Do not worship the Cruxifix

How many times must it be said?

A symbol is a physical object that represents something other than itself. Symbology is the art of expression by symbols.

Idolatry is the worship of a physical object as a god.

If I worshiped the physical cross as if it was God it would be Idolatry.

Christians don�t worship the object, they worship God.

its not wrong.


"some christians"


can you be any more unsincere?


what in Gods earth are people so offended for? you cant even conversate anymore withou somebody using a hateful tone
all the time.



i think there is a true conspiracy to [disprove] jesus, there has
to be, because i never see more hate [in my life] then some of you people when
jesus name comes up. ever.



its ridiculous. I carry my rosary around sometimes to pray for sin, if you dont like it then deal with it.


you judge souls because they carry a reminder? would you care if they had a tatoo of 666? or do you care if they carry around a gun?



probably not. but since the cross is a moral reminder you care.



im sick of it.


christian who truly believe and have witnessed literal miracles of jesus, you should know this is foolish, so for goodness sakes don't listen to it.


nobody in here knows the mind of God like we think we do, but i believe prophets and miracles have bore his word.





peace

to the last guy.

amen.



you cant explain it enough.

peace

Some people �Deny Ignorance� but refuse to see the truth.

Truth, the only thing is ridiculous is you. There is a conspiracy to disprove Jesus and that is the Roman Catholic Church.

How many times must it be said?

A symbol is a physical object that represents something other than itself. Symbology is the art of expression by symbols.

Idolatry is the worship of a physical object as a god.

If I worshiped the physical cross as if it was God it would be Idolatry.

Christians don�t worship the object, they worship God.

I know Christians who pray to the crucifix. They aren't worshipping God, they are worshipping a peice of wood.

Symbology is all nice and cool in everything except religion.

A symbolic image of God is blasphemy. People kiss their crucifixes all the time, that is idoltary, not symbolic.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
I know Christians who pray to the crucifix. They aren't worshipping God, they are worshipping a peice of wood.

Then they arn't Christians.

Main Entry: Christian
Function: noun
1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ.


[Edited on 27-3-2004 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by kinglizard

I can only comment on the words that you have written. You wrote �If you have to have some visual representation to be able to worship your god, then you'd better spend some time actually reconsidering your spirituality.� You imply that without some type of object or idol we would be unable to worship God, unless I�m interpreting your post incorrectly.

You implied that people weren�t praying to God, rather the physical object.

No, what I said was that people were praying TO the object like it's some kind of telephone to god. People carry around the crucifix because they feel the need... they feel like they have a part of god with them at all times. It's not just about the physical appearance or visual enterpretation of these people... they also carry with them an attitude of self-rightiousness. They use the cross like a gun or pepper spray. They feel like the symbol they carry with them is the license to judge others to damnation (if you don't worship the god of the cross, you are going to hell!).

God is not carried in your pocket, on your keychain, or hanging from your car's mirror.

God is not hung on your wall or draped around your neck.

God is not red, green, blue, and yellow glass made into a mosaic.

God is not standing in front of you preaching gross misinterpretations of his own word.

God is not the clay tablets, stone tablets, parchment, or black book with the writing of man.

God is not inside you.

Spirituality is not defined by what trinket you hold belief to.

Spirituality is not how convinced you are that someone else is right.

Spirituality is not just 'believing'.

Spirituality is being able to connect with your energy to the spiritual world... the non-physical world... the world where all thoughts and ideas converge into one... where all knowledge exists, and all consciousness is a singularity.

oh, and... God Is. (if there is a god... the spiritual world may be what everyone believes to be god... in other words, god could be the convergence of every living thing's conscience).

Does that clear up what I was saying earlier? God isn't a phisical thing, and even by using a visual representation of what god is, it's still not true. Basically, any symbol or trinket that claims to be representational of God or Christ isn't, simply because God and Christ aren't physical entities. They have no form that can be put into a visual reference. Even using a physical object as a vessel to communicate spiritually is sacrilege.

The part of spirituality that breaks this is when you use crystal formations (salt, elements, metals, etc) to increase the spiritually fucused energy, but when this is done, it is not done as anything representational... it is simply a tool that acts a whole lot differently than the little manmade crosses and white Jesus' when connecting spiritually. Basically certain crystals, and combinations therof, act as a booster... like we are all made with 56K modems, but the crystals help you achieve 256K cable instead.

There are alot of people who use certain crosses in the same manner. The rosary was supposed to be used like a tool, but people are so stuck on the actual visual symbology that they don't realize the tools at their disposal are already in their hand. They try to envision god and put a physical form to him. Personally I think that by God sending Jesus to earth he really screwed up religion. When the 'son of god' had physical form, people lost alot of true spirituality... think about all the people who seriously think Christ is gonna return and look just like the white guy hanging on the cross in their living rooms.

then im ridiculous.




earthscum [whoever] thinks jesus will look like the whiteguy on their wall is being foolish.


i have these, and its a painting, i know its not jesus, but it reminds people of him.



oh well, sincerity cant win.



god bless

Earthscum,

I agree that the cross is used by some in an improper manner. In the eye of God everyone is equal. If a person uses the cross to elevate themselves above others or uses it to condemn his neighbor then that person is not a good Christian.

