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The "up-to-the-minute Market Data" thread

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posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 04:30 PM
great article that is trying to connect the dots

Are the Big Banks Gaming the Taxpayer?

Multiple sources for this story - this is not a tin oil hat sort of story. Anyone who thinks this is "innocent" should ask why Bank of America (BAC) and Citigroup (C) were not buying these securities 3 months ago? or 6 months ago? Welcome to corporate socialism 101 and the unintended consequences - aggressively buy securities that the taxpayer is going to subsidize hedge funds and private investors to buy in a few weeks/months - you never lose in reverse Robin Hood America. Watch for the new HGTV show: Flip that MBS (Mortgage Backed Security)!

Much, much more at link

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 04:41 PM
We are officially living in Bizzaro World. I predict people will be rioting by the end of the year.

It is going to happen, and what is going to cause it is the most asinine illogical most pointless thing. Then America, and shortly following it, the world will descend into complete chaos.

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 04:51 PM
OMG - Why is TARP so big?

The U.S. banking industry had its first loss in derivatives trading last year, driven by a fourth- quarter $9 billion rout in credit markets.

U.S. commercial banks lost $836 million in 2008 from trading over-the-counter cash and derivatives contracts, compared with a $5.5 billion gain in 2007, the Office for the Comptroller of the Currency said in a report released today. Among the five largest banks trading derivatives, only Goldman Sachs Group Inc.’s bank unit reported a revenue gain in the fourth quarter.

“The poor results in 2008 reflect continued turmoil in financial markets, particularly from credit instruments,” according to the report.

Banks lost $9.2 billion in the fourth quarter, with $9 billion stemming from credit market losses. Foreign exchange generated $4.1 billion in gains, with commodity trading producing $338 million in revenue. Interest-rate trading declined $3.4 billion, with equities losing $1.2 billion, OCC said.

“In the fourth quarter, government support for the banking industry resulted in lower bank credit spreads,” according to the report.

Because of government intervention, the value of what banks had to pay to trading partners increased, causing losses to mount, according to the report.

The amount the banks would be owed if all derivatives contracts were liquidated, known as the net current credit exposure, soared 84 percent from the third quarter to a record $800 billion, largely because of a drop in interest rates that increased the value of swaps protecting against rate fluctuations. Interest rate derivatives make up 82 percent of all contracts.

Converted to Banks

The notional amount of derivatives rose 14 percent to $24.5 trillion as Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, both of New York, were included in the report for the first time after converting to banks in September.

The top five banks were New York’s JPMorgan Chase & Co.; Bank of America Corp. of Charlotte, North Carolina; New York- based Citigroup Inc., Goldman Sachs, and London-based HSBC Corp. Wachovia Corp. of Charlotte, was pushed out of the top five by Goldman Sachs.

The five banks accounted for 96 percent of the $200 trillion in derivatives contracts held by U.S. banks, according to the OCC report.

Goldman Sachs had revenue of $40 million in the fourth quarter from cash and derivative trading, OCC said. That compares to a $1.79 billion loss at JPMorgan, a $2 billion decline at Bank of America and Citibank’s $4.49 billion shortfall. HSBC lost $1.46 billion in the quarter.

JPMorgan remained the largest user of derivatives among its competitors, with $87.4 trillion in notional value, more than Bank of America and Citibank combined. Goldman Sachs held $30.2 trillion in derivatives at the end of the fourth quarter, OCC said.


SO the steps taken have made it WORSE and we are still scroomed

[edit on 3/27/09 by redhatty]

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 05:00 PM
reply to post by redhatty

I told you Red we are living in Bizzaro World, where down is up and right is left.

I mean you know everybody was screaming at the top of their lungs to not pass the bailout bill, but they did it anyway. Now we are finding out that government intervention always makes things worse.

I mean really who could have possibly known that government intervention only makes things worse.

[edit on 27-3-2009 by Hastobemoretolife]

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 05:05 PM
reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

No kidding - the scariest words I know are...

"We're from the Government and we're here to help"

(I did survive Katrina)

But the worst part is - the FED is sorta-kinda independent from the government.

The FED lowers the interest rates

Lowering the interest rates created an implosion

So now that WE KNOW who really screwed it all up - the FED and the Gov want the TAXPAYER to pay for their mistakes

Someone, PLEASE, Stop the World - I am packed & ready to get off this rock

PS thought - What happens to the US when the rest of the world reads this and can understand it? Since what happened here - severely impacted pretty much everywhere else - and not for the better???

[edit on 3/27/09 by redhatty]

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 05:14 PM
Well I took the day off to enjoy playing my favorite game Fallout 3, I am so glad I did.

