Natural Selection and the Genetic Basis for Homosexuality

Originally posted by asmeone2
One theory that's been presented is that homosexuality is a natural safeguard against overpopulation. When a sort of critical mass is reached, the "Gay gene" if we can call it that, is triggered, thereby encouraging the population level to become more managible.

That is an interesting theory, because it seems like urban areas have a dramatically higher percent of gays than rural areas. That said I'd have to see some solid statistics on other animals as well before I could make a decision.

Been looking at this site for awhile, still haven't gotten around to registering yet. lazy. Anyway, saw this topic and I had to comment. I believe that there are people who are born gay and have no choice. I have gay relatives and have seen this first hand. I also believe that there are those who choose to partake in homosexual acts, but are not gay. The question of whether its right or wrong depends greatly on your own ethics and perceptions, and how you were raised. I don't believe it to be a defect. Your preference is hard-wired. I didn't "choose" to like women. Between 12 and 14 I started to "notice" them. Couldn't help it, it was natural. The sex fairy didn't appear and give me a choice. I'm sure it works the same for those that are born gay. I believe that not everybody was meant to breed, thats all. Thats not to say that gays don't have good genes, and that they don't produce good kids. They're switch is just turned off for some reason. Many things act as a cap to population, but homosexuality is so much in the minority that its effects aren't significant. Murder, war, disease (genetic, psychological or contracted) all control the population. Homosexuality is more of a deviance from the norm. I work in a lab, with machines that test blood samples. You run the same sample 3 times for the same test, say, gluecose levels. 3 different answers, all variable, but close. i think Homosexuality works the same way. Different answer, same sample. Slight variation. As to what causes this? I'd say pure random chance. There are billions of people, all contain an infathomable amount of chemical, hormanal, genetic, etc. information. You toss those dice around enough and they'll produce some variance. it dosn't make Darwinian sense that we are so self-destructive. Some people are born socio-paths. Stone cold killers. Not good for the survival of the species. You could argue that if all people were murderers, we'd go extinct. Murder may be a choice, but there are some genuinely crazy people out there, always have been, always will be. Goes back to those informational dice. Same sample, different answer. There should be no moral debate. Its not immoral to be left handed, shouldn't be immoral to be gay. But perception is key. Some perceive it to be an affront to their religeous ideals, some see it as an offense to their manhood, or womanhood. Now, the idea that this contributes to the erosion of the nuclear family. The definition of family is broad in the first place. Lets start simple. TV by itself causes probably the most damage. Couple that with parents that both work, and the heavy reliance on daycares or nannys. Alot of parents aren't the ones raising their kids. i'd say this is closer to normal, as it it virtually impossible for the average family (20-35000 per year) to get by on just one paycheck. Your poor to lower middle class, (and conceivably higher) who make up most of the population have to do this. Acceptance of Homosexuality didn't crush empires. Extreme violence, self-destruction (lead in the water? haha), shaky leadership, and pairity in the world. Not everyone reigns supreme forever. Eventually the others will catch up. I don't believe there is just one deciding factor, and science will struggle to explain it. I say that there is no real explination, but a combination of factors. Variance.

Originally posted by truthquest
That is an interesting theory, because it seems like urban areas have a dramatically higher percent of gays than rural areas.

That may be true, but I wonder if there aren't other social reasons behind it. In rural areas, there are less people in general and people tend to be more conservative (and anti-gay). There is less social support for people to come out than in cities.

For what it's worth, there have been several gay pairs of animals observed in zoos where populations should already be under tight control, and homosexuality was a major part of ancient Greek culture as well though I don't know if they ever really suffered from overpopulation issues In ancient Greece it was socially acceptable, which is why I really think it was so widespread there.

reply to post by Simplynoone


I just have to make a comment on your comparison of homosexuality and smoking. You said that you don't approve of homosexuality but you would still love them.

I have to point something out here.

Smoking causes physical damage to your body. I don't give a # who smokes but you could argue that it is actually a negative act because it causes damage to your body.

Homosexuality doesn't HURT anyone. And for you to say that you still love them even though you don't approve of homosexuality is fundamentally ignorant.

Because you are telling them that you don't approve of of WHO THEY ARE. It is like saying you don't approve of green eyes. That is what you need to understand.

I honestly don't have any animosity for you personally but I just really can't stand the free pass that religious people get on being ignorant and hateful, because no matter what you say, the idea that homosexuality is a morally negative state is being hateful.