You say �God is not carried in your pocket, on your keychain, or hanging from your car's mirror. God is not hung on your wall or draped around your neck. God is not red, green, blue, and yellow glass made into a mosaic. God is not the clay tablets, stone tablets, parchment, or black book with the writing of man.�, then we agree. If someone thought that it would be considered Idolatry because Idolatry is the worship of a physical object as a god. If these objects are used as a reminder of ones faith then it can be a good thing.

The use of these things isn�t inherently evil or against the word of God. It all lies with the intent and belief of the individual.

You also say �Basically, any symbol or trinket that claims to be representational of God or Christ isn't, simply because God and Christ aren't physical entities.� No symbolic material object can represent God, but we can use them to show our faith and love to him.


[Edited on 27-3-2004 by kinglizard]

For an answer to all those who believe that the Catholic Church teaches idolatry simply because we have crucifixes or statues in our churches and our homes, then I must say you have never talked to a Catholic about this who knows his faith and what the Catholic Church teaches much better than your ministers do.

First off I think that the protestants or those who prefer to call themselves Christians but in actuality are still protestant because they protest something of the Catholic faith, have been misled by their ministers in this regard and I feel sorry for them.

If the ministers have misled you in this instance, then perhaps they have misled in many other areas as well. But to the case in point.

Anyone who has seen the Passion movie may get a little better understanding as to what I am going to relate here. If anyone watched that movie and didn't feel sorrow in his or her heart for the sins they have committed to bring about such suffering on the part of Our Lord to expiate for those sins then that man or woman cannot be alive.

This is precisely the reason Catholics have a crucifix instead of a cross like the protestants have. When the Catholic looks at that crucifix he is reminded of the sufferings that Christ went through to redeem us and to help stir within our hearts, minds, and souls a true sorrow for our sins. It is also to remind us of the enormous love which Christ had for us in enduring such punishment for each and every one of us.

After all doesnt St Paul teach us to repent and be sorry for our sins?
II Cor 7,10
"For the sorrow that is according to God worketh penance, steadfast unto salvation; but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

You also seem to think that the cross of Christ which hangs in Catholic Churches and I assure you in many Catholic homes is an afront to Almighty God because it somehow violates a commandment of God.

I know that protestants are taught that the second commandment of God refers to making of images of heaven above or earth beneath and the bowing down and worshiping of them.
I refer you to Exodus XX,4

"Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth."

You will never find a real Catholic who will ever acknowledge worshiping any image because that is indeed a violation of the commandment of God. However if you think that the displaying of a statue or a crucifix is a violation then I would refer you to Exodus XXV, 9-18

9 "According to all the likeness of the tabernacle which I will shew thee, and of all the vessels for the service thereof: and thus you shall make it"...
18 "Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle."
19 "Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other."

Here we find God Himself telling Moses to make statues of angels and display them. Would we accuse God of not knowing His own commandments that were given in Exodus XX?

So to Valhall who thinks that Catholics don't read the bible, I think it is the protestants who overlook many things in the bible to try to pave the road to heaven with gold instead of thorns.

Matt 7, 13
13 Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.
14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!
15 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in the clothing of sheep, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

And to intrepid who thinks that Catholics worship idols I would say, read the book of Exodus a little better.

"Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth."

9 "According to all the likeness of the tabernacle which I will shew thee, and of all the vessels for the service thereof: and thus you shall make it"...
18 "Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle."
19 "Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other."

This is the problem I have with all this... why would god tell people to not make graven images of anything physical, then turn around and tell people to make only what symbols IT wants us to display? Mmmhmm...

People put too much faith in the passed down and written word of man. I can tell you this much for sure: 5000-6000 years ago, god was a much different thing... peoples' perspective of god was totally different, and thus worship has changed significantly. The mass of the world is too materialistic to be spiritual. They can't make money off of spirituality, so they disregard it as nothing worth their time, and make a false spirituality just for church... the same false spirituality that that has brought about people like the Bakers, and other whacked-out evangelists who feed on and exploit the truly spiritual.

Exodus 20:1-6

The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.

God says �heaven above�, �earth beneath� and �waters below�, clearly he is referring to the physical world and not the heaven of God.


Exodus 25:8-9

"Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them. Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you."


The Israelites weren�t instructed by God to create statues for Idolatry. They were constructing a tabernacle or a tent sanctuary used by the Israelites during the Exodus this was a house of worship.




