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Natural Selection and the Genetic Basis for Homosexuality

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posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 06:24 PM

Originally posted by Simplynoone
First off I think yall need to quit associating human behaviour with animal behaviour ..they are not the same ..We were made a little above the animals

Actually that is exactly what I was not doing.

Saying sex is strictly for reproductive purposes is equating it to animal behavior.

If you want to say human sexuality is not animal behavior then you have to explain why. Which I have.

Human sexuality is human behavior. It is human behavior because it is different then animal behavior. Animal sexuality is *generally* strictly for reproduction. Human sexuality is not.

[edit on 22-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 06:28 PM
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

I was talking to those who keep saying that there are gay animals so it must be natural ...
I can bet you that these supposed gay animals will hump anything that moves ..just like every single dog I have ever met who has humped my leg,my coat,my stuffed animals,the corner of my chair ...etc

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 06:30 PM
reply to post by Simplynoone

this is true to a point, however the point that was being made is the fact that this does occour in nature.. and we are a part of nature..the aspect of homosexuality is just another fascett, its part of the natural order.. and to try to say thats not possible is false.. if thats the case then this whole universe is impossible.. there are checks and balances thruout.. while we may be a step up from animals. we are still a part of nature..

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 06:31 PM
Overpopulation IS NOT natural. If there is no balance, then many things will happen such as spread of disease and loss of resources. So homosexuality is nature's response to overpopulation. So it is natural.

From wiki

Some problems associated with or exacerbated by human overpopulation:
* Inadequate fresh water for drinking water use as well as sewage treatment and effluent discharge. Some countries, like Saudi Arabia, use energy-expensive desalination to solve the problem of water shortages.
* Depletion of natural resources, especially fossil fuels
* Increased levels of air pollution, water pollution, soil contamination and noise pollution. Once a country has industrialized and become wealthy, a combination of government regulation and technological innovation causes pollution to decline substantially, even as the population continues to grow.
* Deforestation and loss of ecosystems that sustain global atmospheric oxygen and carbon dioxide balance; about eight million hectares of forest are lost each year.
* Changes in atmospheric composition and consequent global warming
* Irreversible loss of arable land and increases in desertification. Deforestation and desertification can be reversed by adopting property rights, and this policy is successful even while the human population continues to grow.
* Mass species extinctions. from reduced habitat in tropical forests due to slash-and-burn techniques that sometimes are practiced by shifting cultivators, especially in countries with rapidly expanding rural populations; present extinction rates may be as high as 140,000 species lost per year. The IUCN Red List lists a total of 698 animal species having gone extinct during recorded human history.
* High infant and child mortality. High rates of infant mortality are caused by poverty. Rich countries with high population densities have low rates of infant mortality.
* Increased chance of the emergence of new epidemics and pandemics For many environmental and social reasons, including overcrowded living conditions, malnutrition and inadequate, inaccessible, or non-existent health care, the poor are more likely to be exposed to infectious diseases.
* Starvation, malnutrition or poor diet with ill health and diet-deficiency diseases (e.g. rickets). Famine is aggravated by poverty. Rich countries with high population densities do not have famine.
* Poverty coupled with inflation in some regions and a resulting low level of capital formation. Poverty and inflation are aggravated by bad government and bad economic policies. Many countries with high population densities have eliminated absolute poverty and keep their inflation rates very low.
* Low life expectancy in countries with fastest growing populations
* Unhygienic living conditions for many based upon water resource depletion, discharge of raw sewage and solid waste disposal
* Elevated crime rate due to drug cartels and increased theft by people stealing resources to survive
* Conflict over scarce resources and crowding, leading to increased levels of warfare

Wiki Link

So be thankful for homosexuality.

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 06:36 PM
reply to post by Simplynoone

ahh.. but to an extent it is true.. i have had two male dogs that wanted nothing to do with female dogs.. didnt hump legs or anything else. but other male dogs..oh boy did they try.. i still say that homosexuality is as natural as being straight..

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 06:38 PM
reply to post by Simplynoone

Depends on the animal. Some animals have been proven to show sentience. Certain primates, elephants, dolphins,... crows?... if they ever have homosexual sex then it could be argued that they are aware of their sexuality and have 'reasons' for doing it. I don't know.

Homosexuality does exist in the Animal Kingdom.

Again I am also trying to distinguish human behavior from animal behavior. Again because human sexuality transcends thinking strictly biology.

The point to bringing animals up is not to show how similar homosexual humans are to them, it's to add to the counter-argument of homosexuality being not natural i.e produced by nature.

It is. Nature produces homosexual humans and nature produces homosexual animals as well (or is it bisexual animals

Which is something to consider if ones key argument is that homosexuality is caused by a broken 'nuclear family unit', lack of father figure, lack of Church, etc.

[edit on 22-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 06:40 PM
reply to post by Simplynoone

I have seen big male dogs trying to mount each other. And no they didn't try to hump anything that moves. Homosexuality in animals have been extensively documented.

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 07:02 PM
I would also like to add that Christians imho are very much against the idea of accepting that homosexuality is natural i.e produced by nature, because God controls Nature. Which ultimately means if homosexuality is natural then that would mean God created homosexuals. Which of course opens a whole host of further questions (which are not covered in The Bible).

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 07:34 PM
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy

Thats because many people,not just Christians,see the un-natural as being imperfect,and therefore God couldn't possibly of created something that is imperfect.

Yet,almost as if by design,thats what all humans are.
We all fall short of God's ideal,yet,in our imperfections,we are not all treated equally.

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 08:18 PM

Originally posted by Simplynoone
they are programmed to instinctively have sex ..they dont even care who with ..they will hump your leg ..they will hump a stuffed animal etc etc ...

