The "up-to-the-minute Market Data" thread

reply to post by Vitchilo


Brundesbank should hire a backhoe immediately and start burying the gold at various secret cache sites right away! They can just say like M1 and other banks it is missing we don't know what happened to it...

Take a closer look at the outcome of the EU summit.
They did use the magic word “trillion” and so that helped temporarily.
The two big things that came out of the EU Summit were:
1) That the EFSF fund would be levered up 4-5 times to around 1 trillion euros ($1.4 trillion).
2) The other is that France’s Sarkozy may be able to get China to help Europe out. China indicated that it “may” be willing to provide support if certain things were met like contributions from other countries and strong guarantees on the safety of their investment.
There were other things that came out of the EU Summit such as an agreement that would try to get Greece’s debt to GDP ratio down to 120 percent by 2020. (Like that’s in great shape right?)
They also agreed to try to raise investor confidence in the banking sector by increasing the capital position of banks to 9 percent of Core Tier 1 by the end of June 2012.
But by increasing the capital required to be held by banks, it’s that much more that they can’t lend out too. Remember, there’s a compounded effect here too since for every dollar that they normally could free up in capital requirements, they can lend out 7-12 times as much. So that poses an issue too.
All of this initially sounds good to the retail investor at first when they hear about “1 trillion euros” set aside to deal with all of the junk and funk in the Eurozone.
However, when you realize that they’ll just be putting out an interim report on this by December 2011 which will then be finalized in March of 2012, you realize that it will be too little done, too late.
It’s just one more sign of governments acting too slowly and always being in “reaction” mode. Can a government ever see something ahead of time and act proactively? It seems not!
Therefore it’s for all of these reasons why I believe that the latest EU Summit has only treated the symptoms of the patient but not the root cause of the disease yet.
This is the real disease they have to deal with:
Europe has a monetary union but not a fiscal union. That’s a long-term problem. (At least the U.S. does have a monetary and fiscal union.)
They also have a divergence going on between the smaller economies and the larger economies. That’s not going to go away.
It’s hard to set interest rates that are good for Germany and expect them to be great for Greece and Portugal for instance.
So I still say that the euphoria that the markets has seen will be temporal and that this rally will fade just like the TARP and TALF rallies faded here in the U.S.
So my point is that in the near-term these Band-Aids cause some awesome “short-covering rallies.” But over time, investors realize that the effect of these programs will take T-I-M-E and the rally fizzles because the root, fundamental cause of the financial disease hasn’t been dealt with.
Therefore, long-term I still don’t think the euro’s disease has been cured…only the symptoms treated with this trillion euro fund.
So the “risk-on rally” may last a short while longer where offensive currencies reign like the Aussie, Canadian and New Zealand dollars.
But it won’t be long until the “risk-off” trade is back on as investors go back on the defensive once the hype dies down and they realize that this program will take time to kick in.
Therefore, don’t be fooled. This thing has much further to go before it’s all over. The euro is not out of the woods yet.

reply to post by Vitchilo


The thing vitchilo is that the Euro will collapse, actually the predictions of the end of the EU and the euro has been for the end even before it took hold, so the collapse will happen eventually and is not going to be in years but just months, no amount of bailout is going to make the EU experiment live any longer.

No. Euro will not collapse. Europe will collapse instead

The British never believed in Europe and they are prepared for the extinction of this temporary phenomena.

Germans will be very pissed because they will interpret this as an experiment which was supposed to make them better than they were 70 years ago, but then they have been betrayed and used. Germans were always too naive... Too serious to not be too naive. Sigh!

The biggest problem here are the Chinese. They may believe that they can still catch up with the West. But when they realize that West is crumbling down, they will switch their attention towards something else. They might also feel betrayed.

Greeks and Italians will be happy to get rid of Europe.


Me too

Interesting article by Ursula K. Le Guin.
blog.bookviewcafe.com...

Long-Term Discouragement

Our government decided over fifteen years ago that certain citizens, categorized as “long-term discouraged workers,” do not exist. The category exists, but the citizens don’t. When the Bureau of Labor or other entities give the numbers of the unemployed, these men and woman are excluded: they are not there. They are our government’s version of the Disappeared.

Strangely enough, though out of work, they do not belong to the category of “the unemployed.” The Disappeared (according to an excellent article in DailyFinance) consist of those who “had pursued jobs in the past 12 months but, discouraged by the lack of opportunity, had stopped looking altogether.”

It’s an amazing effective trick, replacing human beings with categories. The statistics present us the highly managed category “the unemployed” as a reality; editorial writers and TV pundits intone it over and over; and it’s only too easy to accept it — until you realise it entails the belief that two and half million unemployed Americans aren’t looking for a job, won’t look for a job, wouldn’t look for one if there were any to look for. Do you believe that?

The trick was perfected in 1994 to pad employment figures. It has worked beautifully ever since.

