The "up-to-the-minute Market Data" thread

I found this to be pretty interesting :



World biggest debtor nations



Without looking, where would you put the USA?

Originally posted by GreenBicMan
If I am understanding what you are stating correctly, if you are investing in these stocks you are anti-american somehow?

What I am saying, and have been saying, if you had ever bothered to actually read and comprehend my posts, is that by #1 keeping money in the big Banks & #2 purchasing or "playing the market" with banks & financials you are doing nothing more than FEEDING THE BEAST.

You continue to feed the same beast that is destroying the wealth of America.

SO you tell me, does facilitating the destruction of America equate to being anti American?

You should alert all with a 401(k), IRA's, V. Annuities etc. to quit being so "un-american" and convert all your holdings into other sectors of the economy.

And again, if you had ever read my posts in this thread, you would know that I am most concerned for J6P who has little to no financial savvy or economics education, who, through his or her employer, has invested in what they thought was a safe vehicle to facilitate their savings for retirement.

Someone who knows no better, I cannot completely blame, but I have no sympathy for those who see their 401K turn into a 101K and don't bother trying to LEARN what is happening and why they lost their wealth.

If they choose to remained focused on American Idle and Pro Sports, then they deserve everything coming to them. Sort of a survival of the fittest mentality is what I have in this regard.

J6P's that choose to keep holding on to that 101K, formerly a 401K, and HOPE that things will turn around, instead of taking out what they have left & learning a better way, that's on them now isn't it?

That should go over well, good thought out plan.

Just as well thought out as J6P who has NO economic or financial education or intelligence trusting someone else to handle their money.

Hope you are good with a fishing rod and gum

I think you meant GUN, not gum, and yes, I am quite good with both a gun & fishing rod. I have a multitude of skills, both intellectual and physical, as well as a well stocked pantry & a little garden.

I hope you have the time to learn even half the skills I already possess - you may end up needing them.

ETA:

Back to the 401Ks situation, I just ran into a very excellent article and video

The Parts of The 401(k) Disaster Story 60 Minutes DIDN'T Report

Steve Kroft's "60 Minutes" report Sunday, "401-K Recession," good as it was, covered only a small portion of the whole retirees-are-now-officially-screwed story. It's a fascinating and infuriating story, with far too many angles for a 13-minute segment.

Boy, do we ever have a good show on this financial tragedy for you to watch. (See link below).

The whole sordid 401(k) saga largely involves big corporations dumping their pension plans and pushing 401(k)'s and then brazenly gaming the bankruptcy laws. The story has, sadly, largely gone unnoticed and unreported these past few months during the stock-market meltdown and housing/bank scandals.

How did we even come to have 401(k)'s in the first place? Why didn't we just keep company pensions, which worked fine for most people for years?

More at link

the Video: Frontline: Can You Afford To Retire Originally aired in May, 2006.

The information was out there BEFORE people lost their money, I have very little sympathy for those who did not pay attention.



[edit on 4/24/09 by redhatty]

reply to post by redhatty


There is one problem with your thesis RH

The stock market, 401(k), etc... its a *GAMBLE* brother

And still, if everyone followed what you are saying, the whole thing (all economies) are belly up, then joe 6 pack, joe the plumber, you, me, we are only worth what we have intellectually, and physically, their 401k's are not 101k's they are ZERO K's...

And yes, I am striving to be more like you constantly, on one hand I am the bastion of free markets, on the other I am looking out for joe six pack and the small players b/c they of course cannot be smart enough to invest, so we will create a "bubble" for them to live in

reply to post by GreenBicMan

External debt (as % of GDP): 95.09%
Gross external debt: $13.627 trillion (2008 Q3)
2008 GDP: $14.330 trillion

This is a bit misleading. For one, the US was measured from Q3 2008... this would be before our crash. Secondly, even at that time, we were over 14.3 trillion.

With Ireland rolling in at number one with a GDP of 811% in the 4th quarter, we have over 50 times their debt.