Well, yeah .. but that describes human males fairly well too, so .. what's your point?

Seriously, back on topic:

We started out asking if homosexuality could be determined not to be genetic (hereditary) because, since homosexuality leads to non-reproduction, it would have been weeded out of the gene pool by natural selection.

I think we have made several stabs at the fact that homosexuality is not genetic in the conventional sense, like blue eyes or red hair. If it were, it would show up according to a predictable mathematical formula like other genetic traits do (it doesn't), and it probably would have been eliminated by natural selection.

However, the word "genetic" has been expanded to encompass disorders that are not strictly hereditary but are genetic in the sense that they are caused by mutations or defects of certain genes (chromosomes). It is possible that homosexuality fits into this category, but if it does we have not yet isolated the responsible gene.

The larger question is: Is homosexuality physiological (biological) or psychological? And, if it is psychological, is it by choice? I think we may further simplify the CRITICAL component of the question by asking: Is homosexuality voluntary or involuntary? In other words, does a person choose their sexual orientation like they choose their political affiliation, or is it more like having a high IQ or being bipolar - they can't help it?

Perhaps we can begin making progress towards answering the real question if we consider pros and cons for the question: Is homosexuality involuntary? and try to reach a consensus. Here are a few that I've seen in this thread, please add to the list and give reasons WHY when doing so.

Pro: No one would choose homosexuality because of the discrimination, bigotry, shame, embarrassment, and harassment that comes with that choice.
Pro: Many (most?) homosexuals "knew" they were different in early childhood, long before they understood anything about sexuality to make that kind of a choice.
Pro: Homosexuals have earnestly and honestly tried to be(come) heterosexual, and they can't.
Pro: Children raised by a homosexual couple are no more likely to be homosexual than children raised by a heterosexual couple. If it were a choice, the opposite should be true because the children would emulate their parents.
Con: If homosexuality were involuntary, the Christian God would not condemn it.
Con: Homosexuality can't be involuntary because it is unnatural and harmful to society and/or the species of humanity as a whole.

Do you think that these are valid points? If not, why not? What other points can you think of, pro or con, and provide support for their validity.

[edit on 22-10-2008 by Heike]

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 08:46 PM
This is off all the different topics going on at the moment,lol,but i think many will be interested,and disturbed,by the content in this thread.

So back on topic,kinda....Good post Heike

[edit on 22-10-2008 by jakyll]

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 10:43 PM

First off I think yall need to quit associating human behaviour with animal behaviour ..they are not the same ..We were made a little above the animals and below the angels ...certainly yall know you cannot compare animal instinct with human instinct .....they do not know what right and wrong is .they do not have conciences and they do not do things for the reasons we do .......

Humans ARE animals. Humans are just like any other species on earth, we are born, we live, and after a few years we die. The only difference is our brains, which still don’t stop a lot of humans from acting like the animals we are supposed to be above.

The concept of right, and wrong is something that humans made up.

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 10:52 PM
reply to post by AlexG141989

we are born, we live, and after a few years we die.

The same could be said for bacteria, no?

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 11:01 PM
reply to post by jakyll

Thats not true least this Christian knows that things are not perfect ....there are deformaties of all kinds in humans in moutains ..rivers animals .....I dont believe it was that way from the beginning .and yes the way we live eat stress ..everything plays a role in why things are not perfect ... ..even nature is not perfect ...look at Alaska is beautiful and peaceful and pretty can get ugly and wild and dangerous just that quick ..........

Heike I gave you a star.. very nice summation ..way to get us back on topic too.

So does anyone have a link to any of these studies about homosexual animals ? legitimate studies please ...

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 11:04 PM
reply to post by Simplynoone

There is a lot of legitimate studies on that. They have been posted many times in many threads on ATS.

If we don't consider it derailing of the thread then I will try and find some good material to post.

In the mean time I am sure others will find some.

Also, please understand that you cite The Bible as absolute authority of Truth. Since many of us don't believe that, you should be fair when you ask us for "legitimate studies"

[edit on 22-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 11:09 PM
Alex ...I think there are some real differences in animals and humans .Their heart soul and mind are different than ours ..Do you have any studies to prove that they are the same ? >>lol you would have to be a mind reader I guess to come up with that or know doggy talk so you could ask them .

Do you really think that life has no purpose like being an animal ..just to live to die ? I would be interested in knowing why you think that life has such little purpose ....You know I have been through alot and I can tell you we are not here just for our own selves has to do with all of us ...and everything that happens is for a reason life showed me that as I look back is a real experience and even though it was horribly tough for me I learned to really appreciate it ...

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 11:11 PM
Ok Lucid I can be fair ...I would read whatever you came up with ..with an open mind I promise ok ...just try to keep it as much of an unbiased link as possible like you would ask of me if I showed you a link ...fair enough >?

posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 11:24 PM
reply to post by Simplynoone

I think I have a decent idea as to what people find credible as far as studies go, so I will do my best

posted on Oct, 23 2008 @ 03:47 AM
Why can't people just leave gay people alone?? I mean, seriously, what business is it of yours anyhow?? Live and let live....seriously? Is it that big an issue??? Is it fear?? What is it that drives people to want to bash (verbally or otherwise), other peoples lifestyles and choices when they aren't doing any harm to you??? Why? Seriously? You don't consider that bad??? I think THAT is evil in it's purest, simplest form.

posted on Oct, 23 2008 @ 04:02 AM
reply to post by Bizmark35

I agree.

One of the big culprits behind this aggressive hostility is the fact that many believe in the myth that is the radical homosexual agenda. The belief that the gay community is trying to convert heterosexuals into gaydom... not even children are spared!!!
This in my opinion is just projection from the religious since they themselves try and convert people.

Now to get back on topic.

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