It allows the government to keep telling us that unemployment is “only” around 9% . The actual figure, once the padding is removed, is certainly over 16% and probably over 22% — very near the worst days of the 1930’s.

A long article from Martin Armstrong.

www.martinarmstrong.org...

www.martinarmstrong.org...

. This is a SOVEREIGN DEBT CRISIS and that negates all the issues
being thrown around. This is not a problem that can be solved with making money gold. It cannot be
solved by confiscating ALL the wealth of the rich or raising taxes. It cannot be solved by shutting down
ALL social spending. For no matter what we try to do, this has been allowed to go too far. We have
crossed the point of no return. We are on the edge of complete collapse of the Western Financial
System that threatens to destablize everything and obliterate our future. Pension funds depend upon
SOVEREIGN DEBT. We are in a position where there MUST be a complete structural reform, or
everything goes bust and civil unrest will destroy what is left.9
Even a balanced budget will no longer work because the proportion of
interest within total expenditure will continue to rise until it
consumes 100% of the whole budget. Interest is like the Energizer
Pink Bunny that keeps on going until you default or monetize the
debt. If we eliminated all banking, credit, leverage, and could create a
one-for-one gold standard with ABSOLUTELY no fiat money at all,
what will that accomplish? The proponents will argue that this will
create a discipline and stop inflation. Aside from creating the worst
economic collapse in history eliminating credit, it would be no
different than a balanced budget and the interest expenditires would
eventually still consume everything.

It is the unrelenting DEBT that
keeps growting. If you only printed money to cover the spending, that
would have been FAR LESS inflationary! As of 2010, the national debt
stood at $13,561.60 billion while the total accumulative interest expenditures were $8,575.5 billion. In
other words, had we just printed the money and spent it, the debt would be only $4,986 billion. Total
interest is about 63% of the debt. So a gold standard will do nothing but collapse the economy and a
balanced budget will probably create a civil war and ALL social spending would have to be cut to pay the
interest on the debt. The ONLY resolution is MONETIZE the debt and STOP borrowing unless in time of
war ONLY, or we DEFAULT and wipe out all pension funds, which would probably spark civil war. So let
us stop the peripheral nonsense dancing around the real problem – it’s the DEBT, not what is
MONEY or a BALANCED BUDGET!

The problem we have is a SOVEREIGN DEBT CRISIS that is at ALL levels of government, local, state, federal, on a WORLDWIDE basis meaning this is out of control of any one nation. There will be only two possible solutions; (1) MONETIZE the debt or (2) DEFAULT on the debt. There is going to be no other choice. We cannot borrow forever regardless of what we call money. How can we return to a gold standard now? Everything previously spent would become payable in gold. Your mortgaged would now be payable in gold. Some lick their lips for they think gold would be $10,000+ an ounce and they see themselves as rich. What they overlook becomes like the guy who is frozen for 50 years and then is revived. He calls his stock broker firm and the $1 million he deposited is now $100 million. He jumps for joy – until the operator says that will be $1 million for the next 3 minutes. Gold cannot rise in value disproportionately to everything else on a sustained basis. It is undervalued no doubt and is playing catch-up. But under a complete monetary system collapse, everything is revalued. INFLATION is when a storm wipes out the organge crop. MONETARY INFLATION is different. That is the COLLAPSE in the purchasing power of MONEY that is seen in EVERY sector, not just one commodity. When you talk about revising the MONETARY SYSTEM, we are in the category of a wholesale change in the value of absolutely everything.

As a complement to your post is this from Fox of all places:

Most of U.S. Unemployed No Longer Receive Benefits

he jobs crisis has left so many people out of work for so long that most of America's unemployed are no longer receiving unemployment benefits.

Early last year, 75 percent were receiving checks. The figure is now 48 percent -- a shift that points to a growing crisis of long-term unemployment. Nearly one-third of America's 14 million unemployed have had no job for a year or more.

Their options include food stamps or other social programs. Nearly 46 million people received food stamps in August, a record total. That figure could grow as more people lose unemployment benefits.

"There's going to be increased hardship," said Wayne Vroman, an economist at the Urban Institute.

The number of unemployed has been roughly stable this year. Yet the number receiving benefits has plunged 30 percent.

The jobs crisis has left so many people out of work for so long that most of America's unemployed are no longer receiving unemployment benefits.

Early last year, 75 percent were receiving checks. The figure is now 48 percent -- a shift that points to a growing crisis of long-term unemployment. Nearly one-third of America's 14 million unemployed have had no job for a year or more.

Congress is expected to decide by year's end whether to continue providing emergency unemployment benefits for up to 99 weeks in the hardest-hit states.

If the emergency benefits expire, the proportion of the unemployed receiving aid would fall further.

