War in Iraq, Practice for Urban American Warfare?

Is it possible another reason for the war in Iraq, was to provide great practice for US military to wage an urban war against the USA?

I don't mean to sound unpatriotic, laden in conspiracy-theory, and entirely ignorant of what led to the war in Iraq...but I thought it was worth asking.

Over the last five years, there has been a resurgence of Americans relocating to urban downtowns as condo construction increased and mortgages were being handed out to anybody and everybody. By encouraging more people to the urban core, would it not be easier to manage and contain?

[edit on 19-10-2008 by MOFreemason]

I going to have to go with a No on this one. I know this is a conspiracy site and all but, that one is just a bit too far fetched for my unimaginative brain.

If such training were needed, in my opinion, there are probably more efficient ways to go about it than starting an overseas war at an unimaginable cost.

Let's hope it never comes to that...

Regards,

[edit on 19-10-2008 by vonvitt]

If this actually is the case, then, according to some of the pro-gun posters on the 'Patriot' threads, it doesn't really matter. It seems no amount of experience, strategy nor superior fire power is going to be enough to take on the American populace. The American military is, apparently, wasting its time if this is the case.

If you think the Americans had a hard time in Baghdad alone, imagine American marines right smack in New York City.

They wouldn't have much success in New York City if they had bad intentions. Too many people, too many guns, high-rise buildings... sewers... Central Park...An insurgent's dream.

reply to post by MOFreemason

Thought the same thing. Does it really matter if planned or simply a most fortuitous outcome in that the troops are now all set for urban guerrilla warfare after having their skills honed under fire? Kinda' glad someone began this thread. I didn't want to be the one...

BTW... anybody doubting that US troops would fire on US citizens should pay close attention to the various civil disputes that crop up around the world. Those homeboys all shot their fellow citizens when ordered to do so. The "bad people" are not over there..... we are all the same.

Originally posted by KOGDOG
BTW... anybody doubting that US troops would fire on US citizens should pay close attention to the various civil disputes that crop up around the world. Those homeboys all shot their fellow citizens when ordered to do so. The "bad people" are not over there..... we are all the same.

Gotta love when people compare the US homeland to that of 3rd World countries...

Having been in Iraq and a few other places and been in quite a few firefights...I can honestly say the idea that we were there for "training" so we can turn on our own families and friends is a statement made by people with IQ's compared to stop signs. Will there be soldiers with the mentality of "do whatever is ordered"...sure...are they outnumbered 100 to 1...yeah...so for all you paranoid people...try and enjoy life alittle more...and spend less time worrying about something thats not going to happen.

I appreciate the comments so far on this thread.

As I mentioned in my initial post, I don't want to sound unAmerican by making this assertion, but really wanted to gain the insight of others.

One of the earlier posters mentioned NYC and Central Park as being an insurgents dream-come-true. This further inspired me to at least begin a thread like this.

Originally posted by rcwj75

Originally posted by KOGDOG
BTW... anybody doubting that US troops would fire on US citizens should pay close attention to the various civil disputes that crop up around the world. Those homeboys all shot their fellow citizens when ordered to do so. The "bad people" are not over there..... we are all the same.

Gotta love when people compare the US homeland to that of 3rd World countries...

Having been in Iraq and a few other places and been in quite a few firefights...I can honestly say the idea that we were there for "training" so we can turn on our own families and friends is a statement made by people with IQ's compared to stop signs. Will there be soldiers with the mentality of "do whatever is ordered"...sure...are they outnumbered 100 to 1...yeah...so for all you paranoid people...try and enjoy life alittle more...and spend less time worrying about something thats not going to happen.

I never said that I believed it to be a fact. What I did say is that it does come in mighty handy for the "thugs" who rule this nation to maintain "law & order" with "seasoned" troops. Apparently you are too young to remember Kent State or the civil rights movement.

Originally posted by star in a jar
If you think the Americans had a hard time in Baghdad alone, imagine American marines right smack in New York City.

They wouldn't have much success in New York City if they had bad intentions. Too many people, too many guns, high-rise buildings... sewers... Central Park...An insurgent's dream.

Generally, when US and UK forces having been fighting in the likes of Baghdad, they've been fighting with the eyes of the world watching with half that world ready to cry 'foul' if it can. America - and its allies - have been fighting those particular wars under massive restrictions and with their hands tied.

If it gets the point that the American government has turned on its people, those restraints will have come off long ago and what the rest of the world thinks won't really matter. The likes of China, Russia and the Middle East won't really care in this scenario and those who might care, such as the UK, will probably be complicit in a 'take-over and lock-down' scenario anyway so we won't be much help.

