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The "up-to-the-minute Market Data" thread

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posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:01 PM
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K...

All of this is a Illusion...0's and 1's in a computer somewhere...

The powers that be, "created" "Weapons of Fiat Destruction"...

You can't tell me that Citi...with thousands of Buildings around the world and the contents in them, are worth "Cap-Ex" of $5B...and it's stock is only worth a $1?!?!?

Our Gov has $120B+ into a business that is worth $5B now?!?!?

Someone has to see something is SERIOUSLY wrong in this picture...

Is it just me or...???



Nikkei 225 7,224.27 11:43PM ET -209.22 (-2.81%)

Gold $934.85

[edit on 3/5/2009 by Hx3_1963]




posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:03 PM
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reply to post by marg6043
 




Thanks Rockpuck for the information, this are big news after all as we can see the beginning of the socialization of the banking system right in front of our own eyes.


The banks cannot be officially nationalized until the bond holders and preferred share holders can be pacified.. when your talking about wiping out the investor base of some of the largest companies in the world.. your talking about potentially knocking out a chunk of the upper class.. These "Capital injections" have a return of 10% via the preferred Shares..

I imagine at some point in the future, when America forgets we bailed them out, they will quietly ask the Gov to forgo collecting those dividends.



I wonder if the new 200 billions that will be set up by the TARP ( it got another name now) will indeed make the government own more of the Citi and BofA if they take more money.


TARP has it's old name, there are other acronyms for different programs other then TARP, some are essentially the same thing though.

Assuming the banks need the "Capital" then yes, the US stake in said companies will increase. There was talk of finding other ways to get the banks their funds without annihilating share holders but .. uh .. really wasn't anything to be done about it. Citi is decrepit, share holders already wiped out, so our further stakes in that company really don't mean much to the economy.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:05 PM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


It doesn't matter which way you look at it the entire world economy is going to collapse. We can continue to shovel money into AIG, but eventually it is going to bankrupt America. Well we already are bankrupt, but China and other nations are going to stop buying our debt which means America becomes 3rd world overnight.

That also means that the global economy collapses. TPTB really did a number on themselves this time. They will be exposed, eventually.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:06 PM
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reply to post by Hx3_1963
 


All of citi is worth something like 1.1 trillion (perhaps pre bank failures, it's assets are not exactly transparent)

But it's worth a hell of a lot more than 5 billion.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 
Meh...not exactly...

Look up Maiden Lane I...II...III...
www.federalreserve.gov...

...anyone want to "Decypher" that and get back to me???

Most people have no idea the "whosits/whatsits", going on in the "Background"...sorry...




[edit on 3/5/2009 by Hx3_1963]



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:09 PM
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reply to post by Hx3_1963
 


Cuz I is bored..


At 454bp in gross yield, as calculated by the IRA Bank Monitor, real estate is the third most profitable area of lending for Citibank after loans to depository institutions (714bp) and miscellaneous loans (1,410bp), which is usually a euphemism for subprime loans. Indeed, looking at the high gross loan yield for Citibank's miscellaneous loans, which comprise 3.8% of total assets, subprime consumer loans is a pretty good bet.


subtract the losses of course.


At 110bp of default in 2006, C has one of the highest bank default rates of any large BHC and just below the 112bp of HSBC Holdings (HBC), which recently stumbled due to rising defaults and restatements related to subprime lending at its Household Finance unit. Here's the question of the week: Will C follow in HBC's unhappy footsteps and likewise be forced to restate past period results due to subprime loans?


My Linky Link

EDIT::

Forgot to add that this information is for Fiscal Year 2007..... way before the collapse. In fact, this was at Citi's highest trading levels.. since 2005 they where the highest defaulting bank in the world.. and yet.. they say.. no one ever saw this coming..

I cannot find information for 2008, it may be to soon yet.

[edit on 3/5/2009 by Rockpuck]



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:17 PM
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reply to post by Hx3_1963
 


I cannot read jumbo like that gives me a headache lol..

OK, on Citi, citi went from the largest bank in the World by mid 2008, to the 4th largest in mar 2009.

www.euromoney.com...