Gross external debt: $2.311 trillion (Q4 2008)
2008 GDP: $285 billion

So I understand that their per capita is greater, but I also feel it would be far easier for a smaller country like Ireland to turn their situation around than a Behemoth like the United States.

reply to post by redhatty


I would also like to say dollar cost averaging is the only way to trade a choppy market like this (for those type of investors), and if you did that you would have literally .0001% of the problems most are right now..

Also, I would like to state, if everyone followed your example of just taking all money out of 401k, what happens like this month when the market went up 20-30%???


Well.. dont worry, you have it in cash, that debt instrument.. b/c if the whole economy CRASHES that money you withdrew out of your 401k is about as worthless as some of the comments you just made

reply to post by Avarus


I would think the same exact opposite of what you just stated.. but ok

and everyone crashed in 2008 my friend, not just us

[edit on 23-4-2009 by GreenBicMan]

reply to post by GreenBicMan


the bubble mentality is where you go wrong.

The stock market was NEVER designed to be an instrument of wealth. It was a instrument for emerging companies to garner capital to grow their business.

Investors bought stock which gave capital to the companies, which allowed the companies to grow.

If you bought into a good company, for example AT&T when it was first offered, you would be quite well off, but if you invested in Edsel, you would not be.

The same still applies with companies like Google and Geren.

It was when imaginary things called derivatives, and CDO's and MBS and ETFs came into the picture (as well as dot com IPOs a few years back), you know when the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed, that bubbles began to form.

Prior to that, from the mid 1930's, the Stock Market did NOT HAVE BUBBLES. In fact for 50 yrs it was exactly as I described above.

Bubbles are FAKE. Once you understand that & understand it well, then you see just how screwed up everything has become.

I know it is difficult for someone born in the 80's or 90's to understand, you never learned "real" history in school, and for the entirety of your life, the Markets have been bubble based, but it was not always like that.

We need to return to how it was for those 50 yrs of stability and real growth.

So, please, don't create any new bubbles for me or my children to have to watch burst in the future.

posted by Rockpuck

Those 26,000 workers will receive FULL PAY AND BENEFITS while on their little vacation from work.

The states will foot the majority of their wages, while GM will cover a portion.
Please, lets not feel sorry for Union Dogs.

I can agree - I understand about the benefits - and it will be hefty - and coming out of unsuspecting pockets... and... I really do hope that these people are not re-employed in 2 months without a solid sensible plan to overhaul the present outdated technology.



[edit on 23-4-2009 by spinkyboo]

reply to post by GreenBicMan


Go back to the post, oh heck here it is for you...

The Parts of The 401(k) Disaster Story 60 Minutes DIDN'T Report

Read it, Watch the Frontline video, and learn something before you start, in your highly intellectual and knowledgeable way, to refute MY thesis.

reply to post by GreenBicMan

External debt (as % of GDP): 811%
External debt per capita: $549,819

Gross external debt: $2.311 trillion (Q4 2008)
2008 GDP: $285 billion

HOLY CRAP

Is it any wonder people are afraid Ireland's government may collapse? Turns out the Celtic Tiger was more like a Celtic Bubble... There is literally no way they can pay back capital plus interest on their national debt.. once enough matures, they are bound to default. Simple numbers proves this.

reply to post by redhatty


No, im not wrong


Dow historical chart

In fact, if you rely on "techincals" the crash in the mid/early 70's was worse than the 80's

You still have not answered or commented on my previous statement about withdrawing your money from a 401(k), the consequences of such, and the consequences of having worthless cash, meaning that it is no longer legal tender.

I am interested to hear what you would do with this $ that you have withdrawn? Certainly not put it in a bank?? And you cant carry it around anymore (thank you patriot act )

reply to post by Rockpuck


So true, when I saw this it really surprised me.

all those countries are so f'd financially.. looks like we are sitting pretty good, respectively lol

reply to post by redhatty


I dont go to huffingtonpost.com - i get all my news from foxnews.com instead ;0

Originally posted by GreenBicMan
reply to post by Avarus

 

and everyone crashed in 2008 my friend, not just us

[edit on 23-4-2009 by GreenBicMan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't everyone crash in Q4 of 2008? So why are they using Q3 statistics for the US and Q4 for many of the others? It's not like our information isn't available for the fourth quarter.

