If heaven is such a wonderful place...

reply to post by 12.21.12


Believe what you will. I will too. Take care.

Has anyone ever been to India or Nepal?? If heaven were real I'd imagine it would look like any Indian street or temple - completely overcrowded.

reply to post by Blueracer


Thats fine. You could take two minutes to look over the thread I posted or maybe even 10 if you wanted to check my sources. Oh well.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by 12.21.12]

Some of you that have this obsession for attacking Christians or other religions really need to find something else to do. I don't know, like punching babies in the face, that's always a fun one.

I don't understand some people. It's like they grew up Christian, at a certain age discarded it probably from the dogma, and spend their whole online-life attacking others and God, when they should go find out what everything means to them. It's like if I started my own religion saying hamburgers must be worshiped daily at 1:33 PM for God to be happy. Then someone comes a long and says, you and that religion are full of crap, therefor there is no God. It's not even a good argument. 1. Of course that idea is a little strange, find what makes sense to you then. 2. There are many religions in the world that don't worship hamburgers, go look into one of them.

Not everyone thinks that only 144,000 go to heaven so there's really no need to argue against it. I'll throw out another viewpoint, there is no hell and everyone goes to heaven, including Hitler and all your other old time favorites.

[edit on 19-10-2008 by ghaleon12]

I will go to heaven but I was put here to experience choice, love, pain, joy, desire, disappointment, satisfaction and so on and so on. Heaven will be everything and nothing all together. I don't think we will give a rats ass about any of those things in heaven because we will have it all and have all the understanding to no longer fret or be anxious or excited we will be all for eternity.

reply to post by psychedeliack


Very good. It's nice to see people who understand. The universe is static. When you are all knowing and omnipotent, everything possible is laid out and played out. In order to create "reality" with "time", it requires a limited perspective. Where you can only see part of the universe at any given time. It's the difference in watching a movie, and looking at the flim all at once. If you look at the film at once, no movie. Limit the perception of the movie in an even interval(time) and suddenly you have change/motion.

As I understand it, 4d would be the nearest possible realities to the current, or "dimensions". As 3d is 2d stacked on "top" of each other, 4d is also 3d objects/dimensions stacked on each other. So, you look at your keyboard and the nearest possible keyboard positions would be the 4d. and you can take that and make it 5d and on and on. Of course, it's not really just the keyboard, it's everything, but in this example only the keyboard is different in the frames. I can somewhat picture it in my mind, but it is impossible to actually show.

We actually change "dimensions" as "time" moves forward without realizing it. Because from our linear perspective it seems like we've only moved in a straight "timeline". The choices and things you do determine the direction you move across the dimensions. We make tiny adjustments really for the most part. But if you go and rob a store, you'll be going down a "timeline" which probably includes you being in jail. Where as when you decide not to, then you do not. It's all a choice.

So you really have to figure out where/what you want to be, find out the path(through actions) that leads to that place, and then be that change to end up in a better place. It's easy to see in your immediate life, just in how you act towards people.

It kills me the way people focus on image, like image is "truth".

Biblically there is nothing to support that only 144,000 are going to heaven. This number was how many was in the host that announced the second coming, not heaven's capacity limit. You would have to ignore the very next sentence that says "After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. " - Revelation 7:9

In fact, this 144,000 were male virgins: "These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure." - Revelation 14:4 Are you saying only male virgins are going to heaven?




[edit on 19-10-2008 by saint4God]

So.. basically you're saying for the evidence take some hallucinogens? Erm, surely although it will alter my view of reality, it'll be a drug fuelled vision? Excuse me if i don't take you seriously.

reply to post by invisiblewoman


not afraid of death eh. say that on your death bed. i somehow doubt you will be so certain when your time comes.

Originally posted by Blueracer
reply to post by Discotech

 

Because not everybody is going to Heaven. Do you think that Adolf Hitler, John Wayne Gacy, and Eileen Wuernos are going to heaven? Probably not.

Only 144,000 are going to Heaven anyway.

Many more people are supposedly going to be resurrected on a paradise Earth.