Again, as I've said before, this 'people's militia' ready to take on the government will come to nothing. A numbers game won't work in this century as the gap created between military and civilians through technology and training is very different than what it was 200 years ago. Muskets and rifles could take on some cannons if there were enough 'cannon fodder' then to absorb the damage during an assault. However, handguns and rifles against tanks, fighters, bombers and the various exotic weapons just waiting for use in military hangers? What, are planes going to fly low and slow just to give the handgun users a fighting chance? Maybe the tanks will let the rifle users get a couple of shots in first, to try and even it up?

That's if there is the numbers and people don't just hand over guns like they're told anyway.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


While I absolutely do not agree with militia groups wanting to wage war against our own government/military, it is kinda scary to know the citizenry has NOT A CHANCE to defend itself against a potentially oppressive government.

Originally posted by MOFreemason
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

While I absolutely do not agree with militia groups wanting to wage war against our own government/military, it is kinda scary to know the citizenry has NOT A CHANCE to defend itself against a potentially oppressive government.

I'm sure that you have heard of Woodward's 'Secret Weapon' in Iraq. Imagine what TPTB would unleash at home if they truly felt threatened...

Originally posted by MOFreemason
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

While I absolutely do not agree with militia groups wanting to wage war against our own government/military, it is kinda scary to know the citizenry has NOT A CHANCE to defend itself against a potentially oppressive government.

Well, isn't that the basis of the right to bear arms though? To be able to pitch-up against the government if necessary?

It's my honest belief that the 'right to bear arms' in this context is a scam. I think if the government really saw this as a realistic proposition, that the people could physically rise-up against the government, then that 'right' wouldn't be there. I see it in the same terms of voting, if we really had power in voting then we wouldn't be allowed to vote.

An urbanized area is the absolute last place you would want the population centralized in any conflict. Anyone out there who has ever kicked in doors and fought house to house will tell you that it is not our preferred method. Its a long, tedious, and extremely dangerous process.

We give up a lot by fighting in cities. We lose a large portion of fire superiority and have our maneuver choices extremely limited (unless we want to go all out and just turn it into rubble). Fighting in the city takes us closer to a fair fight than we want to be.

If we were planning on some kind of war on America (although this would be rather ideologically difficult) we would want to draw as many people out of the urban centers as possible, where they could be controlled more easily and we can use more of our resources.

Baghdad has a population of roughly 7 million people. Look how long it took to "stabilize" that city. New York metro has a population of 19 million. LA has 17 million. Chicago has 10 million. If the American people can be trusted enough to throw up a decent insurgency when they start getting pushed around, it would take generations to root out, if it ever was. We'd have to draft half the population to control the other half. We just don't have the resources.

reply to post by rcwj75


It's funny when people from 1st world countries automatically assume that people from 3rd world countries think as animals , or have no feelings nor ethics , or something of the sort.

They are just as human as you , and think remarkably if not completely , almost the same as you on many subjects.

Every military force is patriotc , and swears to protect its people. They all have families and friends in their countries. They are also there to "keep order" , meaning they protect the government too.

Still , they did it to their "own people" , they probably didn't shoot their own friends or families , but I don't think it would be too hard to do it to someone they are not related to , if they had a reason , even if they have been tricked to do it.

Don't kid yourself thinking that in America it would be much different , the government can fool the military for a long time , untill the military realises and actually overcomes its fears (yeah , going against orders can mean imprisonment or even death) , probably many would have died. And I don't mean to say this just to instill fear , but they would do it if they thinked it was the right thing to do.

You are watching too much TV.

Peace.

Originally posted by Roufas
You are watching too much TV.

Peace.

Unfortunatly your assumption is way off. Having spent years overseas while enlisted, then privatly contracted and seeing FIRST HAND what happens in 3rd world countires I CAN speak FACTS...can you? Probably not...just like most on ATS...many can assume, or base ideas off what they read, watch, or hear...but BEING THERE is a whole different story.

You don't understand the differences...and explaining it would require me to sit and type for an hour...so until you HAVE gone and seen/been where I have, don't expect your assumption and guessing on a topic to mean anything. Not trying to be mean to you, but people on this site have a tendancy to think they know, think they have the answers, etc...when as I stated before, most have never experianced anything in relation to warfare/communist leadership/civil war-unrest/unruly factions/and malitias on a crackhead leaders payroll.

So speaking from EXPERIANCE...you have VERY little to worry about round here.

I am brazilian , I have lived in my country for 23 years , and am and have been living in Spain for almost 2 years now.

Another assumption of yours that is wrong , I not only have seen but probably have lived there and experienced history there for more than many american have ever had (or not , who knows , I do know the US has always pulled some strings around there , we even had a president that was very anti-US politics that got "suicided"! nice right?)

I can assure you I can say everything I stated, at least about my country , and yes there have been coups throughout our history (few decades before I was born even) , although there haven´t been one in decades.

