US pilot ordered to shoot down UFO over Norwich

yes I read this too. I live in Norwich and though this happened before I was born, there have been other sightings in Norwich, one in October 2006 and more on the beautiful north Norfolk coast, areas such as Mundesley (pronounced Munsly) and Cley (pronounced Cly). Can't wait to read these files that have been released. The truth is out there!
UFO girl.xxx

These MoD files are interesting. They do seem to hint at greater disclosure. We are seeing ufo related artices all year on MSM, and they are often now not accompanied by the X Files theme or silly cartoons of LGM.

I must say however thet this story is amazing except for one thing.

Surely they knew it was not earthly, or at least russian. Surely the aircraft is equiped with photography equipment?

Surely a photo of such a craft would be more important than shooting a pea shoote at something that was apparently of ernormous size.

So, why no photo. Or radar records?

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by StargateSG7

 

The rockets carried were 2.75 inch FFAR's, unguided rockets. Point the aircraft in the right direction, push the button, and hope for the best. Effective range was about 3,700 yards but accuracy was terrible.

According to the report the radar target was lost before the interceptor got within range and no rockets were launched.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by Phage]

Unlikely of F86D in 1957.

By the 1957 the Sabres were using Sidewinders. As I said before the first historical live combat use of the sidewinder missle was on F86 Sabres vs MIG15s over the straight of Taiwan against Chinese fighters in 1858. The Sabre was equipped with Sidewinders on active duty in 1957 in the RAAF.

So in this incident of the F86-D Sabre it would most likely have been as the OP suggested, sidewinders and the fact it was a 24 missile volley selected seems to confirm this.

Originally posted by bluestreak53
I wasn't disagreeing, just commenting. In the early 1950s, before USSR developed operational ICBM capability, the primary threat in North America were long range bombers loaded with atomic bombs. Even after ICBMs were developed and deplyed, I am quite sure that USSR and US maintained long range bomber fleets that could reach targets in US (so I assume they could reach UK as well). And I believe that some bombers are still basically venturing to the edges of US/Canadian/Russian air space to this day.

The date of this incident was 1958. The first Russian launches and tests of the ICBM system had already been done. This event is what prompted the UK to extend the R3 ROTOR radar system, over the coming years not only were many of the original Chain Line sites (Chain was the original ring radar early warning system built around the coast of the UK for the world war, decomissioned in the late forties early fifties) upgraded to R3 commands, we also built almost a thousand new underground radar complexes on the ROTOR system.

However, I understand your point about radar protection and UK was already setting up a fairly extensive radar network during the second world war and has a much smaller land mass. In north america, the US and Canada were busy through most of the 1950s, building the pine tree line and then the dew line as well as an extensive network the US built in the northern states and Alaska.

We always had very advanced radar, the first trully appplicable RADAR for this kind of deployment was invented by a Scottish scientist during this time, radar was well funded and highly specialised in the UK at that time. CHAIN (the world war versions) was based on the technology invented at that time, it was gradually taken offline post war leaving a more standard radar operating system in place. It was only when the ICBM threat became apparent that we fully rolled out the R3 ROTOR, which itself had been through R, R2, phases of tech before hand. R# was designed to be able to comfortably track missle bases targets in the air approaching UK, It was a very sensitive and adavanced radar system, far better than the Chain Line.

I am certainly surprised to read that the order to fire was issued without the interceptors having had a chance to visually identify the targets so this certainly appears to be a very exceptional level of response to an unknown threat (as others have already noted).

The order to fire was already ready to be given before the interceptors had engaged. This would be accounted for by the fact that during the land and requip with live fire the radar stations should have followed protocols which would require target confirmation, also the fact that they had been tracking the object over UK soil would have been a major incident.

You have to bear in mind for something to actually get over the mainland unseen was something UK Airforce and Military would have believed near impossible, so a bogey appearing over a city would have been a red alert situation, attempts to contact it would have been made, but assuming no contact, given it was deep within military airspace to an extent that no plane had ever been before, its very normal they would have ordered it shot down withiout hesitation. UK controlled the air absolutely at that time, there were few aircraft compared to today in the air so its not like they were going to be shooting down a civilian airliner. Any target appearing unnoticed over the mainland in those days would have put the UK on full response alert. Had it been smaller and coming into UK airspace at the time it would have been closed on and warned and then shot down, but its unlikely they would take any chances on a possible enemy target already above civilian areas. After the German bombings we were very used to shooting down targets without any hesitation once inside the mainland.

