller

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 05:27 PM
link

Christmas of course!!!
Even though it's not their religion, where-ever we went there were Christmas carols playing and decorations up.

They didn't treat it as a religious holiday as such. Just a time to take a day or two off work and hand out a few presents.

www.mysrilanka.com...

Illmatic67

posted on Mar, 28 2004 @ 05:28 PM
link

Originally posted by Leveller
Wether you think it outrageous or not, it is a simple fact.
Every Muslim has the ambition of making the pilgrimage to Mecca. It is a symbol of their devoutness.

Muslims have the same argument concerning the Black Stone as the Christians do their cross. But yet again, like it or not, it is a symbol.

Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "NO DOUBT, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE A STONE AND CAN NEITHER BENEFIT ANYONE NOR HARM ANYONE. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

But then why kiss it at all if it is not symbolic? I don't deny that the Muslims don't worship it, but to say it does not have a symbolic meaning is absolutely ludicrous.

You can't hold the same argument justifying your belief as you can with the one you use to condemn the Christians.

And though you deny worshipping angels, wasn't it Gabriel who gave the Prophet Mohammed the order that Muslims should only worship Allah? If you deny worshipping an angel, you certainly can't deny worshipping the angel's word.

So do me a favour. Take your fundamentalist argument elsewhere. I can see the paganism and the symbolism within Judasim and Christianity, just as you can. But I can also see it rooted deep in Islam. You refuse to look because you are blinded by your urgency to defame a competing religion.

Man, you have no idea what your saying.

The reason why Muslims make the pilgrammage to Mecca is because of the Ka'aba. The Ka'aba is the place of worship. It's the greatest mosque in the world. So when people make the pilgrammage to the Ka'aba they are praying in the greatest mosque of all, that it is. There's no secret meaning or conspiracy behind it.

It's like a Jew going to the Temple to pray or a Christian going to the church in Bethelem, that is all.

As far as the black stone, paperclip summed it up perfectly. Muslims don't bow down and talk to the blackstone and ask it for guidance and for good tidings.

Firstly, where did I say that the stone is worshipped? Read my post again and take it in. I stated that the stone is a symbol. Denial of this is denial of fact.

Secondly, I can't compare Islam and Christianity? You're joking right? Either that or you have absolutely no understanding of the evolution of the religions.
Both Christianity and Judaism are offshoots of Judaism which itself is a development of earlier concepts. Denial again, is denial of fact.

So before you act all high and mighty and knowlegable why don't you first read my post properly and secondly research the origins of religion?

WRONG.

Just because Islam agrees with the things in Judaism does not make it an offshoot.

Islam was the first religion on earth.

What religion do you think Adam and Enoch and all the other prophets were? They were all Muslims because they submitted before Allah as their true God.

Abraham was not a Jew... He was a Muslim.

You are very misinformed, take your anti-Islamic agenda somewhere else.