[edit on 25-10-2008 by Jezus]

Originally posted by truthquest
That is an interesting theory, because it seems like urban areas have a dramatically higher percent of gays than rural areas

Higher percent would make plenty of sense since it's higher population

reply to post by Jezus



I dont approve or their lifestyle just like most of you dont approve of me CHOOSING to be a Christian .(which is my choice of lifestyle) ...

And yes homosexual sexual acts do cause physical illnesses ...stop saying it doesnt.Even heterosexuals get diseases from SEX >and you cannot tell me that there is not diseases that come from that kind of sex ......so yes sex can be just as bad as smoking ..(as far as illnesses go ) ......

And just because I do not approve of what they do ..does not equal I HATE THEM >....and that I am wishing nothing but bad and evil ...

I disagree that it is not a choice for them ....

When does disagreeing with someone mean I hate them ? Is that what you do ?Hate someone you disagree with ?


If I hated them I doubt very seriously I would be talking with any of them .
I do not talk to people I dislike .....in fact I will just avoid them as much as I possibly could ...

Even as a Christian ..the bible says for me to just wipe the dust off my feet ..why arent I doing that yet >? Because I do not believe they are all already lost and going to hell ..OBVIOUSLY if I believed that I would not even try to talk to them for any purpose ..


Anyway I am done with this thread ......yall have your minds made up that it is not by choice ..and I believe it is a choice ..so we have come to a standstill ..so I am walking away ..because now I am just considered a HATER ..and I am not ....so I wont continue with this thread anymore ..
I refuse to let you turn this into a bash with all your accusations ..which I find to be HATEFUL .....

Originally posted by Simplynoone
I dont approve or their lifestyle just like most of you dont approve of me CHOOSING to be a Christian .(which is my choice of lifestyle) ...

39 times a charm:

Homosexuality is not a choice. Homosexuality = orientation. Homosexuality does not = sex.

Having homosexual sex is a choice, just as a heterosexuals can refrain from sex, if they so choose. Homosexuals act on their natural orientation for the same reasons heterosexuals do. The feeling that is Right to do so, and the belief in the Freedom to do so.

Denying people the Right to do so is taking away their freedom, and therefore their right to live their life. Not approving of it, is having the position that you would rather them not live their lives. For one is not living their life if it's not in accordance to ones nature and free will.

Which is the reason I do not believe you when you said you would sacrifice yourself to save my life, since you would rather me not have my life to begin with

[edit on 25-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

reply to post by Simplynoone

I dont approve or their lifestyle just like most of you dont approve of me CHOOSING to be a Christian .(which is my choice of lifestyle)

We have been over this many times. It has been SHOWN that homosexuality is not a choice. It's clear cut.

... And yes homosexual sexual acts do cause physical illnesses ...stop saying it doesnt.Even heterosexuals get diseases from SEX

So does heterosexual acts. Sex carries the risk of diseases.

And just because I do not approve of what they do ..does not equal I HATE THEM

I know you don't.

Even as a Christian ..the bible says for me to just wipe the dust off my feet ..why arent I doing that yet

Did Jesus ever criticize homosexuals? I find it very interesting that generally Christians tend to ignore Jesus and listen to Paul more. They consider Paul's own homophobic opinion on homosexuality to be word of God.

Anyway I am done with this thread ......yall have your minds made up that it is not by choice ..and I believe it is a choice

It does not matter if our minds are made up or not. Facts are facts. It has been shown that homosexuality is not a choice over and over again.

so we have come to a standstill ..so I am walking away ..because now I am just considered a HATER ..and I am not ....so I wont continue with this

reply to post by Simplynoone


Again, I don't have any animosity for you personally but the reason you are getting this type of response is because your point of view is fundamentally hateful out of ignorance.

I don't mean that you are hateful but that your ignorance to the state of homosexuality (it being natural and not a choice) creates a hateful point of view. That who they ARE is wrong.


I'm not gay but I imagine a world where people felt that how I felt about woman was wrong. I am naturally attracted to a woman's shape, voice, demeanor, etc. and I could never have sex with a guy. It just couldn't physically happen for me. No matter how many people told me I was evil and wrong, and even if I was the only guy in the world that wanted to # woman I still wouldn't be able to change. Celibacy would be my best bet.

Imagine a world where the thing you wanted most was great and amazing and didn't hurt anyone, but everyone thought it was disgusting and evil...





[edit on 25-10-2008 by Jezus]

On the Roman Catholic Church teaching that homosexuality and lesbianism are "Inheriently Disordered", I am of the view that at this time we know so little about the nature of sexuality that we should not attempt to say what is ordered or disordered.

