My UK Friends, Freedom Not Fear

reply to post by expatwhite


The reason this is a bad thing is not simply for this specific event/rule/law etc. This represents the latest in a tide of infringments upon the rights and privacies of us civillians. Again, if you watch Taking Liberties, you will see just HOW much our rights have een curtailed. And bearing those in mind (if you choose to watch the documentary), consider the following:

1 - The IRA were a constant threat to the UK public during the Troubles. Were our rights curtailed to ridiculous standards because of a very real threat on the streets? Compare the amount of attacks performed by the IRA, now compare it to Al Qaeda. What? 1 attack in the UK? Surely if this organisation is SUCH a threat to the very fabric of our society, we would be under more constant attack, rather than one highly questionable terrorist attack (The man alleged to have masterminded it is widely believed to be a Six asset), and a bunch of angry wahhabist idiot clerics spouting hate in a mosque? But if the IRA was more of a threat, then why suddenly now, with less of a threat, is there the need for more paranoia, more hate stirrring between communities, more mental bombardment of fear?

2 - What is happening now is directly comparable, barring differences due to technological scope, to what happened in Germany and Italy pre World War Two. Our American frinds are well into the advance stages of having their liberties kicked out from underneath them. Regardless of your views on who did what on 9/11, assume, just for arguments sake, that it is as we have been saying, a false flag operation. The torching of the Reichstag Building in Germany was a false flag, as is widely known, and Hitler used it to focus the people, lost in a misguided, and easily manipulatable rage, against certain communities and political ideologies. So let's look at 9/11. It was a false flag, and look, Americans were manipulated into believing there was a global threat to be dealt with. And as with Hitler, while the people were busy being angry at Joe Outcast, they couldn't see their rights being stripped away. In Britain, it is exactly the same. While Corporate Media tells us Joe Muslim is out there packing an AK and waiting to behead us, we are finding we are having to let the government into every aspect of our lives. They even want to know about our TRASH for crying out loud.

So, again, its not just this one thing that is bad. It is a series of events and a good historical perspective that allows us to see what is happening. As any libertarian will tell you, big government is a bad thing, as what happens if the government gets it wrong? What if said government is, heaven forbid, corrupt? Can we trust that government to be fair with its access all areas powers? What if we start to question that government, its action, its motives? We may find that because we let them tap our phone lines so freely, we cannot speak and show others what is going wrong with our country, lest we get detained as a 'political prisoner'/'terrorist'. And if they get their wish, and put the Net under tight control, it will get even harder for true democracy to function.

reply to post by Terran Blue



Hi Terran

Again a well thought out response
Still have to disagree though

With regards to your first point, there is no point comparing the IRA to the threat of Muslim extremism as they are completely different. One was a struggle for independance and unity of a nation, the other is for the complete control of the world. The IRA wanted the brits out of Ireland, the muslim extremists will not be satisfied untill the whole world is under islamic law. One was a struggle for freedom one is a struggle to take freedom away

And again to keep on subject, it has NOTHING to do with the governments request to provide an address when buying a PAYG phone? You cannot compare a threat that practically ended 10 years ago with a threat now for the simple reason that technology has moved forward massively. In the 60/70/80s when the IRA were arguably at the most prominent there was NO internet and NO mobile phone communication for them to use. If there had been then i strongly suspect the Government would also have brought in these measures. I could reverse the arguement and say the age of mobile communication brought about the end of the IRA struggle as they realised they could be monitored anywhere and anytime without the need for MI6 putting undercover operators at risk?

With regards to erosion of civil rights - The dustbin issue is a joke and im with you on that, but this is something that DOESNT affect me or you (i hope!) or 99.9% of the population in any way shape or form? Look, im sure almost everyone realises that for years, every mobile phone communication can be monitored. If anyone in authority wants to monitor your calls they can. This is my whole point, the horse has already bolted! Your phone calls are probably already listened to and ignored as they have no need to care what time your home for tea. However, if they are listening and hear someone say they want to blow up the no 9 bus then im sure you agree that its important they know who that was? We cannot change the fact that they can listen in-im not happy about it myself but its unlikely that could be changed now. And if they are already listening, you are NOT losing any more civil liberty by registering your address when you buy a phone. You already have to do it with contract mobile phones, no one has complained about that - so why are PAYG phones different?

Out of all the issues in the country at the moment, then to me, this is one of the most trivial. I understand people complaining about CCTv etc but having to register a PAYG phone in the same way you would a contract phone just doesnt bother me one iota, i dont see the fuss.

