The "up-to-the-minute Market Data" thread

13 k loss on 40k is 32.5%. Market has rallied 20% since her last statement so my 30% loss estimate is higher than most experienced, even your friend.

Originally posted by disgustedbyhumanity
13 k loss on 40k is 32.5%. Market has rallied 20% since her last statement so my 30% loss estimate is higher than most experienced, even your friend.

It was on 30K - reading comprehension is so necessary to have

You don't even ask which months were involved before you make a conclusion.

How does your # work out if those 2 months were from May-July 2008?

At least ask for the necessary information BEFORE you draw a conclusion, my friend

[edit on 4/24/09 by redhatty]

reply to post by redhatty


Ask any investment professional and they will tell you that individual stocks are a no-no in 401k's. The point with Cramer is that he is always telling folks to buy individual stocks, but when it comes to retirement accounts he believes you need to be more widely diversified. I hate Cramer but this is solid advice. Find someone who has had a 401k plan invested in equities for 25 years and then find out how much of their own money they put in. You will be shocked at how much they have made, even with the recent drops.

reply to post by redhatty


I would say what you say is impossible unless your friend was in individual stocks, which would mean that she made the decisions on her known and didn't opt for any preset portfolios.

reply to post by disgustedbyhumanity


Most 401K plan sign up papers have different funds that a person can choose from, high risk, medium risk and low risk. However they are named, those are the categories they fall into.

MOST PEOPLE do NOT have any investing knowledge. All these funds (and many employers) KNEW THIS when they started offering 401Ks.

It was a case of swallowing it hook, line and sinker for the average american.

Even someone with a very small amount of knowledge would have known that a self-directed IRA, or even a money market account was a better way to invest their money. Heck SAVINGS BONDS were a better way to invest your money.

But most people were not aware of this and ended up in a 401K.

Many of them have no idea what the difference in risk accounts means, and many times, the "advisers" from the brokerage, would do no more than ask how old a person was before making a recommendation to them.

Just because you and I have more knowledge about investing than the average person does not make even either of us always right. I know I've had my face ripped off with bad trades, and lost from bad investments too.

Fortunately, my gains are more than my losses

But to someone who has literally NOT A CLUE about investing, the 401K can be very dangerous - just ask some people today how happy they are with the choice of investing in one.

For example, the Fidelity Freedom 2040 an "autopilot" choice for 401Ks has a diverse mix of stocks and bonds, yet in the last year it has a loss of a little over 38%

Okay you say, but what about a "more secure" fund, well the Fidelity Spartan Total Market Index lost a little less, just a bit over 32% in the last year.

But wait, that one is not diversified enough you say? Well then how about the Fidelity Spartan International Index Why it lost almost 41.5% in the last year.

Now if you are not savvy about investing, you are not going to understand a prospectus, you are going to ask a co-worker or boss or the person on the other end of the phone when you call the 1-800 #

That is what the average American has been faced with.

Maybe you and I, personally, have not faced the same situation, but MOST of the working class has had to deal with losses like I documented above.

And mind you, that is IF they put all their $$ into JUST one FUND, which, of course, is NEVER recommended.

A TAX SHELTER is not a retirement account, although people have been led to believe that they are.

But then again, most people don't know any better & that is the crux of the problem.

im enjoying this post very much joined a manage fund for a small monthly fee feeling that i was was missing out on something because i wasnt in the know it took about 7 trading days to find out i was down 12k it was jan 08 dow was 12000 ish i still want to know what country i sent my money to where did it go but anyway i called them and cashed out at loss pretty much told them i think i can lose 12k in week all by myself and i did i was in and out all year and lost my own 12k by dec 08 but bought some bottoms and was 2k up net net for the year but then obama and his mama started spreading their cheer and we went through the worst jan ever in history and i was fully invested and got waxed again might have been hyped by the media sold out and bought the march low was doing great but monday wasnt a very good day anyway i know im not very bright but look out for the 200 day ema i want to be out again if we get there weve spent the last 9months below it and i think she'll offer some serious resistance most of the people i work with dont have 401ks the youth just drinks rockstar and monster drinks all day long and try to breed all night long thats what id like to do bring more babies into a world where there are no new jobs being created

A most excellent OpEd piece that pretty much covers it all. I highly recommend you follow the link for the full article

The Bailout Is a Fraud That Could Bring Down Obama

Goldman Sachs reports better-than-expected profits this quarter. Wells Fargo cleared record profits last week. The President, understandably, points to signs of hope and encourages Americans to be optimistic about the economy. But when do we move from healthy confidence to a confidence game? The banks are reporting profits thanks to massive infusions of taxpayer bailout funds. It’s simply silly to be lulled by cheery-sounding reports when the institutions are actually insolvent. At some point we have to take a clear-eyed look at the massive failure of our financial system. Ignoring it won’t make it go away.

