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This is for all the `ufo skeptics` must read

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posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:02 AM
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reply to post by silver6ix
 


We are not asking for proof than we and only we will agree with. But evidence that will make the world believe and not just those of us in the ufo community. Something that say without a shadow of a doubt, that aliens are here.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by riggs2099]




posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by silver6ix
I think the point he is making is that nobody runs around questioning the rationality of religious belief and demanding proof of life every two seconds.


Personally, I think that would be a bit odd in a forum dedicated to UFO and Extraterrestrial life. But, if you want to start a thread about it, go right ahead. I'm sure it will be oodles of fun.


Originally posted by silver6ix
Your constant, incessant demands for proof are painted in a very thin veil of rationality which when torn asunder reveals little more than glaring hypocrisy.


Would you care to tell us what that hypocricy is?

Why are you suddenly attacking demands for proof? Every UFO researcher, whether they be a skeptic or believer, demands proof and will acknowledge Sagan's Law in one way or another.

You are attacking demands for proof because you do not want to debate this on the merits of the proof. Rather, you want people to accept your beliefs wholesale and blind without question.


Originally posted by silver6ix
So this mythical "proof" some people so constantly demand is nothing more than a reinforcement of an illusional world in which they live. Truth? Seriously, you cant handle the truth (i love that live)


When trying to make a lame attacking on someone's intelligence, you might want to be sure your spelling is correct.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by SaviorComplex
 


Because the proof you demand is not proof at all, it is just another lie which appeases your beliefs.

NASA telling you tomorrow that little green men are here would be "proof" for you. In reality, it would just be an illusion you chose to accept.

Your proof depends on the credibility you choose to give it. And skeptics give only credibility where the fabric of lies permits there to be credibility.

So what proof would you then demand? What is it that sets you apart here? Your proof is the proof many believers already have, the only difference is the credibility in your mind and theirs. Theirin lies the hypocrisy, you chaste that which you espouse.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:14 AM
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Originally posted by riggs2099
We are not asking for proof than we and only we will agree with. But evidence that will make the world believe and not just those of us in the ufo community. Something that say without a shadow of a doubt, that aliens are here.


Exactly. We want proof that is incontrovertible. We want proof that is not open to interpretation.

Now, the UFO fundamentalists, those that think attacking skeptics is a substitute to proof, those who want everyone to accept their viewpoint without question, you can call us closed-minded and the like. However, there is not a single skeptic on here who does not come to these forums every single day, seeing posts such as "VIDEO PROOF OF ALIENS!" and doesn't hope that this will finally be the proof we have all been waiting for.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by SaviorComplex


Exactly. We want proof that is incontrovertible. We want proof that is not open to interpretation.


Untrue. If that were true you would not believe Uranus exists for im sure you have never seen it.

Again, you define your "proof" in the credibility of people you chose so blindly to believe.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by silver6ix
NASA telling you tomorrow that little green men are here would be "proof" for you.


Yes, because that would be, as Riggs and I both define, incontrovertible, undeniable proof. If NASA came out tomorrow and said aliens were here, I would have to admit, "Hey, awesome...I'm wrong."


Originally posted by silver6ix
Your proof is the proof many believers already have


They do not have proof. They have evidence. And that evidence is neither undeniable, conclusive, or incontrovertible. We disagree on the interpretation of the evidence.


Originally posted by silver6ix
the only difference is the credibility in your mind and theirs. Theirin lies the hypocrisy, you chaste that which you espouse.


If all that matters is the credibility we place on an individual, why does that make me a hypocrite and not you? To you, a person is credible if they are telling you what you want to hear.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:22 AM
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Originally posted by silver6ix
Again, you define your "proof" in the credibility of people you chose so blindly to believe.


It is exactly the way believers believe. Thanks for helping the skeptics out.


[edit on 24-10-2008 by riggs2099]



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by silver6ix
Untrue. If that were true you would not believe Uranus exists for im sure you have never seen it.


Actually, I have.

And I've seen UFOs too, by the by.


Originally posted by silver6ix
Again, you define your "proof" in the credibility of people you chose so blindly to believe.


You have the audacity to call me a hypocrite, yet you are doing the exact same thing you accuse me of. You blindly believe anyone who is willing to tell you what you want to hear about UFOs.

Why do you and NoRichardRun want to attack me? I am not your enemy. I only disagree with your interpretation of the evidence. I am not standing in the way of anyone proving the existence of extraterrestrial visitation. Attacking me, or any other skeptic, does not prove, nor is a substitute for proving, the existence of extraterrestrial visitation.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by SaviorComplex

Originally posted by silver6ix
NASA telling you tomorrow that little green men are here would be "proof" for you.