As for the reichstag, i understand your point but i dont think its relevant to today. Im sorry, if they burnt down parliament, who the hell would care? Most of the people wouldnt know anyway as they dont read the news, watch the news or socialise in any way other than sitting in the front room playing xbox live or wii. i sometimes think to make the masses aware of anything important in this country you either have to do a storyline on eastenders about it or broadcast it through fifa 09 or Halo online gaming. Or maybe the PTB could interupt their phone calls ordering take away pizza to tell them

reply to post by expatwhite


I thought the terrorists we are at war with are fighting to remove US and its allies out of the ME.....complete control of the world? What TV Channel told you that?

Originally posted by muddyhoop
reply to post by expatwhite

 

I thought the terrorists we are at war with are fighting to remove US and its allies out of the ME.....complete control of the world? What TV Channel told you that?

Why the silly sarcastic comment "what tv channel told you that"

And if you are denying that Muslim extremeists want the world under Islamic law, which is the point i actually made, then i suggest you get your head out of your arse and join the rest of us in reality.

now shoo if you cant contribute to the OP about phones

[edit on 23-10-2008 by expatwhite]

I should get my head out of my arse?..hahaaa.

You say they want to control the world...that is your opinion, not everyone's.

My opinion is that the powers that be want to control the world.

All these taking away of our freedom is helping them to do just that. You won't listen to talk of ID cards and so on but myself and other posters on here believe it to all tie in.

That is why I asked you to just listen to the videos...but you won't. Yes I don't know you but maybe if you did listen to these speakers you may find a different outlook on the subject?

Just give it a try, whats the harm?

All I ask and others here is for you to try and look at the big picture. I agree it seems no harm in asking for ID for pay as you go phones. However when you take a step back with a little more knowledge about all the other things and how it could be abused in the future....

Originally posted by expatwhite
......... if they burnt down parliament, who the hell would care? Most of the people wouldnt know anyway as they dont read the news, watch the news or socialise in any way other than sitting in the front room playing xbox live or wii. i sometimes think to make the masses aware of anything important in this country you either have to do a storyline on eastenders about it or broadcast it through fifa 09 or Halo online gaming. Or maybe the PTB could interupt their phone calls ordering take away pizza to tell them

I hate 'I agree' posts but couldn't resist it here.
Absolutely bang on!
Have tried to express the same sentiment many a time but not quite as effectively!
People too busy watching X-Factor, Coronation Street or Jeremy, (what an arrogant twat) Kyle to pop their head out into the real world, have a look at what's going on and try to formulate an independant opinion on anything!

Edit too add g at the end of 'watching', dislike text speak but unfortunately.....?


[edit on 23/10/08 by Freeborn]

Originally posted by muddyhoop
I should get my head out of my arse?..hahaaa.

You say they want to control the world...that is your opinion, not everyone's.

My opinion is that the powers that be want to control the world.

All these taking away of our freedom is helping them to do just that. You won't listen to talk of ID cards and so on but myself and other posters on here believe it to all tie in.

That is why I asked you to just listen to the videos...but you won't. Yes I don't know you but maybe if you did listen to these speakers you may find a different outlook on the subject?

Just give it a try, whats the harm?

All I ask and others here is for you to try and look at the big picture. I agree it seems no harm in asking for ID for pay as you go phones. However when you take a step back with a little more knowledge about all the other things and how it could be abused in the future....

Erm, thats THEIR opinion and i have seen it repeatedly stated. So its not my opinion at all, its their stated aim-worldwide rule by islamic law. The PTB, if they even exist, are obviously against this, hence the ramping up of tensions in the so called war on terror. I may be wrong, but im sure its even mentioned in the quaran that they must convert ALL non believers?

And i did watch the videos. You mention ID cards, yet once again i will restate the simple fact that i lived for 4 years in a country where i had to carry ID. Not one problem with that, not one. Face facts, 99% of the people in the UK who complain about ID cards have NEVER experienced this. So who is the better informed, me who has been through it or the people complaining over issues they have NEVER experienced and are oftem mis-informed about?

To you it might seem just one more step, but i will ask for the 3rd or 4th time, give me ONE reason why you shouldnt provide proof of address when you buy a PAYG phone? i keep asking yet no one seems able to provide an answer without saying watch this video, or its part of a bigger plan, or in your words "how it could be abused in future"

So heres you chance to convert me, answer the question. How is it bad and how could it be abused in future ????

Over to you

reply to post by expatwhite


Expatwhite, my apologies for the lack of structure to my reply....I have had a few beers on the beach today. lol

Ok a few ideas....

All motor cars must be registered by their owners. Does that stop cars being used as getaway vehicles in robberies?

People will have to carry their passports more...so passports will be easier to steal...so identity theft will increase...so terrorists will be able to use false identities more...

Mobile phone licensing is the next big move. Personal Computers too. It is all about taxing us more and controlling all of us.

CRIMINALS DON'T OBEY LAWS! That's why they're called ...... Oh, never mind.