The ranks of the poor would also rise. The Census Bureau says unemployment benefits kept 3.2 million people from slipping into poverty last year. It defines poverty as annual income below $22,314 for a family of four.

Yet for a growing share of the unemployed, a vote in Congress to extend the benefits to 99 weeks is irrelevant. They've had no job for more than 99 weeks.

They're no longer eligible for benefits.

Their options include food stamps or other social programs. Nearly 46 million people received food stamps in August, a record total. That figure could grow as more people lose unemployment benefits.

So could the government's disability rolls. Applications for the disability insurance program have jumped about 50 percent since 2007.

"There's going to be increased hardship," said Wayne Vroman, an economist at the Urban Institute.

The number of unemployed has been roughly stable this year. Yet the number receiving benefits has plunged 30 percent.

Government unemployment benefits weren't designed to sustain people for long stretches without work. They usually don't have to. In the recoveries from the previous three recessions, the longest average duration of unemployment was 21 weeks, in July 1983.

By contrast, in the wake of the Great Recession, the figure reached 41 weeks in September. That's the longest on records dating to 1948. The figure is now 39 weeks.

So there's a whole lot more people who are unemployed yet unaccounted for on the unemployment stats due to not receiving benefits.

So the next time you hear the diarrhea that comes out of the mouths of the likes of Mark Zandi from CNBC and his pollyanna rosey-color glass assessment of the employment situation in the US, you can be sure he needs to shove his opinions and comments where the sun dont shine.

This is the same treatment, you know, that receive the people who won't vote on elections because they don't trust any of the candidates. They are simply ignored, although they often represent majority.

In Australia you only have to work for 1hour per week for you not to
count on unemployment stat. with 'casual labour' on the increase under
employed people whould make the figures mutch higher. i bet they use
the same method in the US and other countries.

reply to post by DangerDeath


Probably, but I think it will not matter how in wish order everything will collapse.

Nations need their currency, they need their sovereignty, the experiment is a total failure and EU is worst now that it was before the experiment began.

The nations like Greek that depends on Tourism needs their own currency, make it more attractive for tourist to spend in the country.

Nations needs to be able to devalue their currency for their own advantage just like China does.

Is not fair for a group in a few nations to control what other countries can and not do.

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by DangerDeath

 

Probably, but I think it will not matter how in wish order everything will collapse.

Nations need their currency, they need their sovereignty, the experiment is a total failure and EU is worst now that it was before the experiment began.

The nations like Greek that depends on Tourism needs their own currency, make it more attractive for tourist to spend in the country.

Nations needs to be able to devalue their currency for their own advantage just like China does.

Is not fair for a group in a few nations to control what other countries can and not do.

You are right. Equalization the way it is has ruined many aspects of European way of life and culture. EU is a victory for corporations. It's not gonna be easy to deal with that.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
And some piece of news that is sure to piss off Germans...

At the G20 meeting at Cannes, France, the UK and the US want Germany to pledge their gold reserves as collateral to save the euro...

At least some intelligent people are running the Bundesbank...
Bundesbank: c'bank reserves will not help fund EFSF

Germany on Saturday rejected media reports that Bundesbank reserves would be used to fund the euro zone's rescue facility after German newspapers said Group of 20 leaders had discussed the idea of tapping central banks.

The Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung (FAS) reported that Bundesbank reserves -- including foreign currency and gold -- would be used to increase Germany's contribution to the crisis fund, the European Financial Stability Facility (EFSF) by more than 15 billion euros ($20 billion).

The European Central Bank (ECB) would own the reserves, according to the paper, citing sources at the G20 meeting held in Cannes this week.

The Welt am Sonntag newspaper, citing similar plans, said 15 billion euros would come from special drawing rights (SDR) that the Bundesbank holds.

Disgusting.

"Germany's gold and foreign exchange reserves, which the Bundesbank administers, were not at any point up for discussion at the G20 summit in Cannes," government spokesman Steffen Seibert said.

They are trying to cover their butts...

So they say ``no`` for now... until Merkel and her puppets in the German government orders the Bundesbank to do so.

The big problem is Italy. What Italy could do is invade the Vatican and take all their gold over.

edit on 5-11-2011 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)

Thats all over the Online-News (even MSM) right now. Apparently the IMF wanted to create a Sub-Organisation (or something like that) to to get more Money to stenghten the EFSF,since it is not allowed to do it itself by Law...

As i understand it,this Sub-Organsation wanted to be able to get its Hands into each Nations Central-Banks to get around €60 Billions. Germany would have been "forced" to pay around €15 Billions into that...WITH OUR GOLD AND OUR OWN CURRENCY RESERVES

Good thing at least one Banker,Weideman,saw what they tried to do and vetoéd it,or Merkel would have agreed without knowing what she would have done.

And now its out of the Bag how they wanted to rape and steal us,Germany,blind behind our Backs...