I know you're having about 10 conversations at once, so I don't mean to overwhelm you, but I'm legitimately curious to know why you think it would be easier for the United States to turn our situation around before these smaller countries. It's my understanding that it is far easier to organize and coordinate 4 people to make a necessary change than it is 300 (this is the approximate population difference).

reply to post by Avarus


Its cool, I like the convo (cant golf or watch the ticker at night lol)

What I am saying is, when the turnaround comes (already happening in my opinion) put a few of our blue chip companies together and that equals the GDP of some of these nations.

So this boils down to American ingenuity(or the people we steal from other countries lol) dominates.

Id also put it like this..

The less $ on each of our heads gives us the opportunity down the line for the next critical thinker (could be you or me) to get us out of our hole (even though we will eventually anyways)

Did you know we had over 2 billion dollars in debt in the late 1700's...?

Compound that annually and adjust for inflation and let me know how much that is!!!!

Originally posted by GreenBicMan
reply to post by redhatty

 

No, im not wrong


Dow historical chart

In fact, if you rely on "techincals" the crash in the mid/early 70's was worse than the 80's

And do you know what the catalyst to the 73-74 crash was? It was when we, and the world, deregulated our monetary systems by ending The Bretton Wood Agreements.

You can track every bubble and crash to another piece of deregulation.

You still have not answered or commented on my previous statement about withdrawing your money from a 401(k), the consequences of such, and the consequences of having worthless cash, meaning that it is no longer legal tender.

I am interested to hear what you would do with this $ that you have withdrawn? Certainly not put it in a bank?? And you cant carry it around anymore (thank you patriot act

)

A home safe is just as effective as a bank vault. You gain nothing these days from keeping money in a bank, you are not earning enough interest to make up for fees.

Should the USD no longer be legal tender, you will have much more critical things to worry about than what the stock market is doing, or what a bank is doing. We will have gone "Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome" by then. UNtil that happens, your argument is a strawman.

As to tax consequences, would you rather have most of SOMETHING or all of NOTHING?



[edit on 4/23/09 by redhatty]

Originally posted by GreenBicMan
reply to post by redhatty

 

I dont go to huffingtonpost.com - i get all my news from foxnews.com instead ;0

You can be really pathetic at times, GBM.

Here ya go, The Frontline Video

Not huffington post, it's PBS, try and educate yourself

reply to post by redhatty


Ok, your situation is only good if the market goes to like 100 pts then stays there for forever...

Mine is realistic, dont take your $$ out of your 401(k), as long as you believe in USA that is, and dollar cost average.

I wonder, if we both left this site for 5 years, came back (if the economy or internet is still here, and according to Gereld Celente that is questionable lol..) and we will see who had the better idea...

You still didnt touch on the point, that you would be down 20% or so with your idea the past month.. prob. be kicking yourself now, b/c with the tax penalty you just paid for withdrawing early, its more like 40% you just lost in 30 DAYS!!!!!!!!!! LOL GENIUS MOVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont think i touched on the tax situation, but you of course will be monitored with a cash check coming from a brokerage firm to either roll that into something, or pay way high on your taxes b/c you are withdrawing too early... and that leads to a whole nother situation dude...

your way sucks IMO.. and im not trying to be mean, seriously, im just really stating what i god honest to believe is the right approach

And I cant argue about deregulation... you are quite intelligent in those areas

Originally posted by redhatty

Originally posted by GreenBicMan
reply to post by redhatty

 

I dont go to huffingtonpost.com - i get all my news from foxnews.com instead ;0

You can be really pathetic at times, GBM.

Here ya go, The Frontline Video

Not huffington post, it's PBS, try and educate yourself

ok now u have appeasedD me


p.s. i bet i could beat you at golf



LOL

reply to post by redhatty


Bravo, redhatty

I have never heard of this agreement and its implications..

Perhaps, you could elaborate on this, like what the real deal was etc..