For whatever reason I cannot copy the text from this site.. from Moody's, it lists Citi of having a Market Capitalization of 110 billion. (2008)

That of course does not include assets, just market value (probably around $10/share as this was in late 2008ish) .. I would say it was further eroded of course.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:19 PM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 
Well..that's all nice & good...but...which is it?

Citi either has these "real" assets...hence "value" or...NOT...

Wall St...the "Ultimate Lie Detector" says...

*BUZZ*

Sorry...you'll not advance to the next round of "Financial Arbitrage"

In economics and finance, arbitrage is the practice of taking advantage of a price differential between two or more markets: striking a combination of matching deals that capitalize upon the imbalance, the profit being the difference between the market prices. When used by academics, an arbitrage is a transaction that involves no negative cash flow at any probabilistic or temporal state and a positive cash flow in at least one state; in simple terms, a risk-free profit. A person who engages in arbitrage is called an arbitrageur - such as a bank or brokerage firm. The term is mainly applied to trading in financial instruments, such as bonds, stocks, derivatives, commodities and currencies.

If the market prices do not allow for profitable arbitrage, the prices are said to constitute an arbitrage equilibrium or arbitrage-free market. An arbitrage equilibrium is a precondition for a general economic equilibrium. The assumption that there is no arbitrage is used in quantitative finance to calculate a unique risk neutral price for derivatives.
en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 3/5/2009 by Hx3_1963]



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:22 PM
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2 turn down appointments to Geither's Treasury today

Rockpuck, Looking at 2007-2008 reports is kinda like mental masturbation. We have learned that much of the accounting was fraudulent, they made bad stuff look good on the books.

We really don't know what these companies are truly worth, and what they hold that actually has real value

Hence the problem. There is no confidence.

Until the fraud, the very creative embezzlement is brought out and dealt with properly, there will be no confidence.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by Hx3_1963
K...

All of this is a Illusion...0's and 1's in a computer somewhere...

The powers that be, "created" "Weapons of Fiat Destruction"...

You can't tell me that Citi...with thousands of Buildings around the world and the contents in them, are worth "Cap-Ex" of $5B...and it's stock is only worth a $1?!?!?

Our Gov has $120B+ into a business that is worth $5B now?!?!?

Someone has to see something is SERIOUSLY wrong in this picture...

Is it just me or...???




Well the part you are not looking at - the part they are intentionally hiding is their off the balance sheet "assets", and what kind of derivatives they may potentially have to pay out on. Nobody really knows what their true financial situation is and the fact they are intentionally doing everything they can to hide it should give you a clue it isn't good.

What you really should be looking at is 6 months ago I watched their CFO say everything was great and they would need no new capital - then just a week ago they beg the government to take a 40% ownership stake because otherwise they were going under. I for one do believe they are going to be completely nationalized, and that therefore the stock is selling at about the right level.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:36 PM
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reply to post by proximo
 
that's what I told/asked someone earlier...

He asked, "should I invest in them?"

I answered, "Do you trust the Gov to keep them "alive" at all costs?"

...That has already been answered by Tiny Tim...
Geithner Says Administration Will Ensure Banks Get Funds to Avoid Collapse U.S.
www.bloomberg.com...

...now...with the mass chaos, scams, Ponzis, scandels, insider trading + in progress...what do you think???




posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:40 PM
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reply to post by Hx3_1963
 


This "arbitrage" thing, do you understand it Hx3 ? I just cannot grasp how any investment can be made risk free ? Or is this a good single term to lump all the creative financing/ derivatives and scams under. Frankly, it seems convoluted, shortsighted and just plain dumb.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:41 PM
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Well at least we aren't looking at dow futures dropping through the floor tonight.....


Edit!

Dow Jones -21.00 6610.00 3/6 2:11am

I had on accident clicked the post market not pre market links on CNN

[edit on 6-3-2009 by whoshotJR]



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:44 PM
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A new word has been coined.

baraknophobia (n). - an intense fear of someone taking your hard-earned money and giving it to someone else

Just keeping it real.



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by sad_eyed_lady
A new word has been coined.

baraknophobia (n). - an intense fear of someone taking your hard-earned money and giving it to someone else

Just keeping it real.