GAHHHHHHHH


And seeing as they still want to discuss this next Week or so,they are going to "suggest" and implement probably more BS to rape us until we have nothing left...And seeing how incompetent our Politicans are,im starting to seriously consider leaving this #hole before its gets worse...

But where to go? Everywhere its going downhill...

reply to post by Shenon


The problem here and something that should be raising red flags all over the nations involved in the bailout that will be the biggest losers is that the bailout money is not there, these countries financial rats do not even know how to collect the money that has been promised.

They are gambling around with money they don't have, if the banks are in trouble already how in the heck they are going to try and scrape funds from them?

You are absolutely right, they are trying to cover their butts because they screw up big, big time, at the end they will have to print the money for the bailout.

Don't the Asian markets open soon? I wonder if we will see a decline.

Greek election set for February 19

THE two main Greek political parties have agreed on February 19 as the best date for early elections in the debt-strapped eurozone country, the finance ministry says.

At a meeting held late on Sunday alongside one that grouped party leaders George Papandreou and Antonis Samaras, delegations from the socialist PASOK and the rightist New Democracy agreed the "most appropriate date" for the elections would be February 19, the ministry said in a brief statement.

An election not until February 19? So between then and now a coalition government will govern Greece. Whether Panadreou or a coaltion, whether Berlu 'bunga-bunga' sconi is removed, or whatever, it is all just changing the chairs on the deck.

And speaking of Berlusconi...

Would you trust Silvio Berlusconi to save the world from economic ruin?

HE hosts "Bunga-bunga" sex parties, makes inappropriate jokes and is generally considered Europe's flakiest leader.

He also holds the future of the euro - and the world economy - in his hands.

But Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi insists that despite defections from his shaky coalition he still commands enough support to save Italy - and the world - from financial disaster.

It's a scary thought when you consider that he doesn't believe anything is wrong. "Life in Italy is good. The restaurants are full. It's difficult to get a seat on a plane they're so busy; holidays are all booked up," he told Italian TV after he was put on probation by the IMF.

Yesterday he defied calls from his own coalition and from the country to step down or bring in members of the Italy's opposition parties into his government.

"We maintain that there are no alternatives to our government until 2013," he said yesterday.

Nevermind that ATS are bringing you the doom and gloom headlines. Lame stream media is doing a pretty good job of this as well.

Well Italy being the third largest economy in the Eurozone, it would certainly have some major impact if the Italian economy descends into deep recession. How much of that would be global in scope may depend on what crisis eventuates and to what extent I guess..

reply to post by Vitchilo


I'm very concerned that the US may try something similar by confiscating 401k and IRA accounts to back the "national" debt or "international" debt.

Senate Hearing: Seizure of 401k Accounts May Be Reality Soon

Reports over the last couple years have suggested that the U.S. government would move to seize traditional 401k and IRA retirement accounts by rolling them into a government managed Guaranteed Retirement Account, or GRA. For the most part, save in alternative media circles, the reports have been dismissed as nothing more than an “idea” floating around.

www.shtfplan.com...
Someone needs to get Greece to cal Iceland before there's no Greece anymore. Why don't these folks understand that the vast majority of the debt is due to the megabankers and THEIR immoral, ill advised derivatives and credit default swaps.

reply to post by robyn


I tell you what, that will never happen, we will collapse as a nation and the fat rats will be scrambling to get the heck of the nation before their heads starts to roll over or we do a French revolution here at home.

We Americans may have gotten fat and lazy and dependent on government hands outs, but if is one thing you do not play with, is the future of those that have worked hard for what they expect to get in the future.

We Americans are revolutionaries at hart, is in the blood, if you think that the OWS is a joke wait if something like taking over the 401K will do to incite more protest, trying to create divisions on protest by political and media propaganda will mean nothing when all people from all kinds of sectors in the nations take a stance against the corporate dictatorship we have.

reply to post by marg6043

I seriously hope you are right. But, judging how most otherwise intelligent folks are blindly lead around by fear generating media hype and dishonestly framed issues (example: the last debt ceiling debacle), I can foresee a scenario where the threat to lose everything v accepting a government "managed:" account could be jammed down people's throats.

The false financial flag would consist of US economic collapse (dollar collapse & bank failure), very apparent inflation with a generous sprinkling of class warfare (grandma will starve and welfare, food stamps is threatened).
The back drop will be a stressful war in support of Israel with the accompanying surge of knee jerk patriotism.

Problem, reaction, solution.

Errrrrrr. It's not looking good.

I'm having a bunch of problems with my computer... I got a worm last night and it just destroyed everything... I don't know when I'm gonna be back up to speed...

Anyways. Just to post this...

Tomorrow is Italy's big day... There's a vote on the budget at 9.30AM EST and Berlusconi could lose power... if he does, look out...

Not that it won't matter much, Italy is pretty much done anyways.