(Something like King Alfonso X's remarks when he learned how Astrological tables (the famous Alphonsine Tables) were calculated, that: "Had I been present when the universe was created, I would have sugested GOD use a simpler system.")

My theory is that nature creates some sexually noncompeting members of a species to sacrafice to to protect other members of similar genetics. A few individuals may die but the genes survive.

Military Homophobia: Military basic training induces a 'watch your back' survival attitude (commonly called Paranoia). In males one symptom of Paranoia is Homophobia. In females it is fear of being raped and forced into prostitution.
As survival stress rises, homophobia rises.

Complicating the matter is a thing I call "Pussy Galore Lesbianism" (after the character in Ian Flemming's "Goldfinger". It is not true lesbianism but rather an anti male reaction to being molested at an early age. (Similar things may happen in males, but female molesters are much rarer.)
The late Fr. Malachi Martin SJ, spoke of one convent that lost about half its nuns after a psychiatrist began interviewing the nuns to discover what had brought them to the convent. Fr. Martin regarded it as a tragedy, I think it was quite the oposite, for they no longer had to hide from what they had feared.

Nothing has been proven as fact ..nothing ..
I am not gonna play this game with you .

The entire topic of Homosexuality, Bisexuality, and Transgender is in my humbled opinion, a complete waste of time unless it is in an endeavor to defend someone's right to these; as well as that 'community' as a whole.
Questioning whether or not a person should have a right to be something other than how we approve of them to be is like questioning whether or not a woman should have the right to decide whether she will have an Abortion. Why are we interfering with this?
And also, I don't care. It's wrong. What matters, in my opinion, is resolving the ignorances and willful, intentional activities geared at disturbing the happiness and sovereignty, rightful sovereignty if need be, of these individuals.

The global development of consciousness of humanity is really a far more pressing relevant and virtuous issue that is very irritatingly getting almost no progress because there is no mass of concern toward it significant enough to stimulate the sheep out of their paralysis.

Why do people choose to be homosexual? Well... choice might have something to do with it. Just maybe, I could be wrong, but most people still exhibit some ability to produce this.
What reasons are there for them doing so? Currently, medical development is a bit in the dark ages as far as meaningful understanding from the scientific paradigm goes. This is more true of psychology and related chemical 'sciences' than the surgical field which is still producing forward conclusive progress.
Humanity's experience source is itself grounded in the hypnotic and therefore is itself there vulnerable within these same modalities. Altering suggestive consistencies alters the way in which a person will behave by and large. Yes, this is not always the case but this remains largely to the influence of the individual's overall exposure and saturation density within experience. It is entirely possible at any time to circumvent both consciousness and choice. In fact this happens very often.
Homosexuals actually tend to be of the latter spectrum, not yet mentioned, being more inclined to have awareness and consciousness in choice as well as development. Most also exhibit a certain greater inclination to hypersensitivity than the greater mass of humanity, this being again more so amongst women; possibly due to having higher emotional perception than men though likely there are vastly more dynamics than can be listed.
Most human beings are not capable, at this time, of utilizing their will and intentions with a truly oriented manner such as to exhibit their ultimate intentions. Hypersensitive people in general also exhibit a higher potential for the experience termed Love, though often in a very constrained and fragile form; again with women exhibiting higher potential than that of men. What this suggests is that as a general tendency, these individuals are not in fact a gene fluke but tapping into dormant and higher emotional potentials which is physically compatible to modern circumstances more typically consistent within the experiences accepted by and with homosexuals. Further, since the mind acts like a mirror, saturation from experience clouds the mirror. If the mirror cannot internally manifest a stability internally, then it will seek to do so through an identification with something related externally. Societies present today, globally and locally, demonstrate no significant meaningful nor hopeful progress within consciousness development which is more about heart and emotions than logics or structures. As such, more highly developed and hypersensitive individuals tend to gravitate toward what is most supportive of their development. As such, homosexuals - as this is the topic - gravitate toward that specific largely as a means of maintaining their needed propriety against saturation pollution which results in suffering and chaos within any consciouses if no internal stability can be reached. Reasons for this cannot be given due to character limits.

reply to post by Simplynoone


i dont see anyone here calling u a hater.. most of us are just stating that its not a choice.. ok so u dont aprove..and u say its a choice.. thats church dogma and is the basis for the hate on gays.. i never said u were a hater..

and i being gay didnt wake up one day and decide to be this way.. and that is fact

[edit on 25-10-2008 by scorand]