Of course, as the government and military tell us, "Don't worry, UFOs are of no threat to national defense, so we don't study them and aren't bothered by them in the least". (or similar words to the same effect)
They don't tell us that they have on many occasions risked starting a possible inter-planetary war by firing on unknown craft that many in the Air Force and Navy believed to originate from other planets.

Its unlikely the mainstream UK military or politics are involved if any cover up beyond "incidents" was going on. The UK political structure doesnt allow for the large scale coverup that could happen in the US. US politics is a quasi commercial heavily funded enterprise with huge potential for manipulation.

UK is very strict on the decrlaration of funding, who pays what and who is involved in what. Its not like the USA where major corporations fund politicians and presidential campaigns to the tune of billions behind the scenes. If a UK politician receives a box of chocolates it must be declared, if they spend money it must be declared, our lot cant even get away with paying a hotel room undeclared without it being all over the papers.

The mechnisms for subversion are very difficult in the UK government so its unlikely they could be involved in any high level secret society coverp. That doesnt mean the Queen, MI6 etc couldnt, just not mainstream government and military as the control over there is far tighter.

reply to post by StargateSG7


Yeah sorta like Iraqi Soldiers shooting down an ARMORED Gunship with rifles..lol

It can happen. Just takes a lucky hit.

THough I wouldn't have liked to have lived within 200km of the crash zone if he had brought it down.. the kind of engines & fuel that thing prolly used, might have made uite a bang when it hit the ground.

Originally posted by silver6ix


So in this incident of the F86-D Sabre it would most likely have been as the OP suggested, sidewinders and the fact it was a 24 missile volley selected seems to confirm this.

You believe a Saber could carry 24 AIM-9's? The F4 phantom could carry 4 (and 4 more sparrows).

Here is the "Mighty Mouse" rocket pod


Here is the F-86 carrying its maximum payload of 2 missiles.


Pilots speak of missiles (guided) and rockets (unguided).


[edit on 21-10-2008 by Phage]

[edit on 21-10-2008 by Phage]

reply to post by Phage


Ill concede the point, thanks for the information. Im not a military pilot and while I know somethings, I guess the payload size of sidewinders isnt one of them. My main point was that the Sabre was the first plane to use sidewinder missles.


Anyway, as it turns out it seems we were both wrong.

The 24 missle array would have been the SURA R80 Rockets which were loaded in 24 missles on the Sabre class.

So given the statement and the only missile I can find that the sabre was able to carry 24 of, it would I suggest indicate that these Sabres were equipped with SURA R80.

Anyway, in fairness the OP did state he suggested sidewinders not the pilot.

reply to post by silver6ix


No.
The USAF F-86 carried 24, 2.75 inch rockets. As shown in the photo above.

reply to post by silver6ix


Phage is correct. The USAF F-86D was equipped with an internal rack carrying 24 MK-4 "Mighty Mouse" unguided air-to-air rockets.

The interception radar (from Hughes Aircraft Co.) and associated fire-control computed the target's position, guided the aircraft on an intercept course to within 500 yards of the target, lowered the retractable tray of 24 rockets, and fired the rockets automatically. The effect of these weapons would have been devastating to an enemy bomber because each 2.75-inch Mighty Mouse folding fin aircraft rocket (FFAR) contained the power of a 75mm artillery shell.

The Australian-built F-86F variant, the CA-27, was armed with SURA R80 rockets according to Wikipedia.

Guys the CAC version of the Sabre was the latest evolution of the F86 Sabre, one of around 10 evolutions of the plane in its life, and it carried SURA R80 rockets.

Remeber that your F86 were flying out of UK airbases and were not neccessarily USAF planes, they may well have been British or commonwealth fighters used for training US Pilots.

