Natural Selection and the Genetic Basis for Homosexuality

reply to post by Good Wolf


It's produced by nature.

Therefore it is natural.

Originally posted by MrAndy
Since humans of the same sex cannot reproduce together, it is unnatural, in that way, as a homosexual, something is "broke". You are not wired correctly.

So if it's 'unnatural' only in so far as they can't reproduce. Then how does your broken wiring theory rationalize bisexuals? They are half broken?

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Let's not forget the barren women or sterile men. Is it unnatural for them to have sex?

Morally it's not very clear-cut is it? Or it is clear-cut but 'why' is very debatable.

It's all very good to say it's wrong and be harsh about homosexuality but when you know a gay person, you know one quite well, then it's harder to outwardly say the same thing. But I'm positive that the religious (in general), no matter how tolerant, will never drop the negative stance on it.

Many religious institutions have set up homosexual "curing" camps, a topic which has been heavily criticised here on ATS.

[edit on 10/22/2008 by Good Wolf]

[edit on 10/22/2008 by Good Wolf]

It is unnatural. It's as unnatural as domesticating wild animals, selective breeding, GM etc etc. But it's not inherently 'wrong' or immoral as so many people would argue. That's why homosexual persecution is unjustified.

Homosexual sex is about as unnatural as heterosexual sex, when the heterosexual couple is not planning to procreate...

I guess you can say it's unnatural, but only because it isn't the norm. But in nature, homosexuality is completely natural. It is seen not only in humans, but all over the animal kingdom. I guess I'm saying, how can a natural universe produce something unnatural???

reply to post by AlexG141989


Even the most unlikely things are natural, if they are caused by nature. 'Natural' does not mean, and has never meant, 'that which is common'.

I just wanted to clear that up.

Homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality. A hole-in-one is as natural as a 15-shot bunker-and-rough tour.

reply to post by AlexG141989


I said that, and I continue to say that because it gets in the way life trying to continue itself. Unnatural not because it didn't come from that which is natural (which I think is what you though I meant) but rather it gets in the way of the natural.

I mean, if the definition of natural is "that which came from nature", and unnatural is "that which did not come from nature" then in the end everything is natural, ether directly or indirectly. I don't agree with that.

Think of this in the context of Natural Selection. That which gets in the way or otherwise is in someway a hindrance gets breed out. And if that can't happen, extinction starts occur.


That's the way I look at what is and is not natural.

reply to post by dave420

Even the most unlikely things are natural, if they are caused by nature. 'Natural' does not mean, and has never meant, 'that which is common'.

Good observation.
Many people either forget this or don't even know it at all.

reply to post by Good Wolf


But homosexuality doesn't get in the way of natural selection, at least not for humans. We are social creatures. The aptitude of our genome is determined by nature and the actions of the society that harbours it. Gay people play a great part in that, and without them, society as we know it wouldn't exist. Humans are about a lot more than procreation. The 'family unit' is not a closed system. Gay people adopt kids that otherwise would be more likely to have a crappy life, and give them a chance at having a good family. Those kids are no more predisposed to homosexuality than anyone else, and chances are they will grow up and pass on their genes. Not to mention every other aspect of beneficial human lives separate from our sexuality that we all have to offer (intelligence, empathy, charity, knowledge, etc.)

Homosexuality is only 'bad' for natural selection if humans lived solitary lives, which is simply not the case.

reply to post by dave420


But evolution and nature in general doesn't work on that kind of level. I mean you dont see adoption in nature (apart from freak accidents of circumstance).

But ifyou really dont like my statement, fine Ill change it. 'unnatural' to 'not normal'.


It seems we can't work out what kind of role "the natural" has in todays humanity.

reply to post by Simplynoone


neither do gays.. however u'r implying that a gay couple is like marring u'r kids .. dont be daft.. sex in a relationship is an expression of the love between two grown adults.. and despite the retoric spewed.. its just as natural ... oh and one more thing.. the physcilogical abuse comes in when sociaity condems and trys to make gays feel bad about how they are when they didnt choose this.. anymore than u chose to be straight..

reply to post by Good Wolf


We *are* nature, so yes, the most widespread single species the world has ever known works on that level, making it 100% natural. Not to mention in other highly-social creatures, such as other apes, elephants, dolphins, heck - even ants (remember that most ants don't reproduce, yet ants would not be as effective or successful if those non-reproducing ants were not there. Their strength requires a non-reproducing portion of society, in their case well over 99%).

