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The "up-to-the-minute Market Data" thread

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posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 12:59 PM
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Let's see another ``bullish`` sign for the economy... especially Japanese economy...




Very bullish for the japanese economy.




posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Shenon
 


Indeed, makes no sense.

What also doesn't make sense..

Force banks to write off 50% of the capital on Greek debts, risk a derivative backlash, drastically underfund the already underfunded Pension programs in Greece which, in turn, will lead to huge debt issuance's that will lead to Greece issuing up to another $100 billion Euro's in the next two years to cover those funds ....

When out of that $1 trillion "bailout" fund ... they could take $240 billion Euros and pay off all non-Greek creditors.. without slashing capital, without underfunding underfunded programs, without risking derivative backlashes, and without damaging the entire European bond market by scaring off private investors who don't want to risk loosing 50% of their capital in future cases in PIIGS markets!!!!

And still have $760 billion Euros left. Which could pay off the entire national debt of Ireland and Portugal as well..
I mean .. they're going to print the money anyways, to give out in tiny portions, why not drop the monetization nuke of the century and eliminate the debt all together?


It makes perfect sense when you understand how the business cycle really works.. What everyone does not understand is credit/debt expansion is what fuels this economic model which is why it is doomed to failure. The banks and the world sell debt that is how they make a so called profit. It is money from nothing created by promises to pay. it robs the working class and makes the elite banksters wealthy beyond imagination. Thy do no care about Greece or the people suffering around the world who have been robbed of all thier wealth by this fraudulent system.

People are under the illusion that there is actually real money that has value in circulation when there is nothing but debt and debt instruments period! Once you understand that then it makes perfect sense what they are doing because they can do nothing else. Without expanding the debt thier meal ticket goes away and they will do it even if nine tenths of the world has to starve to make it happen!



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:01 PM
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Originally posted by Vitchilo
Uh oh...

Remember this?

USA was 3 hrs away from Economic, Political Collapse in September 2008

According to Rep. Paul Kanjorski (D) (PA-11), in mid-September of 2008, the United States of America came just three hours away from the collapse of the entire economy. In a span of 2 hours, $550 billion was drawn out of money market accounts in an electronic run on the banks.

Rep. Kanjorski: "It would have been the end of our economic system and our political system as we know it."


Now let's see what's happening...

Here Come The "Unintended Consequences": Stock Futures Liquidity Dries Up Post MF Bankruptcy

Just like with Lehman, when it took 3 days for the full consequences of the bankruptcy to manifest themselves in the form of a complete freeze of money markets, so too now we are starting to see the same phenomenon following the blow up of one of the world's largest exchanges. The first observation comes courtesy of Dow Jones which informs us that the MF Bankruptcy has "devastated stock futures liquidity." Specifically, "MF Global's departure from the clearing scene has "devastated liquidity" in stock index futures, a long-time CME floor broker said. He estimated about a third of the pit population is missing. On a normal day, six or seven filling brokers stand on the top rail. That's down to three.


Uh oh?


can you help me understand what is taking place? is the MF being compared to Lehman? Are we looking at a Lehman style event in the next 3 day?



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


Right, any actions by the ECB will have a negative long term effect, my point being, the options they continuously choose seem to be the worst options in a list of options. But .. again .. for the 14210480 time on ATS ..

All money has value if someone is accepting it as payment for goods and or services. If I could get someone to take my dirty boxers as payment for something .. it has value.



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by camaro68ss
 




can you help me understand what is taking place? is the MF being compared to Lehman? Are we looking at a Lehman style event in the next 3 day?

Well MF is the 8th largest bankruptcy in the history of the US. So it's a big one.

And currently, the money markets are freezing, just like post-Lehman... some analysts say that it will only be of short duration... better hope it's short otherwise the whole system will block like in September 2008 and the banks will not lend anymore...

This could be real bad and what finally brings the whole thing down... we don't know for now, the next few days will show us.



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by camaro68ss
 


Lehman was an investment bank that had huge derivative issues (CDO's and CDS contracts mainly) that caused a cascading effect that ultimately bankrupted the largest insurance issuer of CDS contracts for CDO's .. AIG.

MF Global is a Brokerage .. the largest in the World. I believe the biggest issue with MF will probably be disruption of trade.. when the largest brokerage in the World just vanishes, it will have an effect on the markets. But theoretically, unless there is something seriously toxic on their books, or they somehow entangled themselves in the derivative market .. it shouldn't cause a Lehman style cascading effect..



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 



or they somehow entangled themselves in the derivative market

I bet they did. The question is, who DIDN'T put themselves in the derivative market?