I won't get out the bible right now and look up chapter and verse because whenever religion is brought up it turns into a pissing contest because certain people let there ignorance be the standard by which they cling to no matter what.

And I don't want to argue. I said my piece. Believe what you will. Take care.

Reread Revelations and you will see that only 144,000 people will get into heaven AFTER the rapture. That paradise you are talking about is a thousand years of heaven on earth. After which Satan will be unbound and his and the damned will have their final verdict handed to them. Now the real question is what your interpetation of hell is. I believe that hell is a place that is void of God. If during your time their you come to the conclusion that you have sinned and believe truly in your heart of hearts that Christ is the way then you can be spared. However, like the bible states, while you are in hell you curse god then you cannot be saved. Those that can be saved will be brought back from hell during the final verdict and the rest will spend all of eternity in a fiery lake.

Think of hell prior to the final verdict as a thousand years of pentince and those who accept their blame and repent will be spared. I choose to repent know rather then spend 1,000 years in a place void of love and compassion.

The answer to this question is that nowhere in the Bible does it say that when a man dies, he goes to heaven. Yeah I know, shock horror, but mainstream Christianity will not admit that. The Bible says over and over again that man returns to dust, he goes to the grave, and awaits the resurrection, either to eternal life, or judgment. What mainstream Christianity teaches actually contradicts scripture.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art , and unto dust shalt thou return.

Some of the words translated as hell actually mean simply the grave, such as Sheol and hades.

Mainstream Christians may try and quote ECCLESIASTES 12:7 (Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it), but the word translated in English as SPIRIT is the Hebrew word ruwach, which means, breath, wind. It is talking about the breath of life breathed in man at creation, not an eternal spirit. If man is already eternal, then what is the need of a resurrection? And what is need for the gift of eternal life?

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And if man only receives eternal life through Christ, how can a sinner suffer eternally in hell fire? The truth is, they cannot, and that is why scripture says that hell fire actually destroys a man, it is an eternal punishment (eternal death), not an eternal punishing....

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

At the resurrection un repentant sinners are not given eternal life, but are once again destroyed in the second death.....

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

What is the second death if man is already eternal?

All questions that mainstream Christianity does not like to address.....

The Bible, the Bible, the Bible ....

What is the Bible ?

Answer: it's a book. A religious book if you like. Just one of many religious books.

Who wrote the Bible ?

How many ordinarily intelligent individuals somehow suspend their intelligence when it comes to their religion .. how many believe, in some arrested area of their brain, that 'God' wrote the Bible ? Or that the Bible contains the literal 'word of God' ?

The Bible is a book. It was written in bits and pieces over time by MEN

MEN with an agenda or two or three

Then OTHER men decided what would and what would not be included in the Bible

Then, other men undertook to 'translate' the Bible

During most of this time, the unwashed masses were forbidden to read the Bible

Then MORE 'translations'

and finally, the unwashed masses WERE permitted to read the Bible.


What a MESS !



Please, do NOT quote the Bible to me as if it is the ultimate authority.
Because it is not.

It may be YOUR ultimate authority. But that's just you. And you are just one of 6.6 billion.

I'm really tired of Bible-belt fundamentalists citing the Bible in this forum as if it is the 'final word' in any discussion.

Not all of us suffer arrested development. Kindly take that into consideration. Many of us have moved beyond our childhood religious education and long ago began thinking for ourselves.

Not ALL Christians believe the Bible is the word of God. You'll have to deal with that.

And another thing you need to deal with is this:

* citing the Bible in thread after thread does NOT confer authority on you

* It does NOT in any way mean you ARE an authority about anything at all

* It does NOT mean you have cornered the market on Christianity or spirituality

* It does NOT mean you have even one answer, let alone all

* It does NOT mean you are one iota closer to God than is any aethiest

* It does NOT grant you any measure of 'superiority'

and most of all

* Citing the Bible does NOT provide you any REAL 'security, safety' at all, spiritually speaking

* Does NOT mean you get a free pass just because you've used the Bible as a weapon and shield

Do you really believe that 'God' is contained .. captured .. caged .. within the pages of a book written and bastardised by MAN ?