That’s more or less what Elizabeth Warren, the distinguished chair of the Congressional Oversight Panel, says in her panel’s six-month report on the bank bailout. Warren, the government’s watchdog, concedes that there are differences of opinion on her panel, which probably accounts for her very carefully couched discussion of the crisis. Although she told The Observer that it is “preposterous” that the government hasn’t fired the bank managers who are responsible for the derivatives disaster, her panel’s report is cautious, with a scholarly explanation of the crisis in her video introduction. Nonetheless, the underlying criticism is obvious.

In a financial crisis like the current one, Warren explains, the government has three choices: 1. Liquidate failed banks. (That’s what happened in the S&L crisis. The government took over institutions, fired the managers, wiped out investors, but protected depositors. A lot of savings and loans simply went out of business.) 2. Put them in receivership. (That’s what Sweden did in the 1990s: failed managers were fired and replaced, depositors were protected, and the banks were returned to private hands under new management with healthier balance sheets.) or 3. Subsidize the banks. This last option is what led Japan to its “lost decade” — the real value of bank assets are obscured, as the government funnels tax money into insolvent banks, propping them up indefinitely. This last is the approach the United States is now taking.If you want to hear someone absolutely destroy that approach to the current crisis, check out a round of recent interviews with William Black, the professor of economics and law at the University of Missouri who was deputy director of the Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corp. during the S&L crisis in the 1980s. Black, who liquidated a few banks in his time and earned the eternal enmity of Charles Keating, minces no words in describing the massive fraud by bankers and the regulators, including Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner, whom he describes as abetting them.

LOTS of embedded links in the article, so do go there & read it all

The Bill Moyers interview of William Black should not be missed!

Finally...some kind of action by the .gov???

Someone better get this carp in gear and do something...

U.S. may remove Citi's Pandit: report
www.reuters.com...

(Reuters) - U.S. regulators who are concluding "stress tests" on banks may remove Citigroup Inc chief executive Vikram Pandit, the New York Post reported, citing sources it did not identify further.

The regulators may have to take such a step to show the government is taking as strong a stand on banks as it did with General Motors Corp when it removed Rick Wagoner, the paper said.

Citigroup finance director Ned Kelly told the paper in an interview: "Replacing (Pandit) would be dramatically destabilizing both for Citi and the system."

More at Link...

Bank of America's Lewis May Face SEC Review of Merrill Disclosure to Cuomo
www.bloomberg.com...

Banks May Struggle to Raise Money After Stress Tests as Bad Assets Triple
www.bloomberg.com...

Bear Stearns, AIG Dumped $74 Billion in CDOs and Loans on Federal Reserve
www.bloomberg.com...

UPDATE 1-NY fund manager Cosmo indicted on fraud charges
www.reuters.com...

Battered U.S. cities buy foreclosed homes to rebuild
www.reuters.com...

[edit on 4/24/2009 by Hx3_1963]

reply to post by redhatty


So the truth comes out finally, but hey we all know that truth behind the fake good news, right?.

Nothing but smoking mirrors, We the tax payer has been losing steadily with the bailout, the government has not profit anything from this bailout yet, every time the banks lose money (amid the so call profits) we lose along with them.

And remember more tax payer money is going to be infused in the banks in the next run around of bail outs.

Has anybody noticing very well know array of companies posting very high loses?

Another one in the list and more,

3M Profit Falls Sharply; Cuts 2009 Forecast

Diversified U.S. manufacturer 3M reported a 48 percent drop in quarterly profit and cut its full-year earnings forecast, citing falling demand and its customers' efforts to cut inventory.

This should be looked at very closely, as Geithner said no long time ago that TARP money may have to be extended to business also.

So it is me the one nothing the steady loses from big companies lately been posted or is just my imagination.

Another one,

Diversified U.S. manufacturer Honeywel International reported a 38 percent drop in profit and cut its full-year earnings forecast to more closely match analysts' expectations, citing the weak economy.

www.cnbc.com...