Whatever happened to "If we lose our freedoms, the terrorists have won"?

If technology is the answer to terrorism, how is it that the US - the society with the best technology on the planet - can't find Bin Laden ? Bin Laden knows (as terrorists/criminals tend to) what techniques/technologies the "good guys" use and plans his actions accordingly.

What about the elderly of our Great Nation. No passport, no driving liscence?

The computing power of mobile phones grows every day, smart phones will be able to incorporate scrambling software similar to that in landline based scramblers which encrypt and decrypt conversations.

Do you have to register a gun?....do criminals register guns??

With CCTV being used to prosecute "serious crime" such as litter dropping (stealth Tax), where will this latest piece of State snooping lead?

Roaming SIMs from countries which don't require any registration (ie, most of them) are the easy way round it. Also, if networks are forced to disconnect all the prepay customers who refuse to register, they'll go bust.

All the data will be for sale on a website within weeks of the system going live , and thousands will be harassed by abusive partners who can trace them through the system?

What if I want to use my phone to take a photo in a public place? This used to be completely legal too, but now people are getting abused and arrested by UK police for this.

A cunning ruse, so more people have to spend the money to buy a passport? Government taxation by the back door again!

Next step will be Goverbment to say "You're right, asking for passports is such an intrusion. Now, ID cards will make this process so much simpler".

i.e. it's the old - request something outrageous, wait for the outrage, back off a little, gets accepted gratefully.


Shouldn't the UK invest first in how to keep the existing confidential data safe than rather invest in more ways to get private/confidential? The list of cases where sensible data is lost or misplaced is already embarrassing!

Having a passport has controlled international crime and terrorism so well we can now use this document to control the purchase of a mobile.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin, 1759 "Those who give up their Liberty(Freedom) for security deserve neither"
Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. ~Abraham Lincoln

Easy to circumvent. When this fails to work as an effective tracking device/deterrent , then "chipping" will be the more attractive option?

So everyone who sells a mobile phone ... like teenage lads who work on Saturdays in their local Carphone Warehouse .. will have to be security screened too as they'll have to have access to the database?

An employee at Orange (or such) forgets to log your data. Your line is disconnected, and when you call Orange customer services, they think you stole the phone!

A logistical nightmare making existing pay as you go customers provide identification.I cannot see the mobile networks consenting to the manpower involved in achieving this without an inflated financial compensation package attached to it - at our expense of course!

MORE.....

Criminals will still be able to get phones that can't be traced to them by using fraudulent identification details, potentially creating a new trade in pre-registered SIM cards. Meanwhile, those who do not have a passport or driving licence will be denied something they may need.

Our government is going to throw more millions of our money into a scheme which criminals will easily be able to circumvent by simply stealing a phone. Kids are already being mugged for phones - this is going to make it worse because they're the softest target.

Making them harder but not impossible to own will not stop terrorism or crime. It will just annoy a huge number of law-abiding people.



[edit on 23-10-2008 by muddyhoop]

Pay as go criminals will just use mobile phones bought elsewhere in the world. Is this level of surveillance worth it?? Monitor 60m to find less than 100...bad science.

Since 911 how many suspected terrorists have been detained?

How many of these have been charged?

[edit on 23-10-2008 by muddyhoop]

What about small business...Ebay sellers. Will you send somebody on Ebay your passport details? Many small companies could be put out of business by this.

I buy a mobile phone and am asked to present my passport; a month later, the phone gets stolen/lost; that same phone is then used days later in a terrorist act unbeknown to me; will I then get detained for 28 days?

Many people (poor) have a pay as you go for the purpose of incoming calls only. Now they will need to find the money to buy a passport to get the phone (a phone they may need for a job).

....how much is a passport these days?

Innocent until proven guilty, not guilty till proven innocent! Gov. have no such right to impose regulations of this kind in what is supposedly a free society.

Whats next? Oh yes internet!!!! Whats next...oh yes RFID chip implants!!!!

Before I have had mobiles for Birthday and Xmas presents. How will they stop somebody from buying phones and selling them on?

What happened to a Government listening to the wishes of its people?

"lf you are law abiding citizen you have nothing to fear" ...Tell that to the Nazis' victims. By spying on everyone the assumption that you are innocent till proven guilty is gone.

Many countries, especially in Central Europe, South America and South Africa, are adopting laws to remedy privacy violations that occurred under previous authoritarian regimes.

In the old Soviet Union every typewriter had to be registered with the KGB, with samples of letters so that any anti-government documents could be tracked down to their source.

All the government needs to do these days is attach the label 'anti-terrorism' to any law it fancies....pretty soon we will be arrestable for anything, all in the name of safeguarding the country....The terrorists have won, we walk in fear,

Everyone, we can stop this from happening. A simple thing you can all do right now, is to sign this petition and pass it on to as many people as you can.