The thing I don’t get is how people call homosexuality a “defect” from a scientific stand point. Yeah we all have defects but I don’t see how homosexuality falls into this category. It is not a deficiency, it is not a flaw. Homosexuals love and live just like any straight human being, their differing sexual attraction does not restrict them from anything, with out bigotry or intolerance homosexuals would not be crippled in society in any way. Some argue it is a defect because homosexuals do not wish to mate with the opposite sex to reproduce, that doesn’t make much sense to me. I know homosexuals who have often slept with the opposite sex before they accepted themselves and some of them had children completely naturally. Their bodies are not defected, they work just as well as your or mine, they simply usually don’t desire to procreate the way straight couples do. Which is okay too, because their sexuality does not inhibit their nature to nurture, and often they end up nurturing children straight people do not wish to raise.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Nothing has been proven as fact ..nothing ..
I am not gonna play this game with you .

The exact same can be said for The Bible. So I guess we are all guilty of the same game.

But this is not a game. People are suffering.

Originally posted by asmeone2
One theory that's been presented is that homosexuality is a natural safeguard against overpopulation. When a sort of critical mass is reached, the "Gay gene" if we can call it that, is triggered, thereby encouraging the population level to become more managible.

wow ive never thought of that.. very interesting point. Personally I always thought it had something to do with some sort of mental illness (no offense intended by this)

I just always thought sexual oritentation and urges had something to do with pro-creation and basic instinct to have a family.

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
The thing I don’t get is how people call homosexuality a “defect” from a scientific stand point. Yeah we all have defects but I don’t see how homosexuality falls into this category. It is not a deficiency, it is not a flaw. Homosexuals love and live just like any straight human being, their differing sexual attraction does not restrict them from anything, with out bigotry or intolerance homosexuals would not be crippled in society in any way. Some argue it is a defect because homosexuals do not wish to mate with the opposite sex to reproduce, that doesn’t make much sense to me. I know homosexuals who have often slept with the opposite sex before they accepted themselves and some of them had children completely naturally. Their bodies are not defected, they work just as well as your or mine, they simply usually don’t desire to procreate the way straight couples do. Which is okay too, because their sexuality does not inhibit their nature to nurture, and often they end up nurturing children straight people do not wish to raise.

I thought ppl used the term defect as in mental not physical, and I think "they" often nurture children that "straight" people dont want more so out of lack of choice. I mean obviously a gay man can have kids but there's no way it's as easy unless there's lying involved.. that's just honestly what I always thought lol

I do hear what you are saying though.. I have a 40 year old gay Cousin who has children of his own from a first marriage, he is an absolutely wonderful father so speaking from personal experience I dont see that gay people I know are any different from straight people except of course for sexual orientiation..

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Nothing has been proven as fact ..nothing ..
I am not gonna play this game with you .

The exact same can be said for The Bible. So I guess we are all guilty of the same game.

But this is not a game. People are suffering.

it's always a game to someone.. I believe it's a matter of perception. I think our biggest problem as a race is the fact that no one is on the same page with one another, lack of understanding and defense mechanisms due to our upbringing in society really inhibits growth of consciousness.

Why is it that people all want to sit there and look for some kind of justification for why there are homosexuals? Put the shoe on the other foot.

Homosexuals have existed forever. Why can't we just live and let live instead of look for a way to justify why this thing many are so afraid of because they don't understand why it is among us?

Just deal with it. It's here, it's always been, and it's not going away. It's not a disease, there is no cure. Homosexuals are no better or worse than heterosexuals. It's no one else's business.

I am left handed and right brained. I typically have a different perspective on things than a right handed left brained individual, but so what? Why am I not treated like a homosexual for being different?

Soon as you throw the word sex, or gender in the picture, people get all freaked out and you have these topics. People are so insecure with what's between their legs it's ridiculous.

People are people. We are all different. We all have our own perceptions and justifications for our own existence. We are all born what we are for the most part and can't change it, nor would we.

I think from what I have seen that Homosexuals have gone through enough of this "under a microscope" crap.

Maybe Homosexuality is Natures way of population control or some other function, but we are just along for the ride and will NEVER know the justification regardless of what doctor wants to attempt to take a stab at it.

One thing is for certain. They are just as justified in nature as anyone else, or they would not exist.

There you go! Scientists have recently found a significant link to a gene!
NOW WHAT?

Australian researchers have identified a significant link between a gene involved in testosterone action and male transsexualism.

news.bbc.co.uk...

There is a social stigma that transsexualism is simply a lifestyle choice, however our findings support a biological basis of how gender identity develops
Professor Vincent Harley, researcher

[edit on 26-10-2008 by Deaf Alien]