[edit on 24-4-2009 by marg6043]

reply to post by marg6043


unless a company has a direct relationship to the military industrial complex, they will just fail.

No TARP for you! As the Seinfeld version of the TARP Nazi would say

reply to post by redhatty
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If that is true then there goes the unemployment rates again, because low profits means more people that will lose their jobs so this big companies can survive.

Yesterday was UPS this means thousands of jobs in the line we are losing jobs at an alarming rate along with this companies.

Its becoming very scary out there in main street america.

[edit on 24-4-2009 by marg6043]

"Subprime Loans Corporate Style Will Fuel Defaults":

www.nytimes.com...


"So it went with the subprime mortgage crisis. And so it is now going with corporate loans and bonds. It appears that defaults on leveraged loans and corporate bonds will soon rise to levels not seen since the Great Depression.

If that does happen, a wave of corporate bankruptcies will deal another blow to the American economy, and present the Obama administration with more painful decisions about possible bailouts — bailouts that could be made directly or indirectly by persuading bailed-out banks to make loans that might not seem wise to the bankers."

Get another wheel of brie and bottle of wine ready kiddos,the next show is about to start.

And yet more telling articles...

U.S. manufacturers see no quick economic rebound
www.reuters.com...

BOSTON (Reuters) - More U.S. manufacturers are giving up the hopes they had for an economic rebound later this year.

3M Co and Honeywell International Inc on Friday joined a growing throng of industrials to cut their 2009 profit forecasts, saying that the business conditions have deteriorated faster than they expected and show no signs of significant improvement any time soon.

"We are no doubt in difficult times. More difficult than I foresaw four months ago," said Dave Cote, chief executive of Honeywell, on a conference call with analysts. "We don't know exactly how long these challenging economic times will continue."

More at Links...

UPDATE 2-Regions only major bank that may fail test - analyst
www.reuters.com...

BANGALORE, April 24 (Reuters) - Regions Financial Corp (RF.N) may be the only major bank that fails to pass the U.S. government's "stress test" and is also at risk of having to raise more equity, analysts at Oppenheimer said, and shares of the bank fell as much as 12 percent.

Oppenheimer's analysis comes ahead of a government briefing of banks on their performance on the stress tests it is conducting on the 19 largest U.S. banks to assess how much capital they might need if the economy sags further.

On Friday, regulators are set to start discussing their findings with the banks. U.S. officials will also outline publicly the process they followed. The final results will be announced on May 4.

If this is the outcome of the "tests"...What a joke...

Fed eases back curtain on stress tests
money.cnn.com...

U.S. test banks can turn to stakeholders
www.reuters.com...

Eastern Financial Florida Credit Union Placed In Conservatorship
www.ncua.gov...

Bailout cop: More disclosure now
money.cnn.com...

Moody's downgrades American Express on revenue
www.marketwatch.com...

HarbourVest closes secondary fund at $2.9 bln
www.reuters.com...

US, China to sign billions in business deals Monday
money.cnn.com...

[edit on 4/24/2009 by Hx3_1963]

reply to post by redhatty

The banking execs can easily defend their position by recalling the story behind the making of "Titanic." When the budget balloned to the point of upsetting the producer, which happened to be tough-assed Murdock, the production demanded cuts. Director John Carpenter wouldn't budge and was ready to walk away from the project. Instead of firing him, the production conceded and kept financing the project the way Carpenter wanted. As it turned out, the movie went the opposite way of the real Titanic and became the top money maker of all time enabling Kate Winslet to attend any party she chose even without an invitation. I saw her mingling in the bash thrown by Mick Jagger. Woody was there climbing stairs flanked by two chicks. He didn't acknowledge anyone and kept climbing the stairs. That was eerie sight. But Woody wasn't pissed, or something like that. He appeared to bathe in eternal bliss of sainthood. I think he went through some process of self-beautification.

reply to post by redhatty


401K's are not as bad as you give them credit. For one thing it is almost always the case that when a company offers you a retirement investments package including a 401k it comes with some form of match.

I have seen 20-50and 100% matches to 401Ks.. up to a certain percentage of your income.

Basically what this means is that if your making 60k a year, and you contribute your maximum match to your 401k your place of employment, if it's 100% (most common) will likely be paying you an additional $6,000 a year into your own retirement fund (approx, and tax free of course).