At that time we were training US Pilots in dogfighting, something which happened regularly. For example again in the 80s US pilots were trained at RAF Leuchars in Tornados, the training was in advanced techniques and air to ground combat in which the UK have always specialised in. I know this for a fact because I lived directly opporiste two USAF pilots who were training in Leuchars at the time, my brother in law worked on the Tornado ground crews and I have actually been inside the base with him.

After the US training finished, the Italian airforce sent their pilots and were trained in the same fashion, again I lived next door to one of the Italian pilots who was training.

All of which was done using training planes provided by the UK airforce.

At that time its far more likely you were using the rockets which were used in European and commonwealth planes, the SURA R80 because you were based and armed in british bases most likely being trained by British Pilots using British equipment at the time.

Theres nothing unreasonable about it and despite what you might suggest theres no way you can be sure you are right, BOTH possibilities are pefectly reasonable.

Just to support further during 1956-1958 (the time of this incident) 302 RAF British Sabres were overhauled and modified in the UK and returned to the USAF for active use so theres every logical chance these planes at Manston were infact Sbares involved in the modfication and traing process at that time.

We dont have enough detail to know specifically but given the time frame and the facts id suggest its highly likely those were our planes and were being refitted by us before we sent them to you.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by silver6ix]

Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by Raud

 

Its not proof we are not alone...

Your confidence is based soley on faith thats all.

...and you, dear sir, seems to lack some. I feel sorry for you.
You don't know what I've experienced in my life. If you knew, you would think again before posting.

I had an old friend that was an Air Force pilot during the Vietnan war and later retired from NASA in Houston. One day, I was wearing an XFiles t-shirt and he came over and asked me if I believed in UFOs. I said yes because I saw one, the triangular shape one in Puerto Rico once when I was 13. He gave a smile and said that he saw 2 UFOs in Vietnam while a dog fight against vietnamese pilots.

The first time he was dropping heavy bombs over the jungles when 1 UFO appeared right in front of the plane. It was the classic dish shape UFO. He said that was in front of the plane for about 2 seconds when suddenly changed his course and got right to his left side... 3 seconds later was gone. He heard no sound but a saw a bright light before it dissapeared. I wonder what kind fo technology to create this effect.

During the same year he was in a dog fight when 2 UFOs intervene during the action and almos break his neck trying to locate them because he thought they were boggies from Russia. I guess he knew some classified information before his operation. He could not identify them because looked too bright. He tried to chase one of them
but it was impossible due to the high speed and altitude. He was told to report the incident and not to discuss it with anybody. He said that he felt like something was trying to suck his body when the UFO vanished the first time.

Before he left he told me: "If they are not a product from Russian technology, UFOs are real." And then he said: "Trust no one." ....smiled and left.

The last time I saw him he wanted me to continue searching. I guess he saw more UFOs but received no explanation.

What are these people thinking with?

The UFO showed no sign of aggression and we scramble to launch missiles at it. Judging from the reported speed of the UFO, it probably had enough firepower to annihilate any threat if it wanted. Obviously that was not on their list of "things to do".

Maybe we should try a different approach when greeting aliens and UFOs?

GUYS WAIT UP! WE GOT CAKE!!!!

reply to post by silver6ix


Why do you keep bringing the CA-27 up? The planes involved that night were F-86Ds of the USAF 514th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, on stand-by alert, stationed at Manston. This is stated by Major Torres in his account. Have you even read it?

reply to post by silver6ix


From Milton Torres' account on this source
www.ufocasebook.com...

Twenty four 2.75-inch unguided Folding Fin Aircraft Rockets (FFAR) were the sole armament of the F-86D. Dubbed 'Mighty Mouse', they weighed 18 pounds each and could be fired in salvos of 6, 12 or 24.

Another detail, yes. But the devil is in the details.

All I have done is say that the reported behaviour of the target is consistent with ECM activity. Two aircraft in the same flight, each directed by CGI to a different altitude. That the two aircraft were given different intercept vectors indicates there was more than one radar target. This in itself does indicate ECM activity but when taken with the vague description of the CGI contact it increases the possibility.

Torres recalls a CGI briefing on only one contact.

an unidentified flying object with very unusual flight patterns. In the initial briefing, it was suggested to us that the 'bogey' actually was motionless for long intervals.