Yes, because that would be, as Riggs and I both define, incontrovertible, undeniable proof. If NASA came out tomorrow and said aliens were here, I would have to admit, "Hey, awesome...I'm wrong."


So as I said. Hypocrisy. Your truth is defined by the credibility you attach to someone else telling you its true. That isnt proof of anything except gullibility my friend.



They do not have proof. They have evidence. And that evidence is neither undeniable, conclusive, or incontrovertible. We disagree on the interpretation of the evidence.


Wrong they have the same proof as anyone else. They, in many cases, choose to take someones word for it. They give that person credibility as you do to NASA and their proof is as valid as yours.

It is not different than those who give credibility to the words of the Pope and those who do not, it is not proof it is a choice to believe in a lack of proof.



If all that matters is the credibility we place on an individual, why does that make me a hypocrite and not you? To you, a person is credible if they are telling you what you want to hear.


To me, no person i the definition of proof. Not even if god appeared before my eyes would I take his word on reality. If god was all knowing, he would have known that before appearing.

Which is precisely why I do not believe and I do not disbelieve. I am open to all possibilities because ALL have an equal (this is where theory comes in) chance of being the truth.

I certainly dont take the word of known liars in our esteemed leaders as proof of anything at all. If NASA tell me the sky is blue, ill go outside and check for myself before accepting it.

The difference is clear, you believe in fiction, I only believe in fact and possiblity.


[edit on 24-10-2008 by silver6ix]

[edit on 24-10-2008 by silver6ix]



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:38 AM
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reply to post by silver6ix
 


The main problem with believers is this; they pick and choose when to believe what someone says. They will BELIEVE that the government is telling the truth when they say these crafts are not thiers and have no clue as to what they are..but will turn around and NOT BELIEVE them when they say they don't know what they are. So they believe when it is goes along with when they believe but will not believe them when it goes against thier beliefs. Why is it more believable they are hiding government knowledgeof alien but more unbelievable they are hiding thier own experiements regarding craft. You know what they say...sometimes the simpliest answer it the only answer...meaning that the government is hiding thier own experiments...of course this is not fact but only theory.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by riggs2099]



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by silver6ix
So as I said. Hypocrisy. Your truth is defined by the credibility you attach to someone else telling you its true. That isnt proof of anything except gullibility my friend.


No, it would not be hypocricy. If NASA came forward tomorrow and said aliens were visiting the planet, that would constitute undeniable proof. It would only be hypocricy if I or someone like me would not admit to that.




Originally posted by silver6ix
Wrong they have the same proof as anyone else. They, in many cases, choose to take someones word for it. They give that person credibility as you do to NASA and their proof is as valid as yours.


What in the world are you talking about? I never said they have different proof or evidence. I said the evidence available is not undeniable, incontrovertible, or conclusive. I never said anything about them having
"different proof."


Originally posted by silver6ix
It is not different than those who give credibility to the words of the Pope and those who do not, it is not proof it is a choice to believe in a lack of proof.


Actually, it is a lot different. The Pope operates in the area of faith. NASA, for instance, operates in the arena of empirical evidence.


Originally posted by silver6ix
The difference is clear, you believe in fiction, I only believe in fact and possiblity.


That is very rich, coming from someone who attacks people for demanding proof.

But once again, I have to ask. Why are you attacking me or any other skeptic? We are not standing in your way of proving this. If you have proof, it will stand on its own merits, regardless of what I or any other skeptic has to say. The fact you feel you need to attack skeptics, tear us down, silence us, demonstrates you do not have that proof.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 02:17 AM
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Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by NoRunRichard
 


You have no solid evidence. Your UFO's are here is based purely on speculation and faith. Show us something that says outright alien and cannot have another logical alternative. Eyewtiness's can be mistaken, ufo's can be misidentified terrestrial craft or maybe celestial occurances or they can be alien, and as for alien life taking people, there are only the stories that can be attributed to sleep paralysis or other things. See what we are talking about...there are too many alternatives to just the alien hypothesis. There is no evidence out there that points at aliens being the one and only answer.


but if you admit yourself aliens are one of the possibilities, whats wrong with discussing that possibility? and any evidence(not proof) which points to that possibility? everytime anybody does this sceptics turn up demanding proof, and screaming blue murder when ever someone mentions 'alien', why car'nt people if they choose believe the theory of aliens? many people outright believe a lot of things that have not been proven with solid evidence. why is believing 'aliens' so bad? all you need to consider it or believe it is evidence, and there is that, lots of pointers of evidence, just no solid proof.

eyewitnesses are used in a court of law. why do we trust them when they witness a crime but not when they witness a u.f.o. or alien being?