I hate to do it, but yeah - saying 'natural' to mean what you did is nothing but confusing Especially in a thread where we have to choose our words carefully, I think such ambiguity will only serve to hurt the discussion.

reply to post by scorand



I was not implying that at all ...what I was getting at is sex is not necessary just to show someone you love them ..There is such a thing as spiritual love you know ...and it cannot be shown through a physical act ....in fact as I have said before I DO NOT CONSIDER sex to be something you really need anyway except to have babies .(Please read my whole post to better understand what I am getting at ok)

I do have another question though ..
Is it the emotional love that your attracted to in the same sex or the physical one ?
In other words ..does another man or woman understand you better and you can relate more with them ? Or is it the sexual part that attracts you the most to the same sexes ?

reply to post by Simplynoone


I think I can save a bunch of time here:

Simplynoone, when you ask these questions, also ask them to yourself, as statistically speaking you will feel the same way about those you love as anyone else. Somewhere out there there is a gay person who will answer exactly the same as you would, for every question you ask. We are all the same. Gay folks don't get a 'Congratulations on being gay!' book when they come out, starting with 'Now that you are officially gay, stop thinking like a straight person, and go to the nearest <insert clichéd gay hangout place here> and get your freak on'. Gay love = straight love.

Also remember no-one here speaks for the gay community, or the gay community. We can only offer our opinions, and speak personally.

THIS QUESTION IS STRICTLY For the Homosexuals who BELIEVE IN GOD and the BIBLE >
I would really like to know how some of you who say they are Christian and believe in the bible ...explain these verses ? I am only posting this to see what you believe these verses are talking about in YOUR OPINION and how you interpret it .....I am also posting the whole thing so you can see it in context ..

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Pssst hey Dave I have one for you and all of you Scientific minded ones ..
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are CLEARLY SEEN, being UNDERSTOOD by the things that are MADE, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

reply to post by dave420


Do you want me to research or not Dave ? This is researching for the truth according to the SOURCE is it not >? ...The source is each and ever person who lives that lifestyle ....Would you rather I go and read every ANTI homosexual opinion out there getting all biased opinions or would you rather I ask them directly ?

I was raised in Alaska on an ISLAND NO TV ..no CHURCH ..NO BIBLE ..NO RADIO >..no HUMAN interactions .(other than my family members and a few fishermen etc ) ..I was not ever INDOCTRINATED to be against ANYONE ..in fact I didnt even know anything like this even existed ..until I got out here in the real world .So For your INFO >.I have no info ..and in order to form an opinion I need more info to go by dont I >.....And I am IGNORANT on the whole subject and do not LIKE BEING IN THE DARK about any subject ...
So back off Dave PLEASE .stop showing your as biased as those who you claim are biased ..

Dave this is important to me why cant you see that ?
I really love people ALL PEOPLE ..I find people to be fascinating and the more different they are the more fascinating they are to me .
We are all in this life together arnt we ?If you believe that too then please dont shut me out .

reply to post by Simplynoone


Technically, you'd need to perform a survey, not just ask one person questions. By your logic, all gay people are on ATS and participating in this thread. Clearly you can see that's not the case

Why are you being so harsh with me? I'm simply trying to illustrate something to you that you have clearly not realised: that gay people are just the same as everyone else. They have the same drives, the same desires, the same fears, the same everything as straight folks. Once you accept that, there are no other questions.

I'm not saying you are a hate-filled person, or that you don't like gay people, or that you are a lousy cook or anything else - I'm simply trying to help you. I want you to be the person you can be, that's all.

reply to post by Simplynoone


With all due respect, that bible passage (Romans 1:20), like so much of the bible, makes no sense. I don't have an opinion I'm trying to read in the text, so I can't make head nor tail of it.

reply to post by Simplynoone


i appologize.. i misread u'r intent.. from what i had read up to that point thats how i kinda took it..