Roth IRA's are tax free investment funds, being variable or fixed.. you can add $2,500 a year (I think they recently increased this) and thats the max.. it's tax deductible, but your control is limited.

Almost any sane investment advisor would advise you to utilize BOTH. 401k's are never to be opened, it's a taboo .. put your money away, close your eyes and pretend it doesn't exist. The biggest gain you will ever get out of a 401k is what your boss puts into it.

Think about it like this: If you loose 30% of your 401k, and your employer matches 100% of your contributions.. you've actually only lost 80% of what your employer gave you as a bonus. You didn't loose a dime of your own money.

401k funds, depending on risk level, are like any typical mutual fund and will re-direct their investments according to market conditions. For instance, low risk funds typically invested in DOW and S&P corporations, especially banks. Obviously, thats ultra high risk, and those funds (who already took the losses) would avoid them.

It's encouraging to tell people to open an Etrade, scottrade, what ever to do a little bit of investing with spare cash, but NEVER as a main source of retirement. And almost always, unless they are cleverer then most, it's to to tell them to put a few buck a month towards building up stocks for the long term, avoiding closing positions at the end of the day like a day trader.. for instance, to say you should do more then 30 trades per year.

That's just what i'd say if I was still in a capacity to advise people on their finances.

Here we go Kiddies...FDIC Friday!!!

Press Releases
www.fdic.gov...

Bank of North Georgia, Alpharetta, Georgia, Assumes All of The Deposits of American Southern Bank, Kennesaw, Georgia

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 24, 2009
Media Contact:
David Barr (202) 898-6992
Cell: (703) 622-4790
Email: [email protected]

American Southern Bank, Kennesaw, Georgia, was closed today by the Georgia Department of Banking and Finance, which appointed the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) as receiver. To protect the depositors, the FDIC entered into a purchase and assumption agreement with Bank of North Georgia, Alpharetta, Georgia, to assume all of the deposits, excluding those from brokers, of American Southern Bank.

The one office of American Southern Bank will reopen on Monday as a branch of Bank of North Georgia. Depositors of American Southern Bank will automatically become depositors of Bank of North Georgia. Deposits will continue to be insured by the FDIC, so there is no need for customers to change their banking relationship to retain their deposit insurance coverage. Customers of both banks should continue to use their existing branches until Bank of North Georgia can fully integrate the deposit records of American Southern Bank.

Over the weekend, depositors of American Southern Bank can access their money by writing checks or using ATM or debit cards. Checks drawn on the bank will continue to be processed. Loan customers should continue to make their payments as usual.

Hum, I regularly check googles' News/Business page to obtain a quick look at what the markets are doing, and then suddenly today it's gone. Why would they take that away now, especially when it's more interesting to check now than years gone by? Hum. Maybe they just don't want people seeing just how bad things are with one quick glance, out of sight ~ out of mind. Now I have to find another such page.

And the fun continues...Happy FDIC Friday!!!

A little to close for comfort actually...

Press Releases
www.fdic.gov...

Level One Bank, Farmington Hills, Michigan, Assumes All of the Deposits of Michigan Heritage Bank, Farmington Hills

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
April 24, 2009
Media Contact:
David Barr (202) 898-6992
Cell: (703) 622-4790
E-mail:[email protected]

Michigan Heritage Bank, Farmington Hills, Michigan, was closed today by the Michigan Office of Financial and Insurance Regulation, which appointed the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) as receiver. To protect the depositors, the FDIC entered into a purchase and assumption agreement with Level One Bank, Farmington Hills, Michigan, to assume all of the deposits, excluding those from brokers, of Michigan Heritage.

The three offices of Michigan Heritage will reopen on Monday as branches of Level One. Depositors of Michigan Heritage will automatically become depositors of Level One. Deposits will continue to be insured by the FDIC, so there is no need for customers to change their banking relationship to retain their deposit insurance coverage. Customers of both banks should continue to use their existing branches until Level One can fully integrate the deposit records of Michigan Heritage.

Over the weekend, depositors of Michigan Heritage can access their money by writing checks or using ATM or debit cards. Checks drawn on the bank will continue to be processed. Loan customers should continue to make their payments as usual.

More at Link...

Second bank going down:

Level One Bank, Farmington Hills, Michigan Cost: 71.3 millions $

And the first one:

Bank of North Georgia, Alpharetta, Georgia Cost: 41.9 millions $

So basically, another week, another 113.2 millions $ going down the drain... that's only 37 cents per person!