- SOCIALIST



thats pretty good...



[edit on 5-3-2009 by TrainDispatcher]



posted on Mar, 5 2009 @ 11:51 PM
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reply to post by whoshotJR
 


No futures are not dropping hard

DJIA INDEX 6,616.00 -15.00 6,647.00 6,647.00 6,614.00 00:24
S&P 500 684.70 -1.40 686.40 688.10 683.60 00:30
NASDAQ 100 1,081.00 -2.00 1,082.50 1,084.00 1,078.50 00:24

News...


Zhou Pledges Fast, Heavy-handed Policies to Restore Confidence
By Li Yanping and Luo Jun

March 6 (Bloomberg) -- Chinese central bank Governor Zhou Xiaochuan pledged “fast and heavy-handed” policies to restore confidence and prevent the global financial crisis from deepening the nation’s economic slump.

“If we act slowly and less decisively, we’re likely to see what happened in other countries: a slide in confidence,” Zhou said at briefing in Beijing. The central bank has “ample room” to fine-tune monetary policy after a record surge in lending in January, he said.

The central banker said he saw “signs of stabilization and recovery” in the world’s third-biggest economy, echoing Premier Wen Jiabao’s confidence that the nation’s 8 percent growth target for 2009 remains within reach. Collapsing exports because of the global recession have dragged growth to the weakest pace in seven years and cost the jobs of 20 million migrant workers.

“This isn’t the time to be cautious with the measures you roll out, it’s time to overdo it,” said Dariusz Kowalczyk, chief investment strategist at SJS Markets Ltd. in Hong Kong. “The outlook for the global economy has deteriorated dramatically.”

Bloomberg

[edit on 3/6/09 by redhatty]



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 01:03 AM
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reply to post by redhatty
 


So, I guess they figure that they are going to do the same thing as everybody else is doing, but they are going to do it with "confidence". In other words they are about to put a gun to the banks heads and tell them they better make sure we grow our economy to our satisfaction.

Seeing how strict China is I don't see why anyone of the bank execs would even contemplate cooking the books. I guess stranger things have happened though.

They are going to "will" the economy to grow. I have a feeling that they are going to get slapped with reality.

Well at least its something different besides throwing money at the problem. Although other countries have tried raising interest rates in similar situations and it didn't work out to well for them either.

Who knows though maybe it will work, maybe.



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 01:56 AM
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reply to post by sad_eyed_lady
 


Wouldn't that be government in general?


And anyone who follows up with this thread, certainly has

Arithmophobia -- fear of numbers. Especially red ones..



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 02:22 AM
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Nikkei 225 7,173.10 2:00AM ET -260.39 (-3.50%)
Hang Seng 11,989.52 3:06AM ET -221.72 (-1.82%)
Shanghai Composite 2,193.007 2:00AM ET -28.069 (-1.26%)

Gold $938.85
Oil $43.85

[edit on 3/6/2009 by Hx3_1963]



posted on Mar, 6 2009 @ 02:40 AM
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Due to personal experience, I can see why Citi is in trouble. I know that my situation is not an isolated case from talking to others in the area. A few years ago I signed a mortgage with Citi to consolidate higher interest personal property loans. At the time I owned my house outright, so I qualified for a no closing cost loan. Their problem is that they own the housing appraisors (which is illegal--appraisors are required to be an unbiased third party). After the appraisor spoke to the loan officer, he valued my home at four times the fair market value. I live in a small economically depressed area with population 2500. For comparison purposes the appraisor used properties forty miles away in a city of 250,000. This did not really bother me I was able to consolidate more loans, shave several points of of interest rates, and lower my monthly payments by 2/3. Unfortunatly, I had to file chapter 7 last fall after losing my job. Now Citi has repossesed a house which, after the real estate market fell, which is roughly worth 1/9th of the money owed aginst it.

Yeah, I know. I have added to the current problem; but, that bank should not have resorted to illegal means just to write more loans. I never envisioned that I would have to default with the salary I was making. I lost my contracting job of 15 years due to lack of construction. I simply could not afford the payments on my new limited income.



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