A description which could be indicative of jamming.

Robertson's account says CGI reported multiple contacts over a wide area.

I specifically recall being advised that more than one GCI site and multiple 'unknowns' were involved and that the area extended into Scotland.

Information from the controller indicated the unknowns were changing speed and altitude quite frequently.

Again, this fits descriptions of the effects of jamming.


Now the pilots accounts of what they found with their own radar. One aircraft is able, in spite of ground clutter, to find an intermittent target at or below his altitude of 3,000 feet. The other, in the clouds at 32,000 feet gets a very strong target. We know Torres had to be close the the same altitude as the target because his targeting system was giving him a solution. There is no indication that this was the same target, in fact it seems unlikely due to the altitude discrepancy. An intermittent target is an effect of jamming. Though it seems contradictory, a very strong target is also an effect of jamming.

I don't know the actual capabilities of Soviet ECM's at the time but I do know that there was a TU-16 variant which was a dedicated ECM platform. You state that the Soviets were not capable of spoofing British radar. Where do you get that information? Do you know what the Soviet capabilities really were? There is also the fact that the Soviets were not the only ones developing ECM at the time. It doesn't really matter the source of the jamming, my point is that the descriptions of the radar targets are consistent with descriptions of the effects of ECM.

Unless an expert on the radar technology of the time can say otherwise, I don't think ECM can be ruled out as a possible explanation. Of course, neither can the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by Phage]

................

[edit on 21-10-2008 by spacebagel]

Originally posted by IAttackPeople
reply to post by silver6ix

 

Why do you keep bringing the CA-27 up? The planes involved that night were F-86Ds of the USAF 514th Fighter-Interceptor Squadron, on stand-by alert, stationed at Manston. This is stated by Major Torres in his account. Have you even read it?

Ive explained it but you dont seem to want to accept it.

You 514th left RAF Marston in 1958 and transferred to Germany. At that time they were flying F86 FE.

Between 1956-1958 The UK upgraded 302 CANADIAN built MKIV Sabres for the USAF in the UK (at Marston) and when the project was completed those planes were deisgnated F86 FE. (f86D to F86FE)

So if the pilots were in the 514th then they were flying our Sabres which were being upgraded from F86D MKIV Canadian built Sabres into the new F86 FE which was the classification given to them by the RAF.

So yes its very valid since those planes would have been equipped with out engines, our payloads and our specifications. NOT the standard USAF specs.



[edit on 21-10-2008 by silver6ix]

reply to post by Phage


Your source is probably doing the same as you, ASSUMING.

As I said before in my previous, the 514th were involved in the Sabre upgrade program and left Marston with the F86FE designation, that means those planes in 1957 were more lkely to be carrying our modifications and they were not standard USAF fighters, they were canadian MKIV Sabres upgraded by the RAF for you. 300 in total were modifed in Kent between 1956-1958.

The F86 FE was based on the AUSTRALIAN CAC modifications which was also known as the F86 F.

Again the point is moot it makes no difference what the missles or rockets were, but again you cannot prove what they were so why bother?

Again you have no conclusive proof that the weapons were mickey mouse thats an assumption made by the writer, the PILOT does not state, he only states that there were 24

Originally posted by silver6ix
reply to post by Phage

 

Your source is probably doing the same as you, ASSUMING.

As I said before in my previous, the 514th were involved in the Sabre upgrade program and left Marston with the F86FE designation, that means those planes in 1957 were more lkely to be carrying our modifications and they were not standard USAF fighters, they were canadian MKIV Sabres upgraded by the RAF for you. 300 in total were modifed in Kent between 1956-1958.

The F86 FE was based on the AUSTRALIAN CAC modifications which was also known as the F86 F.

Again the point is moot it makes no difference what the missles or rockets were, but again you cannot prove what they were so why bother?

Again you have no conclusive proof that the weapons were mickey mouse thats an assumption made by the writer, the PILOT does not state, he only states that there were 24

My source is Torres. The pilot involved. He and Roberson, the other pilot were with the 406th, flying North American F-86D's.

You really should read the account Torres and Robertson give in the source mentioned earlier.

[edit on 21-10-2008 by Phage]