Sign here

Originally posted by expatwhite
reply to post by Terran Blue

 

Hi Terran

Again a well thought out response

Still have to disagree though

With regards to your first point, there is no point comparing the IRA to the threat of Muslim extremism as they are completely different. One was a struggle for independence and unity of a nation, the other is for the complete control of the world. The IRA wanted the brits out of Ireland, the muslim extremists will not be satisfied untill the whole world is under islamic law. One was a struggle for freedom one is a struggle to take freedom away

This sort of US (NWO) propaganda regurgitation is the fuel that the NWO elite just love so that they direct Government policy to further control us. The only aggressor that has in the past and still continues to create ‘Global Terrorism’ is the US/UK but they are the military arm of the NWO as was/is USSR, China, India, Pakistan, NATO, UN etc etc…………….. How can some one of eloquence be so naive? (do you ever look at events and see what’s going on in this worlds? Muslim extremists really? Next thing you’ll be telling me we have a ‘Free Press’?

NWO mission of dumbing down almost complete I see!

Until recently, when it came to the question of government surveillance many of us had the attitude that if we have done nothing wrong then we have nothing to fear.

But a series of newspaper headlines revealing that the government has lost huge swathes of our personal data - from 25 million child benefits records here, to a few million drivers' details there - has got many of us wondering if, actually, there is quite a lot to fear.

BBC News

Originally posted by mlmijyd

Originally posted by expatwhite
reply to post by Terran Blue

 

Hi Terran

Again a well thought out response

Still have to disagree though

With regards to your first point, there is no point comparing the IRA to the threat of Muslim extremism as they are completely different. One was a struggle for independence and unity of a nation, the other is for the complete control of the world. The IRA wanted the brits out of Ireland, the muslim extremists will not be satisfied untill the whole world is under islamic law. One was a struggle for freedom one is a struggle to take freedom away

This sort of US (NWO) propaganda regurgitation is the fuel that the NWO elite just love so that they direct Government policy to further control us. The only aggressor that has in the past and still continues to create ‘Global Terrorism’ is the US/UK but they are the military arm of the NWO as was/is USSR, China, India, Pakistan, NATO, UN etc etc…………….. How can some one of eloquence be so naive? (do you ever look at events and see what’s going on in this worlds? Muslim extremists really? Next thing you’ll be telling me we have a ‘Free Press’?

NWO mission of dumbing down almost complete I see!

I give up. If you are seriously denying that Radical muslim extremeists want the return of the caliphate and a WHOLE WORLD under islamic rule then i just cant help you. You need to wake up yourself instead of blaming everything on some "NWO" which no one can prove actually exists as an entity I found your comments about dumbing down offensive to be honest, especially coming from some who apparently believes Russia/china/US/Uk are the military arm of this alleged "NWO" Tell me, if they are ALL under the control of this NWO why isnt it in power yet? They seem to control 99% of the whole planets military might yet STILL cant get waht the want, whatever that is.

The world is secretely run by goblins and elves and they control the entire worlds supply of oxyygen, they are just waiting in the wings to take over. Makes as much sense as your hypothesis does

reply to post by muddyhoop



Hi Muddyhoop - a long thought out reply, kudos

However, i still dispute your points raised.

Firstly, you mentioned cars being registered but criminals still using them in robberies. Yes, criminals will do that - BUT as they are registered, if someone bumps your car and drives off and someone sees it and notes the vehicle registration number, the car car be traced to its owner and you can take steps to recover your costs for repairs. The police can also investigate as to whether a crime has been committed, ie leaving the scene of an accident. Now, im sure you will agree, this happens a LOT and im sure you wouldnt class these people normally as criminals? Surely you cannot possibly be advocating that cars are not registered? Its because they are registered that most of them are legal, ie tax, insurance and MOT.

With regards to Osama in a cave not being found-its been reported many times that he distrusts technology and sends messages out in person just so they cannot be intercepted. You could use your own arguement to prove my point, if he DID have a payg phone then we could have found him by now

My point is nothing to do with carrying passports around on a daily basis. Its simply about proving your ID when buying a PAYG phone? anything else is just window dressing round the issue. People have always had to prove ID when getting a contract phone. You say carphone warehouse staff will have access to the information etc, but they already have if your on contract-again, whats the difference?

I may have missed it, but i didnt see your explanation as to why getting a PAYG phone is any different? Its nothing to do with pensioners, people losing passports, etc etc etc, thats all window dressing to obfuscate the point. In a simple paragraph, please explain to me why its different getting a PAYG to getting a contract phone.

reply to post by muddyhoop

yes thats what I said
they can stole a phone everywhere they want
But we must show our Id....LOL
In this crazy world where we all live is more easy to live for them than for us.
Thats really bad!!!