Anyway the next few days will show how it will play out.

Anyway, here goes Greece :
G-Pap Demands Referendum To Rescue Plan, Seems Set To Throw In The Towel

* PAPANDREOU SAYS NEW GREEK PLAN MUST BE PUT TO REFERENDUM
* PAPANDREOU SAYS GREEKS CALLED ON TO CHOOSE ON COUNTRY'S COURSE
* PAPANDREOU SAYS CALLS FOR VOTE OF CONFIDENCE ON POLICIES
* PAPANDREOU SAYS GREEK DECISION WILL BIND ALL POLITICAL PARTIES
* PAPANDREOU SAYS REJECT ELECTIONS AT THIS TIME


Referendum to rescue plan? Mwahahhaaha... it will be defeated like 75%+ against... Stick a fork in Greece it's done... oh wait don't bother it's overcooked.

edit on 31-10-2011 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:13 PM
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reply to post by Vitchilo
 


I'm starting to think so too.. just because the excuse by the MSM sources that they are failing because of their holdings in European debt is complete and utter BS. There was obviously something seriously wrong with their business model, something on their books that they have not revealed. Because not only is a business failing because of sovereign bond holdings the dumbest thing I've ever heard, but the fact that no one wants to buy them is telling. Because if that's the worst of their issues, someone would have purchased the brokerage in a heartbeat.



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:15 PM
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Look at that insanity :


Greek PM says Greece is close to generating a primary surplus

Close... as in ``we'll be close in 10 years``...



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by Vitchilo
reply to post by camaro68ss
 




can you help me understand what is taking place? is the MF being compared to Lehman? Are we looking at a Lehman style event in the next 3 day?

Well MF is the 8th largest bankruptcy in the history of the US. So it's a big one.

And currently, the money markets are freezing, just like post-Lehman... some analysts say that it will only be of short duration... better hope it's short otherwise the whole system will block like in September 2008 and the banks will not lend anymore...

This could be real bad and what finally brings the whole thing down... we don't know for now, the next few days will show us.


Well what were analysts saying about lehman back when it fell? Short duration hick-up? I dont recall, i was not into economics in 08 like i am now.



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:20 PM
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reply to post by camaro68ss
 


I don't know... people didn't know because it was a ``first``... so I don't think they speculated on that...

I didn't read the news that much back then.



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by Vitchilo
reply to post by camaro68ss
 


I don't know... people didn't know because it was a ``first``... so I don't think they speculated on that...

I didn't read the news that much back then.


i guess we will find out in the next few days. seems to me the market is not taking it that bad. only down 1.5%. but then again thats a normal swing of things for the market now a days



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:27 PM
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Ahh .. and so we have the details. The holdings of European debt were a symptom of the bigger problem .. theoretically, investing in European debt is actually very profitable (Greek 1 year bonds are 90+% returns..) BUT .. for MF Global it was not the actual debts that was an issue, apparently it is it's leverage. Because they invested so much so fast in European debt, and because those bond prices have dropped, they cannot unload that debt to cover costs elsewhere in the corporation without taking a huge loss. And if they take the loss, it destroys their already fragile leverage.


An unleveraged investor could have ridden out the current downturn, but MF, as is the fashion on Wall Street, was heavily leveraged.ts June 30 balance sheet showed $44.4 billion of liabilities and only $1.4 billion of equity. The firm was heavily dependent on short-term funding, with less than half a billion in long-term debt. That meant the firm was vulnerable if the value of its holdings fell, or if its lenders simply got nervous and demanded more collateral to back the loans.


Daaaammmnnnnn is all I have to say. The ironic part about it is that the investments he made were actually very good investments, but not if you have no liquidity.. Who want's to invest in a firm that won't see action on it's investments for another 12 months?
Since it cannot sell the debt without bankrupting its self it has to ride it out till maturity. It also appears that after investors fled the corporation leaving it stranded with it's debt holdings, it's creditors may have preformed a Margin Call.

economix.blogs.nytimes.com...

Talk about a disaster..



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:43 PM
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Hell things are so honky dory in Germany, they are doing tax cuts!