Do you really believe that any god worth his/her salt has 'favourites' ?
Do you ?
If you do then that's YOUR god, not mine


God is not to be found within the pages of any book

Those who believe God is restricted to and limited by a book written by man are an embarrassment to themselves and God.

144,000. It was a 'big number' back in the days when old goat herders sat around their campfires hissing, spitting and ranting about those of other tribes who'd beaten them at whatever. It was a HUGE number. So those pissed-off old goat herders tried to even the score by telling themselves they'd won anyway .. they were God's 'favourites' .. they'd get to their god's 'heaven' and the other tribes would be sorry then, oh yeah .. they'll be sorry then when their god closed the door after the massive 144,000 were in.

But that was then and this is now. What was 'relevant' then (and what kept people plodding on then, clinging to the promise that they'd be part of the HUGE 144,000) is not relevant now.

The Bible is a BOOK .. written by MEN .. fallible men .. LIARS many of them .. politicians of their day making promises and threats in the same way their 2008 counterparts are making threats and promises right NOW.

God is NOT a book. Is not IN a book. Is not BOUND by a book written by fallible men.

So kindly do NOT imply that God is in ANY way obliged to conform with stuff written in a book authored by mere men.

YOU might believe it. So what ?

You might also believe absolutely that the telephone-directory is the word of god. Doesn't make it true though. Won't save you, even if you memorise it word for word and cite it in forum after forum.

God is much BIGGER than any mere book

And GOD is unimaginably bigger than those politicians and schemers who wrote the Bible to serve their own ends, delusions, hallucinations, dreams, disappointments, vengefulness, anger, lust, schemes, etc.

reply to post by doctorex


I'm afraid you're simply wrong. Particular judgement of the individual is referred to by Christ himself in the story of Lazarus and the just poor man (where He also covers "hell") , Luke 16: 20-21, and from the Cross, Luke 23:43. St Paul in 2Corinthians 5:8 says "Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord." and Phillipians 1:23 "I am caught between the two. I long to depart this life and be with Christ, (for) that is far better."

These last two quotations also serve as a reply to the OP.

As a mainstream Christian I am happy to relate that these issues are readily addressed, in fact if you look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Article 12, paras 1021-1041 you will see a summary of the Church's teaching on these matters with extensive quotations from scripture and tradition.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

reply to post by Dock6


I can't decide what is more amusing: your text yelling, which occurs in nearly every sentence, or the fact that you can write a two page diatribe while having total ignorance of the methods of biblical translation.

Really, you just sound like a person with an agenda trying to get everyone into your rudderless, little boat.

I have a suggestion if you have the energy - go pick up a couple of books on biblical translation and start reading them. You'll find that the people who preserved the bible, both old and new testaments, were by-and-large skilled, dedicated professionals and not the politically motivated hacks you make them out to be. You might actually find it an interesting read if you like history.

My other suggestion is that you put aside your anger at people who enjoy the bible and quote it often, and go read the bible for yourself. Maybe you'll find a nugget of wisdom in it that even applies to you.

If you haven't read the bible as an adult, then you need to find time to do it.

Originally posted by Discotech
Then why do we work so damn hard to keep people alive longer ?

There's plenty of stories in the bible of Jesus healing people to keep them alive longer, yet if heaven is such a wonderful place why does he do this ?

Surely quality and longevity of life should not matter if we're going to heaven which is apparantly a wonderful place to be ?

I mean the world we're in now is only the waiting for that better place so why do we fear death so much and try everything possible to prevent people from going there ?

The fact is, our societies don't try everything 'possible' to prevent death. In modern societies, we only try everything covered by the insurance premium or medicare. Matters of life and death have been reduced to utility functions with the extreme examples being abortion and euthanasia.