Next week is going to be very very interesting. I for one am going to be watching the protesters outside of the G-20. The chance of violent protests is kind of making me giddy, UK really needs a good kick in the ass and a show of their rights.

As per the Stock Market... It's been so volatile over the last week I am not sure which way it will go. It will be drastic though.

Now time for some comedy

How's that for some lost in translation!

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 05:14 PM

Regulator "blessed" backdating at OTS: official

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - An independent investigating arm of the Treasury Department found a "handful" of cases in which a bank regulator ignored questionable backdating of capital injections, an official said on Friday.

The Treasury said it was investigating certain actions by U.S. thrift regulators involving backdating of capital placement at some institutions.

"There were a handful of instances of it. We are going over this now and we hope to have a report out later in the spring," said Rich Delmar, counsel to Treasury's inspector general.

A Treasury spokesperson said the department would make a determination later if any further action may be warranted after news on Thursday that the acting director of the Office of Thrift Supervision was placed on leave.

An OTS spokesperson declined to comment.
More at Link...

Sure why not...everyone else is screwing us...

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 05:26 PM
reply to post by redhatty

That is about what I thought when Obama said, " The Government is the only one that can save us." Everybody was like give him a chance and blah blah blah, that right there sealed the deal for me.

You know what is going to happen. Mass bond dislocation, I have a feeling at the G20 Obama is about to get told right to his face that we are going to move all funds from American Bonds(t-bills what ever you want to call our debt) into a set temporary reserve currency. Obama is about to get his feelings hurt and he might have wanted a controlled demolition of the American economy but it is about to happen swiftly.


They seem to be doing a really good job at that. They just need to fire the people that expose them, and nobody will say or lift a finger.

Freaking sucks.

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 05:35 PM

UPDATE 1-JPMorgan not sure will disclose stress test results

WASHINGTON, March 27 (Reuters) - JPMorgan (JPM.N) Chief Executive Jamie Dimon said on Friday the company is "thinking about what we want to do" about releasing the results of a government stress test on the company.

Dimon said the company already conducts stress tests on its performance and makes regular disclosures, but would not say that JPMorgan will make public the results of the regulators' test.

The U.S. government is testing 19 of the largest U.S. banks to see how they would perform under more adverse economic conditions than they are expected to face. Officials have said the tests are not pass/fail, and are instead designed to determine the amount of capital they might need if conditions further deteriorate.

The government has until the end of April to complete the tests.

Dimon, speaking after a meeting with President Barack Obama and other top bank CEOs, also said that "we don't need the money, we don't need the capital" when asked if JPMorgan planned to participate in the government's toxic asset plan.

The U.S. Treasury Department on Monday provided more details on a government plan to cleanse banks' balance sheets of up to $1 trillion in distressed assets.

Further, Dimon said the mark-to-market accounting guidance that the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) has proposed will "mean almost nothing to us" but might help some other banks.

FASB plans to vote next week on the guidance, which would give banks more leeway to interpret how they should apply mark-to-market accounting standards.

Mark-to-market accounting is aimed at giving investors an accurate view of financial companies' books, but some banks and lawmakers have blamed the rules for accelerating the financial crisis.
...Hell none of them will probley publish any reports...

...just like the Fed & Tres won't even say who got what to begin with...

UPDATE 1-Goldman Sachs CEO awarded $1.1 million in 2008

Bank of America May Boost Investment Banker Pay 70% After Merrill Takeover

Toxic Asset Plan May Appeal Little to Banks, Insurers on Write-Down Rule

[edit on 3/27/2009 by Hx3_1963]

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 05:55 PM
G-20 Group Urges 'System-Wide' Approach to Regulation

By Theophilos Argitis and Greg Quinn March 27 (Bloomberg) -- Group of 20 officials will recommend that leaders meeting in London next week agree to regulate hedge funds and other non-banking pools of capital that pose “systemic” risks to financial systems.

The officials were mandated by G-20 leaders in November to propose changes to global financial regulations. In addition to regulating some hedge funds, they will also recommend rules that would encourage financial institutions to build up capital buffers during good economic times, according to the working group’s final report, which was distributed in Ottawa today.

The report may signal a compromise has been reached within the G-20 on how much more regulation is needed to avoid future financial crises. European governments have called for more active regulation of financial markets and institutions, while countries such as the U.S. and Canada have been concerned about overregulation.

The report of G-20 finance ministry and central bank officials recommends the private pools of capital “register with financial authorities and disclose appropriate information.”

“There was common ground that authorities required information to assess the risks they pose and the need to regulate them if they are systemic,” according to the document.

They are gunning for global financial power.

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:03 PM

Commercial Real Estate: The Outlook Is Frightening

It looks like commercial real estate may crash harder than a lot of people thought it would. The WSJ is out with some rather frightening numbers.