[Edited on 27-3-2004 by kinglizard]

Amazing. People will dismiss other objects of other religons as idol worship. They will come across wise and holier than thou while disobeying God's strict law on idols. And even with this verse, which SPECIFICALLY refers to the cross, they will completely ignore or lawyerly parse the meaning so as to continue to do what is wrong in God's eyes. Here is the verse and the bolded key passage in prophecy that implicitly tells you that this crucifix is WRONG.

Jeremiah 10

1 Hear what the LORD says to you, O house of Israel. 2 This is what the LORD says:

"Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the sky,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a melon patch,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good."

Can someone tell that Jeremiah is NOT talking about the crucifix here? Doubt it.

[Edited on 27-3-2004 by Colonel]

Originally posted by kinglizard
Exodus 20:1-6

The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.

God says �heaven above�, �earth beneath� and �waters below�, clearly he is referring to the physical world and not the heaven of God.


Exodus 25:8-9

"Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them. Make this tabernacle and all its furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you."


The Israelites weren�t instructed by God to create statues for Idolatry. They were constructing a tabernacle or a tent sanctuary used by the Israelites during the Exodus this was a house of worship.

Well, here's probably my last comment on this post: just because they didn't worship idols way back when doesn't mean that we don't worship them today. Obviously the meanings of the bible have been twisted throughout the ages. The cross (crucifix) was brought into use by the catholic church as the vessel of christ (in a sense). Christians aren't the Isrealites of Exodus.

Now, why I think I'm done with this thread:
1) According to God's words, he isn't the one and only god... but he would prefer it that way. A self-centered, self-righteous god. Is this the god you worship? God, the Dictator?
2) He apparently has no problem punishing a child for his/her great-great grandfather's sins... Lazy god... why didn't he just punish the sinner rather than someone who has done right all their life? What would that teach the person who sinned? Absolutly nothing... just teaches humanity how to be unfair and unjust... but then again, we were supposedly created in the likeness of god.
3) We are just pets, apparently. If god says it's so, it's so... or else! Why does/did god make people fearful of crossing him if he weren't a power-hungry entity? He doesn't say "obey me and your lives and world will be a better place" but rather "obey me or you will die".

This is not the god I would worship. This is why I only worship knowledge I have... knowing for myself rather than relying on another's interpretation. If there is a forgiving god, he would definitly forgive me for not worshipping him for reason of untrust of man. Right? Yeah, right... not from what I've read of the bible!

So, I'll leave you with this: If you want to be truly safe and free, do not worship anything. Do not pray to god, but rather do for yourself. Get rid of all your symbols and trinkets, and quit going to church. Just live by the laws of morals and karmas. When god throws his wrath upon the sinning inhabitants of earth you will know the true nature of god just by this: if he condemns you for not worshipping him, then you can feel better that you didn't live a life wasted on such an egocentrical entity. If he is truly understanding and forgives you, then you know you made a good and wise choice... especially if he conde3mns everyone else who followed the same religion you used to.

Or, god is dead and we are not worshipping anything, and you die knowing that you did the right thing.

win/win/win

"So, I'll leave you with this: If you want to be truly safe and free, do not worship anything. Do not pray to god,"

Right up until you die and then have to go before God and explain yourself. Ah, I'm not taking that chance.

everything KingLizard said is true. I do disagree with the Catholics and their saints and the worship of Mary the Mother of God though.

Ok, so it wasn't my last post on this thread...

So when I have to go explain myself to God, I tell him about all the times that I have been lied to and cheated by humans, and tell him flat out that since he had not shown himself to me in a way that I could discern that he was THE god, that I wouldn't fall for even more of man's possible lies... thus I only followed the rule of my own heart.

I wasn't worshipping any other god, right? So he has no room to be jealous. If he gets pissed because I didn't faithfully worship him, then I would probably accuse him of being Hitler's ghost!

God telling Moses to make a statue of angels is a difference case simply because God told him to.

If God tells you to do something you have to do it, no questions asked.

God told Abraham to kill his son and he went out to do it because God's authority is not to be questioned.

Now, if people make statues of God or any Godly figures simply out for his own security, that is blasphemy.

I don�t think there is anything wrong with Christians wearing a crucifix anymore than it is for Churches to put crosses on or inside their buildings. For Christians the cross represents Jesus' love, symbolizing his willingness to sacrifice his life for all of humanity.

I have never heard a Christian start a prayer out by saying �oh great and powerful crucifix.�

Originally posted by Illmatic67
People kill me when they say it's not idol worship, it's "symbolism"

Idiots, what do you think symbolism in religion is? IDOLTARY.

Islam has very STRICT rules against this. That is why you don't see any paintings of Muhammad or people praying to wooden thingd crafted by the hands of people.

Symbolism is a fancy way of idoltary.

In that case the whole of Islam is guilty of idolism.
What do you think Mecca is?
Whatever your denial - it is a symbol. There is no escaping that fact.

As for angels? The big three religions aren't exacty monotheistic. All three worship angels. When you look at this in the cold light of day, angels are another aspect of paganism where many gods were worshipped as a part of the one.