if its all based on speculation and faith then so are many theories in science, which develop from calculated possibilities and not proven facts.

if its speculation and faith to take peoples accounts and experiences into consideration, then people are convicted on speculation and faith everyday. in some cases the eyewitness testimony is what ends up convicting people.

what is it that makes sceptics turn up and keep reminding everybody there is no proof what so ever, that its a leap of faith when they are discussing any evidence that might or does point to aliens. which sceptics themselves admit is one of the possibilities, even if they don't think that is the case themselves.

try telling a scientist he must not consider evidence to one of the possibilities and if he does he is speculating because he dos'nt have instant proof.

what if we call it a alien theory? would that make it acceptable? theres no proven fact on how the universe began, but there are theories derived from evidence, just no proven fact.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by lifeform]



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 03:03 AM
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reply to post by lifeform
 


I don't have a problem with people thinking of it as only a possibility. The problem I have is that people stating that these things are fact and are the only possible answer.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 03:28 AM
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Originally posted by riggs2099
The main problem with believers is this; they pick and choose when to believe what someone says. They will BELIEVE that the government is telling the truth when they say these crafts are not thiers and have no clue as to what they are..but will turn around and NOT BELIEVE them when they say they don't know what they are. So they believe when it is goes along with when they believe but will not believe them when it goes against thier beliefs.


EXCELLENT, superb point. Believers absolutely cherry pick what they want to suit their own beliefs, and scoff at anything remaining.

Believers, take note.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 10:33 AM
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reply to post by SaviorComplex
 


Once again. You are the one constantly criticising others for a lack of "proof" when the "proof" you require isnt proof at all, its someone elses words.

If someone was disclosing secrets, how on Earth could your "proof" be possible? Do you really think any official person would come out and admit it, because thats the "proof" you keep going on about.


Again, you dont have any proof all you have is someones word, its all you have ever had and you CHOOSE to believe it. Its not undeniable, its not soltid and its not the holy grail of proof. Your proof can be disputed, and is disupted so you do not need to be asking anyone for proof you cannot provide for yourself.

YOU dont have proof all you have is the testimony of some very sketchy and questionable witnesses.




posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by riggs2099
reply to post by lifeform
 


I don't have a problem with people thinking of it as only a possibility. The problem I have is that people stating that these things are fact and are the only possible answer.


great, i hope you say the same to those who say they are certainly manned craft etc. when they to are only a possibility, there is no solid evidence men are flying u.f.o's, or anything are flying them. yet it seems to me its only those who mention aliens in absolute terms that get jumped on, nobody bats an eye lid when people say they absolutly believe man are flying them.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 01:30 PM
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reply to post by lifeform
 


As a skeptic, it is acceptable to call UFOs a theory of extraterrestrial visitations. This has already been regarded as theory as "the extraterrestrial hypothesis." It is more plausible to consider UFOs as a mythology of the space age. To call it a faith is not unreasonable. That there is more proof of people being mystefied of what their observing in the skies than actual extraterrestrial visitations is a sound argument until better evidence comes forward. Otherwise, why call the objects in flight as "unknown." This the paradox of calling UFOs alien spacecraft when in fact it is unknown.

www.howmodernsocietyinventedufos.com



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 01:50 PM
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Originally posted by silver6ix
Again, you dont have any proof all you have is someones word, its all you have ever had and you CHOOSE to believe it. Its not undeniable, its not soltid and its not the holy grail of proof. Your proof can be disputed, and is disupted so you do not need to be asking anyone for proof you cannot provide for yourself.


Ok..since you like to use ridiculous examples. I believe the moon is orbiting our earth. I believed this because someone told me this to be fact. I also believed it because I can see it, I also believed it because I looked through a telescope and saw it with my own eyes. I also believe in neptune or was it some other planet you said...any ways because I have been to an observatory and haves een almost every planet that science says exists. THE POINT IS-----> All of these can be proven that without a shadow of a doubt that they do exist and that the world can check these facts out for themselves if they had any doubts...can you state that with out a doubt in your mind the same thing can be said for the ufo/alien connection....See the difference if someone has doubts about what the scientists tell us about things such as planets being there...we are able to look into this and to look for ourselves whether or not this is true.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 01:53 PM
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reply to post by lifeform
 


I do think that hardcore skeptics are as worst out there, if not worse than the hardcore believers. When they state that a light in a photograph is the planet Venus and has not even looked into it thoroughly, then yes I will say the same thing.



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by Anonymous ATS
 


Brilliant, could NOT have said it better myself.


To anyone with an ounce of sense, there has not been a SINGLE piece of evidence that could bring one to conclude that aliens exist, let alone visit earth. NOT ONE SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE.

Some lights? Whoodeedoo.



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