As a Christian, I'm on a mission for God and I'm not about to shorten that mission because I don't like the conditions under which I'm being asked to serve. Does this mean I cling to life, cowering from death? No. It means I follow Christ's example to try and give my life so that others may live. There are thousands, perhaps millions of Christian martyrs who gave up their lives without regret because they were determined to share the good news of eternal life in Christ.

If you have faith in Christ, then death has no sting and the grave has no victory and you don't have to grieve like men with no hope.

To put it in secular terms, this allows people to stop inverting their utility functions in the last 10 minutes of their lives.

I believe this is why they made suicide a sin.
If they didn't,every religious zealot would be topping themselves just so they could go.


As to the 144,000.

Revelation 14:4

These are they which were not defiled with women;for they are virgins.These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth.These were redeemed from among men,being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb.

[edit on 24-10-2008 by jakyll]

Originally posted by Supercertari
reply to post by doctorex

 

I'm afraid you're simply wrong. Particular judgement of the individual is referred to by Christ himself in the story of Lazarus and the just poor man (where He also covers "hell") , Luke 16: 20-21,

The lake of fire, if you read Revelation, takes place after the 1000 year reign of Christ (revelation 20)

and from the Cross, Luke 23:43.

This verse has been twisted around and punctuation added (there is no punctuation in the original greek) to give the impression that you have taken from it. In the original Greek, the words are in a different order. It says, "and He-said to-him amen to-you I-AM-Saying today with me you shall be in paradise"

Jesus wasn't saying to him that this very day he would be with him in paradise, he was making a promise to him that very day, as "today I am telling you, you shall be with me in paradise". Now we know that the man on the cross did not go to paradise with Christ that day, why? Because Jesus himself didn't go there, did he?

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Christ was dead, in the grave, for three days and three nights (yeah, try an get three days and three nights between good friday afternoon and Easter Sunday morning, buts thats another story), and as Paul said....

1Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

If the thief on the cross was resurrected from the dead that day, then he was resurrected before Christ, who was to be the first. The thief on the cross is still in the grave, but he will receive his promise.

St Paul in 2Corinthians 5:8 says "Yet we are courageous, and we would rather leave the body and go home to the Lord." and Philippians 1:23 "I am caught between the two. I long to depart this life and be with Christ, (for) that is far better."

All this is saying that he would rather put off mortal flesh and be with the Lord in the resurrection, in his spiritual, immortal body, as he described in Corinthians 15. When Paul died, his next waking moment will be the resurrection, why? Because, as it says in Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing"

As a mainstream Christian I am happy to relate that these issues are readily addressed, in fact if you look at the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Article 12, paras 1021-1041 you will see a summary of the Church's teaching on these matters with extensive quotations from scripture and tradition.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Then answer me three questions.....

1) Why the need for the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ, if man is already in heaven?

2) If man is given eternal life as a gift from Christ, and the wages of sin is death, how can a man who is not given eternal life suffer eternally in hell?

3) What is the second death mentioned in Revelation 20?

The dead are not raised until the last trump, the return of Christ, and this is only the first resurrection...

1CORINTHIANS 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The passage above clearly shows that those who are to be made immortal, are not done so until this time, which is yet future. I'm sorry, but if you believe scripture, and not traditional belief, then there is no arguing with this.

[edit on 24/10/08 by doctorex]

I think the we should not be so scared to die. But the fact is y where on earth we get to learn things on earth that no other being can learn. But did you ever think that on earth there is a battle between good and evil those that should live live to help God fight in anyway God wants. preaching saving souls. Going throw the path to which God wants. We cant be just ok with death. Death is not our goal. Life after death is our goal. And while on earth you can change for yourself and those around the life after position for every soul God brings you.

Really good question actually. As much as I would like to believe in a heaven, I surely have my doubts. Maybe its because we dont want to let go of our loved ones. Maybe its because all of us have that voice in the back of our head that gives us doubts that any afterlife exists at all.

But when my cousin Brittany died, I definetly wasnt thinking of what a great place she was going to. Your first instincts is to think "Im going to have to live my life with this person I love not in it anymore." So in the end maybe we do subside the pain with knowing theyre in a better place. But not till long after the person is gone.

s&f for you.