The Journal notes that the delinquency rate on securitized commercial real estate loans has doubled since September and now stands at 1.8%. While that number indicates the problems that owners are encountering in servicing their debt, it is only a small part of the larger issue.

According to the Real Estate Roundtable there is about $6.5 trillion of commercial real estate in the U.S. which is financed with $3.1 trillion of debt. Deutsche Bank estimates that commercial property of all types have declined by from 35% to 45% from their peak 2007 highs. Do the math and with a 35% decline in value you end up with $4.2 trillion of assets and $3.1 trillion of debt.

The problem then becomes one of rolling over existing debt on a severely depleted asset base.

Between now and 2012 $154 billion of securitized loans will need to be refinanced and $524 billion of whole loans held by banks will have to be rolled. Estimates are that two thirds of the securitized loans and half the whole loans wouldn’t qualify for refinancing.

The seriousness of the problem is reflected in the Fed’s actions to assist the market. TALF has been expanded to include CMBS and the PPIP also proposes purchases of both whole loans and securities. Whether either will be able to materially alter the dynamics is problematic at best.

Compounding the program is the fact that commercial real estate exposure is spread over a wide swath of the commercial banking sector and the evidence is that most banks are under reserved based on the current data. Estimates are that the banks are carrying their holdings at somewhere in the range of 90% to 95% of original value (link).

A reviving economy could blunt some pain but not all of it. Like residential real estate, commercial underwriting standards became too loose in the bubble which contributed to over valuations. With tighter standards even rising occupancy rates and rents are not going to be enough to save all of the bad investments. There will be blood, it’s just unclear right now how much.

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:07 PM
reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

What has me scratching my head is - WHY IS OBAMA going to the G-20? The group of 20 is a group of finance ministers and central bank governors from 20 economies - not political leaders.

I do not EVER remember hearing of the US President going to any of the "G" meetings.

Then again, I never heard of a sitting President appearing on the Tonight Show either.....

Obama has admitted MANY times during his campaign that he has very little economics knowledge - so other than putting his head on a stake - why would he be at a meeting of finance ministers and central bankers>

Geithner or Volker should be going - not Obama

Oh I missed this one during the day...

Term Securities Lending Facility Options Program (TOP) (part of TSLF - another acronym in the TARP conundrum) had an auction today...

No options exercised through TSLF Options Program



[edit on 3/27/09 by redhatty]

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:30 PM
reply to post by redhatty

Agreed, he has no idea what he is doing, I fear for our nation. Although, I don't think Timmy the Tax Cheat is any better, and Volcker didn't exactly do great things either.

I think it is a fact at this point that Obama wants to micromanage everything he possibly can. I feel that he thinks he is smarter than what he is, which isn't very smart to begin with, and even though he knows nothing about finance he thinks he has all the right answers and knows how to fix the problems.

He has already said he has a "vision" and his will be open to alternate ideas as long as they conform to his "vision". When he made this statement in his "team of rivals" speech I knew his "team of rivals" was more of a "team of egos".

If we can make it through 4 years of Obama, I believe his presidency will go down as a case study of everything not to do. Especially when civil unrest starts breaking out, I know it is just a matter of time before that shoe drops.

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:31 PM
reply to post by redhatty

Because he is a narcissistic mental case who thinks he'll go over there and they will all bow down and go "ooohhhhh"...

when in reality he should be "President of Library Books", or something, and not POTUS!!!
...sorry, had a rough week, and reading about more of this nonsense doesn't help. (I'll stay out of this now..
..please continue while I go get a glass of wine).