I was always led to believe that we would need one (done by the people of course) to end the corruption , or just plain out restart from zero there , because the corruption there is very pervasive. That is until I learned how our flawed world monetary system works...

The only real difference I have seen here and in my country so far is , it "seems" here the politicians aren't as corrupt as in Brazil , which ends up reflecting through other public benefits. The way people think , act and relate to each other are VERY similar though. Ethics and moral values too.

Yeah , so I can speak facts.


I didn´t mean to disregard your experiences , but I don´t think every other 3rd world country is inhuman because of what you saw on a few 3rd world countries , you might want to use different words the next time then , because generalization is always bad imho.

And I can't speak for Iraq as I only really met a single person from there , and he was just a common civilian , nice guy though.



[edit on 23-10-2008 by Roufas]

Did we attack Iraq for the USA or for Israel? Read these quotes before you decide. I got this from the Exclusive Intelligence Examiner Report
on www.texemarrs.com
---
"The war in Iraq was conceived by 25 neoconservatives, most of them Jewish, who are pushing President Bush to change the course of history."

Ari Shavit Ha’aretz News Service (Israel) April 5, 2003
---
"What is striking about Fox News Reporter Carl Cameron’s portrait of Israel’s spy network in the U.S. is the sheer vastness of his subject. The broad scope of the Israeli spy operation, with its many fronts and activities conducted coast to coast...In the months leading up to 9/11, Cameron claimed, Israel was waging a covert war against its principal ally and benefactor, the United States."

Justin Raimondo "The Terror Enigma: Israel and the September 11 Connection," Chronicles Intelligence Assessment, Aug. 2003
---
Deceiving, nation-wrecking...The way I discovered the neocons was by a careful reading of the speech Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX) gave the U.S. House of Representatives on July 10, 2003. Rep. Paul called his speech "Neo-Conned," by which I presume he means how the neocon hit squad is taking advantage of the American people by over-running any attempts to stop their rotten political steamroller."

Jim Moore Ether Zone July 17, 2003
---
"A new generation has its hands on the tiller of power...Jewish neocons have emerged as the Pentagon’s Paladins...Most striking is how unmentionable this is in the liberal press...These well-placed hawks are Jewish-Americans and it is their hardcore Zionism that is shaping American foreign policy. Zionism is fast becoming a poisoned chalice...There is real madness here, but who will stop it?"

Ann Pettifer Common Sense Dec. 18, 2002
---
"What do you know about Yossaf Bodansky? I admit I had never heard of him until he appeared on C-Span Washington Journal this morning. He is director of the Congressional Task force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare...It seems this Jew has had powerful influence on our government relative to the Middle East, and stayed in the background...I notice that many of the reports (on him) have links to Israel."

Biophilos, "An Israeli Heads This U.S. Defense Agency?," Aug. 3, 2003
---
It turns out that neocon U.S. Army General Tommy Franks, Centcom Commander and head of U.S. troops in the Iraqi war, is Jewish. Seen on MSNBC reviewing the troops in Baghdad, Franks shocked some by proudly giving the Communist clenched fist, outreached arms signal rather than the traditional U.S. military salute. At a press conference on March 25, 2003, General Franks stated, "The media is a weapon of war."

Conspiracyworld.com Sept. 1, 2003
---
The Bush "shock and awe" air campaign against Iraq was unleashed in March on the Jewish feast day of Purim, which commemorates the Jews’ slaughter of their dreaded enemy, Hamen, and his 70,000 followers, as recorded in the book of Esther. Jewish rabbis had publicly named Saddam their "Hamen of the Year for 2003." Even Saddam’s two sons, Quday and Usay, were isolated and slaughtered according to Jewish ritual. We can be sure that the all-seeing eye of the Jewish Illuminati carefully watches over the White House and President George W. Bush."

Texe Marrs Power of Prophecy broadcast Aug. 30, 2003
---
"Jews may adopt the customs and language of the countries where they live, but they will never become part of the native population."

The Jewish Courier Jan. 17, 1924
---
"[The Jewish neocons] are really a kind of Masonic secret society who preach one doctrine to the masses but maintain among their inner circles an esoteric doctrine that glorifies power, deception, and repression...Jewish identity also undoubtedly shapes neocon support for immigration (as a means of protecting against the emergence of anti-Jewish movements by diluting the Old Stock ethnic homogenity of
the United States).
-- Samuel Francis "The Real Cabal" Chronicles Sept. 2003

The U.S. military would not go to war in Iraq to learn how to fight American's in America, although they would obviously put into practice any lessons learned in the cities and towns of Iraq, adopted to local conditions, here in America. This would even extend to the interrogation tactics that they have learned to use in Iraq, and even Afghanistan, Guantanamo, and elsewhere since the War on Terror began in September, 2001.