German revenue ample to fund planned tax cuts according to an official

Lucky germans. Until the EFSF asks for the money and Merkel give it to them that is.
edit on 31-10-2011 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 01:54 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


Most things were answered already,but you asked why they don´t just start Printing? Because of Germany´s History and the Hyperinflation that occured in the 1930´s. That seems to be the only thing our Goverment won´t allow to happen ever again,or they would already do it...though i think its already underway on a smaller Scale (ECB buying Bonds)

Printing Money is probably the only Solution in the End,but i doubt Germany will let that happen without leaving the Euro first.


reply to post by Vitchilo
 


Don´t bother. There is alot of things which are "proposed" now which don´t make any Sense whatsoever in the current Situation. They just want to deflect the Attention away from the Debt-Crisis and the blatant treason they commited lately...
edit on 31-10-2011 by Shenon because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 02:17 PM
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Three Out Of Four: Spain Joins Ireland, Portugal With A Gun To Its Head, Demanding Concessions

Confirming that the tsunami of demands has been unleashed is today's announcement from the Bank of Spain that not only was Q3 GDP flat (read: negative), but that the deficit target for the year would not be achieved. Google translated from Expansion: "The Bank of Spain says the Spanish economic growth was zero in the third quarter from the previous quarter and warns that there are significant risks that may prevent achieving the deficit target this year. The Bank of Spain said that the information available for the third quarter suggests that the pattern of decline shown in the previous quarter "would have continued in the middle months of the year, in an environment marked by the deepening crisis of sovereign debt euro area."

In any case, "if the budget execution data in the coming months indicate the likelihood of these risks materialize, it would be necessary to adopt additional measures in line with the unconditional nature of the commitment by the Government in meeting the fiscal targets and the close scrutiny to which public finances are subject amid the current sovereign debt crisis ", defends the organization headed by Fernandez Ordonez.

And by additional measures, the country means incite further protest once more cuts are announced, which in turn will lead the country to demand debt cut concessions in order to appeas the "angry mob" in the process getting another rerun of Greece.

The only question we have now is: when will the 4 out of 4, Italy, finally make its anticipated appearance on the concessions-demanding bandwagon and tell Europe to take it or leave it... and but "it", we mean a 25%-50% haircut on its debt.

And when that happens, French banks and literally all the banks in Europe are kaput.

This guy rocks :

edit on 31-10-2011 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 02:31 PM
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All these guys are doing is playing Sokoban and getting huge bonuses for that.
And one by one they go down by Hand of God



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 03:04 PM
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Left in Limbo, MF Global Is Suspended From Trading


ICE added:

In addition, and until further notice, the Exchange will no longer recognize MF Global or any of its divisions, including the Pioneer Division, as a guarantor for purposes of floor trading privileges. Accordingly, floor brokers and traders guaranteed by MF Global or its divisions may not access the trading floor. The foregoing actions have been taken based on circumstances regarding the financial condition of MF Global.

The CME Group has also suspended MF Global from trading. Here’s the full statement from the echange:

Effective immediately, and until further notice, CME’s Emergency Financial Committee, in accordance with rule 975, is limiting all trading for customers of MF Global for liquidation only.

In addition, and until further notice, CME Group will no longer recognize MF Global or any of its divisions as a guarantor for purposes of floor trading privileges. Accordingly, floor brokers and traders guaranteed by MF Global or its divisions may not access the trading floor. The foregoing actions have been taken based on circumstances regarding the financial condition of MF Global.

CME Clearing will process any transfers at the last settlement price at the request of customers. Such positions will need to be re-margined at transferee firm. Customers wishing to execute a liquidating trade should contact MF Global.


A Lehman Brothers, in Miniature


In short, we are seeing Lehman Brothers play out again, in miniature. MF Global reported assets of about $41 billion, as compared with some $700 billion for Lehman, but they are following the same basic template. All of which shows how little has changed with regard to the resolution of distressed financial institutions in the United States, despite the passage of Dodd-Frank


dealbook.nytimes.com...



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 03:08 PM
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About the US debt....

US Treasury says it expects to issue USD 305bln in net marketable debt in Oct-Dec quarter


will issue USD 541bln in net marketable debt in Jan-Mar quarter, second highest on record

846 billion from October 1 to April 1... 6 months deficit... and they are probably underestimating it... that would still mean a 1.692 billion deficit... which is a deficit of about 11% of GDP... way too high.



posted on Oct, 31 2011 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by Shenon
 




Most things were answered already,but you asked why they don´t just start Printing? Because of Germany´s History and the Hyperinflation that occured in the 1930´s. That seems to be the only thing our Goverment won´t allow to happen ever again,or they would already do it...though i think its already underway on a smaller Scale (ECB buying Bonds)


Err.. no .. they already printed. It's how they plan on spending the printed money, that's the issue I was discussing. They already have plans to extend the ECB bailout fund to one trillion Euros of printed money. Has nothing to do with Germany.



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