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 06:35 PM

Component Changes Made to the Global Dow

NEW YORK, Mar 27, 2009 (GlobeNewswire via COMTEX) -- Dow Jones Indexes, a leading global index provider, today announced component changes in The Global Dow. Component changes to The Global Dow are decided by editors of The Wall Street Journal.
The following nine companies will be removed from The Global Dow: AXA S.A. (France, Insurance, CS.FR), Cemex S.A.B. de C.V. Series CPO (Mexico, Construction & Materials, CEMEX.MX), Citigroup Inc. (United States, Banks, C), Deutsche Post AG (Germany, Industrial Goods & Services, DPW.XE), Gamesa Corporacion Tecnologica S.A. (Spain, Oil & Gas, GAM.MC), General Motors Corp. (United States, Automobiles & Parts, GM), ING Groep N.V. (Netherlands, Insurance, INGA.AE), National Bank of Greece S.A. (Greece, Banks, ETE.AT) and Royal Bank of Scotland Group PLC (United Kingdom, Banks, RBS.LN).
Companies added to The Global Dow are: Amgen Inc. (United States, Health Care, AMGN), Anheuser-Busch InBev N.V. (Belgium, Food & Beverage, ABI.BT), Bridgestone Corp. (Japan, Automobiles & Parts, 5108.TO), Canon Inc. (Japan, Technology, 7751.TO), CLP Holdings Ltd. (Hong Kong, Utilities, 0002.HK), Esprit Holdings Ltd. (Hong Kong, Retail, 0330.HK), Medco Health Solutions Inc. (United States, Health Care, MHS), NASDAQ OMX Group Inc. (United States, Financial Services, NDAQ), and Travelers Cos. Inc. (United States, Insurance, TRV).
"These changes in The Global Dow are off-schedule, but we felt they were necessary because of the extraordinary market conditions worldwide since the index was launched last November 11," said John A. Prestbo, editor and executive director, Dow Jones Indexes. "We will conduct the regular annual review of The Global Dow's components in September."
The changes in The Global Dow will be effective before the open of trading on Wednesday, April 1, 2009.
The float-adjusted market capitalization of the reconstituted Global Dow increased to US$6.748 trillion from US$6.646 trillion.
The Global Dow measures the performance of 150 stocks of companies that are established global leaders as well as those poised for future global leadership. The Global Dow is a blue-chip representation of the world's leading companies as selected by editors of Dow Jones & Company. Stocks in The Global Dow are equally weighted and are rebalanced annually in September.
For more information on The Global Dow, please visit
Company additions to and deletions from The Global Dow do not in any way reflect an opinion on the investment merits of the company.

Despite FOIA Victory, FBN Finds Government Holds Back

For a government that espouses greater transparency, the Obama Administration’s definition of the term can seem rather opaque.

The overwhelming majority of some 10,000 pages released to the FOX Business Network in the cable channel’s successful Freedom of Information Act lawsuit against the Department of the Treasury seeking documents related to the Troubled Asset Recovery Program were redacted.

That left thousands of blank documents, whited-out sentences and page after page of little more than lists of email recipients, senders and subject lines.

FOIA experts say FOX Business’s situation -- and frustration -- is hardly unusual.

“This is part of the inherent limitation of FOIA,” said Rick Blum, coordinator of the Sunshine in Government Initiative, a nonprofit coalition of media groups. “FOIA is a very powerful tool that allows the public to obtain documents it should get from the government. But there are a lot of problems with it.”

For instance, a tactic often employed by the government to stall release of a given document is to cite a deep backlog of requests and then delay until interest in that document wanes. Another tactic for withholding information is to cite one of several legal exemptions that allow for redactions, and then black out much of the information released.

Recent reforms to FOIA now require the government to explain why certain information has been redacted, and that’s an improvement, said Blum.

“They need to very clearly give you the statutory basis for the blackout, so if you want to fight it, at least you know what you’re fighting,” he said.
More at Link...

What a waste of paper...almost 11k sheets of spit...

Optimism about U.S. banks might be misplaced

[edit on 3/27/2009 by Hx3_1963]

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 08:44 PM
reply to post by Hx3_1963

Change, and transparency, uh huh, we are getting a lot of that right now.

Just another politician for the status quo. Makes me sick.

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 09:17 PM
reply to post by Hastobemoretolife
Yeah it ain't going to much corruption now...

FTSE 100 and Dow Jones predicted to tumble 28pc

Tim Howkins said he expects there to be further gloomy economic news around the world, causing the blue-chip index to fall to as low as 2,800 and Wall Street's leading index to crash to 5,700. The FTSE 100 is now at 3898.8 and the Dow Jones is at 7810.2

"Those falls would be pretty apocalyptic from where the markets are now," he said. "But the world is getting worse rather than better. There is still a lot of bad news to come from the global economy.
More at Link...

I agree...false bear rally...nothings changed...

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 09:40 PM
reply to post by Hx3_1963

Yea, I tell ya it was quite a bear rally based off of a stretched barely truthful memo though. If anything it showed how volatile the market really is.

28% would wipe out all the gains of this rally and then some. Crazy stuff. Not only that but journalist that report the truth seem to be dropping like flies.

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 09:51 PM
reply to post by Hastobemoretolife
Yep and it's gonna get worse...the worse it gets...

See that Congresswoman from minnasota calling for a orginized revolt tonite?

Crazy Rep. Michele Bachmann Calls for Armed Revolution
new thread lol

March: In Like a Bear. Out like a Bull?

[edit on 3/27/2009 by Hx3_1963]

posted on Mar, 27 2009 @ 10:00 PM

Originally posted by Hx3_1963

Regulator "blessed" backdating at OTS: official

"A Treasury spokesperson said the department would make a determination later if any further action may be warranted after news on Thursday that the acting director of the Office of Thrift Supervision was placed on leave.'"

]Dude you posted this scrambled egg nonsense. Can you make it right?

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